Hi-quality ARs sure seem "sold out" a lot!

Technosavant and Quentin covered it. I'm not saying every single rifle put out by BCM, DD or any other company is always superior to every single rifle that some other company put out. My claim was, and remains, that there is an objectively superior quality of parts and quality control in certain rifle companies compared to others, and that one would expect that quality difference to manifest among the thousands of rifles that are put out by the industry, moreso over time. If your rifles work, great, good for you, rock on and I'm happy for you.

And just so you all know I'm not some jerk gunsnob, I have four ARs: a frankengun someone I don't know built with parts I don't know who made (I took it in trade from a guy who needed what I had and who had only that to offer me); a Bushmaster, a Daniel Defense M4 and a BCM EAG Carbine.

Guess what. All four have worked every time I have pulled the trigger. So far. In order of my confidence that they continue to work, how do you think I rank them? Think they are all the same? I know they aren't, and if you are honest with yourself and with all of us, you do, too.

Carry on.
 
Actually; I was being facetious. I am quite familiar with the TDP and Mil-Spec. Part of my 21 years in the military was working CATM on quite a few M-16's. Sorry; but for the individual person, who owns the individual AR-15, for me, the TDP/Mil-Spec doesn't mean a thing. I'm not impressed with it. Sorry; that's just me.

I don't need to shoot thousands of rounds through a gun to determine if it's good. There's enough empirical data out there. I lurk through a lot of Manufacturer Specific forums. (Not generic ones like this, ar15.com, etc...). I look at the hundreds and thousands of posts and I look for the "Help Me" type posts; compared to the "accessories, scopes, look at my new toy, etc..." type posts. When you're on a Smith specific or Bush specific, or DD specific, etc... sight, you don't have people trying to impress other with my brand is better than yours. People are more honest because they ALL have the same brand. Especially when there's a problem.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Colt, BCM, DD, and some others are quality rifles. But there are other quality rifles out there that aren't the same mil-spec TDP, or price. Some people think that a Colt, DD, BCM, etc... can be bought for the same price basically as a "Lower Quality" gun. Well; if you're in the "Retail Price" world maybe. But I don't buy at retail price. I am patient and can wait for sales. I've said in other threads and forums that if ALL WEAPONS were at retail price, then no doubt I would buy a BCM, Colt, DD, or a number of others in that range if I JUST HAD TO HAVE ONE. Luckily for me, there isn't any gun that I HAVE TO HAVE. So, I can wait. I own/owned 3 AR's. Still have 2 of them. I've shot plenty of colts in the military. I understand the need for mil-spec in that environment. But the guns I still own are a Frankenstein and an M&P15-OR. The Frankenstein, I have over 20,000 rounds through it. That's with a 5 year break of never shooting it about 15 years ago because I was overseas most of that time. I did put a new barrel on it at about 17,000 rounds. Mainly because it was steel and rusted really badly from leaving it unattended for those 5 years. My other I still have is a new M&P15 I bought this past christmas. I've had it 3 months and already have almost 1500 rounds through it. And I bought it brand new on sale, saved $300, and got it for $649.

So for that price, I think "FOR ME", that my M&P15 is better than a colt or DD. Why? Because I don't need to pay extra for an M16 BCG. An AR15 BCG works quite well in a semi-auto AR. i don't need to spend extra on a 1:7 barrel. I don't shoot 75 grain match bullets. My 1:9 barrel with 4140 steel is fine for a semi-auto. (I'm not shooting full auto and heating it that high). I'm quite satisfied with batch inspections from a company with the reputation of Smith & Wesson. I'm ok with a carbine buffer instead of an "H" buffer. (I replaced it anyway with an ST-T2). Point is; I didn't have to pay and additional $300-$500 for a gun because of a name or because of a Mil-Spec standard. For an individual gun that is semi-auto and shooting 55-65 grain bullets, I am perfectly fine.

FWIW: My frankenstein was made up of some of the cheapest parts I could find at a gun-show. I didn't order one part. Simply walked around gun shows and found a barrel here, a bolt there, a trigger here, a stock over there, barrel here, etc... For what it's worth, the basic, stripped down lower, as bare as it can be, which is the registered part of the weapon, is a bushmaster. I'll be honest and say a bushmaster 20 years ago is not like today. Today; they are one of the PICKIEST guns when it comes to ammo.

Anyway; I do my research. I look for guns that people AREN'T COMPLAINING about. That's one reason i went with the M&P15. The other reason was because just about every owner of one has said the damn thing will shoot any ammo you can find, and it eats it all. They weren't lying. I've shot 5 different brands of steel case (AMMO I PREFER) and 4 brands of brass ammo; 1500 rounds total in 3 months; and I couldn't get this gun to mess up if I tried. Anyway; there's nothing that the $1000-$1500 AR has that I need or want. Not for that price. But I will agree that if there were never sales; and I was impatient and could wait; and had to pay FULL RETAIL; then I'd buy a BCM or a Colt for the same price. Luckily I don't have to pay those prices, and I don't have to pay for things that aren't important. At least not important to me.
 
I look for guns that people AREN'T COMPLAINING about.


That's not a bad way to do it. There are a few brands that tend to draw extremely few complaints. I don't think I'd consider them 100% equal, but I couldn't fault somebody for buying them. The brand list of astonishingly few complaints isn't long, but RRA, S&W, BCM, Colt, Noveske, and DD seem to be darn near universally loved by their owners.
 
But if you look there are some sales on higher end guns not as many but you can certainly assemble a gun for about the same price, and I'm not talking retail here.

Example:

BCM upper mid-length 16" or 14.5"| $399(BCM)
BCM BCG w/CH | $150(BCM)
PSA complete lower | $239 (palmetto armory)
total shipping | $30
trans fees for lower | $10-30(varies by your FFL)
***********************
Total: $828-849



For that price you have a fighting carbine at still an affordable price. I found all these with 20 min of research there are some better deals out there but I did not post those as an example since they were out of stock.

Can you find cheaper AR? Yes, but the price is negligible and while I understand not everyone needs an AR as a fighting rifle I would at least expect them to look into higher quality. It may prevent a few headaches at the range.

If the consumer becomes more knowledgeable and demands higher quality perhaps in the future we could see some other companies step up to the plate and offer higher quality guns.
 
When demand is higher than supply, this is the result.

I do have it on good authority that Daniel Defense is adding another CNC machine and other items to go with it to try to keep up with demand...
 
BCM upper mid-length 16" or 14.5"| $399(BCM)
BCM BCG w/CH | $150(BCM)
PSA complete lower | $239 (palmetto armory)
total shipping | $30
trans fees for lower | $10-30(varies by your FFL)
***********************
Total: $828-849

Espanzi; I admit that is a decent price. But I got my M&P15-OR on sale for $649. And while some will argue; which I really don't care; I would say that my M&P15 is just as reliable, dependable and accurate as the BCM. (For what I use it for). Now; if we were comparing head to head retail prices, I'd take the BCM or colt or even DD. But on sale; saving anywhere from $200-$500; I'll take the M&P15 any day of the week.
 
christcorp
Espanzi; I admit that ($828-849) is a decent price. But I got my M&P15-OR on sale for $649. And while some will argue; which I really don't care; I would say that my M&P15 is just as reliable, dependable and accurate as the BCM. (For what I use it for). Now; if we were comparing head to head retail prices, I'd take the BCM or colt or even DD. But on sale; saving anywhere from $200-$500; I'll take the M&P15 any day of the week.

christcorp, to be fair not everyone can get the discount you got and many other brands offer military and LE discounts, too. Also your rifle is an OR so you should add the cost of sights to match other ARs that have a FSB.

I built a Daniel Defense 16" LW CHF midlength with MOE stocks, DD BCG and charging handle, irons front and rear, S&W lower/Stag LPK/BCM receiver extension/M4 stock kit/H buffer with a sling and PMAG for about $850 including tax and shipping (most of the shipping was free). And the barrel is hammer forged. That compares well to the cost of a basic AR from S&W, RRA, Bushmaster and others but is a better gun. No doubt I had to go through a lot more effort to reach this price but it was enjoyable building the rifle over a few months.
 
Quentin; you are quite correct. My $649 price tag may not be common, but I've also seen others on the forum mention getting their M&P15 for around the $600-$650 range. These were from individuals who didn't get an S&W rebate.

Also; I built my first AR. It's a frankenstein that I've had for more than 20 years. Other than the stripped down bushmaster lower; "Stripped all the way down"; there probably isn't a "High end quality part" in it at all. All parts were bought at gun shows within a 1 week period. I know I have 20,000 rounds at least through it.

I have no problems with BCM, Colt, DD, L&G, or any of these. And dollar for dollar, head to head, I would even say they are probably better quality. My only points are:

1. If we're not looking at suggested retail prices, and some, like my smith is on sale, and we're looking at a $300-$500 difference, I think it's now a new ball game.
2. Apples must be compared to apples. And that means a person's use for the rifle must be determined. I.e. Many tout that the 1:7 twist barrel is BETTER than the 1:9. But if a person has no intention of ever shooting a 70+ grain bullet, is this "Difference" even significant? If one company has a mid-length gas system compared to another that uses a carbine-length gas system, but with the gas port size of the mid-length. (Effectively making it "Overgassed"), but the individual 95%+ of the time is only shooting .223 ammo compared to 5.56 ammo, is the difference even significant. Same for MANY of the mil-spec supposed "Quality" differences. In other words, differences only matter if they apply.
3. Fortunately, rifles don't have feelings and personalities. No one ever told them that because they AREN'T a colt, BCM, DD, etc... that they're "Suppose to Break" sooner. Yet, there are people out there that will tell others that they shouldn't use their AR for home defense, because they really can't trust it. Because it's not the "Quality" of Mil-Spec. Yet, this rifle has more than 2000 rounds through it without a glitch. I wonder what the magic number is before a person can claim their rifle is reliable and dependable.

So I have absolutely no problems with the colts, BCM, DD, etc... that are out there. And if there were no such things as sales, and everything was sold at suggested retail price, I would definitely get a BCM or similar. And there are definitely some guns that I won't buy, because I've read enough problems from owners. (I only care about what actual owners have to say. The "Pros from Dover" don't impress me at all). But some weapons like modern day Bushmasters, seem to be very PICKY when it comes to ammo. According to many bushmaster owners. I have a problem with Atlantic, because their source for parts are too varied. So, they don't have any real consistency. Some are great. Some are rocks.

There's a lot of very good AR owners and posters who are knowledgeable and still practical and open minded. I actually consider you one of these. There are some; on certain forums; (You know what I'm talking about); who are complete Gun Snobs and arrogant. I simply want individuals, in this case AR15 owners/potential owners; to get an AR that is "BEST FOR THEM". And sometimes, the $1000+ colt, bcm, DD, etc... isn't best. There are some that will argue that they are ALWAYS best, because they are MIL-SPEC/TDP compliant; and thus worth the extra money. The truth is; Mil-Spec/TDP compliant is only "Better" if you have need for those specs.
 
Christcorp, you have a lot of knowledge and also try to help people. We all have different perspectives and if a new person is smart they will take something from everyone and eventually form their own opinion then buy what works for them.

Fortunately the quality of most ARs is high today, much higher when doing a build 20 years ago, so this is a good time to be buying a new rifle. Though most new people won't do it, I think many, many hours of research will help sort out all the options out there and what works best for a particular application. This is not just brand but barrel profile, sights, etc.

So maybe shortages aren't always bad, it gives some people more time to look at what's available.
 
I simply want individuals, in this case AR15 owners/potential owners; to get an AR that is "BEST FOR THEM". And sometimes, the $1000+ colt, bcm, DD, etc... isn't best. There are some that will argue that they are ALWAYS best, because they are MIL-SPEC/TDP compliant; and thus worth the extra money. The truth is; Mil-Spec/TDP compliant is only "Better" if you have need for those specs.

You are very correct. The problem is, the flip side of the snobs who say "Your rifle is garbage, get a DD/BCM/Colt/etc. for any and every purpose" is the side where people say "My Blackthorne worked fine when I fired 200 rounds over the last couple months, it's as good as the BCM." Both sides are incorrect.

There's a continual capability/price scale, where the buyer needs to consider the use of the rifle, how much one is already considering spending, and what might be had at slightly more or less. Sometimes the law of diminishing returns bites down hard (example: a great deal on a S&W M&P for $600ish, a Colt and BCM runs over $1K), sometimes not much more gets a LOT more (someone is staring at a DPMS priced at $800 on the same table with a $900 S&W M&P).
 
You are very correct. The problem is, the flip side of the snobs who say "Your rifle is garbage, get a DD/BCM/Colt/etc. for any and every purpose" is the side where people say "My Blackthorne worked fine when I fired 200 rounds over the last couple months, it's as good as the BCM." Both sides are incorrect.

There's a continual capability/price scale, where the buyer needs to consider the use of the rifle, how much one is already considering spending, and what might be had at slightly more or less. Sometimes the law of diminishing returns bites down hard (example: a great deal on a S&W M&P for $600ish, a Colt and BCM runs over $1K), sometimes not much more gets a LOT more (someone is staring at a DPMS priced at $800 on the same table with a $900 S&W M&P).

I definitely agree. I've said many, many times, that if there were no sales, and we were paying normal retail prices, and we were comparing AR's, and I simply had to have one; then for the price, a BCM or Colt would probably be the better deal. But some companies do have sales. S&W has quite a few of them that get passed down to the retailers. The $1069 M&P15-OR I got at christmas was normally $949 at Sportsman's Warehouse. But they had a 3 day Christmas sale with $200 off. Plus; there was a $100 S&W rebate. But I've also read of others getting M&P's, RR's, Spike's, and a few others on some really good sales. I just don't see Colt, BCM, DD, LMT, and such having any decent sales. BCM is almost always $1000-$1300 for their complete rifles. DD, Stag, and others are in the $600-$800 "Or More" just for their uppers. Even the cheapest LMT runs about $500 for just the upper. And finding any of these on sale is usually impossible. They are quite "Proud" of their products, and they know there are people out there that will always pay their prices because of their name.

Not that they aren't good products. They are. And like I said; head to head with normal prices, the BCM, Colt, LMT, etc... will win my money every time. But when the others have sales; then the Colt, BCM, LMT, DD, etc... in my opinion isn't worth the extra $300-$600. But the final decision has to be from the individual. For some; the name and 100% mil-spec "Minus full auto" is very important to them. Mil-Spec means something to them. And that's great if they want to buy those AR's. But I can shoot my 5000+ rounds a year through my M&P15 and be confident in it's abilities. And while we're at it; that's why I shot Bear, MFS, Barnaul, Tula, and Wolf. On my average amount of shooting; 5000 rounds a year, my M&P15 will shoot anything I feed it, and I will save approximately $1000 in a year shooting this much ammo. I can buy a LOT more ammo; $50 replacement bolt; $120 replacement BCG; hell, I could buy an entirely NEW M&P15OR and still back $300. So it all depends on a person's use of the gun.

For me; I'm not into competition and marksmanship shooting. I have no need to go to carbine type classes. 95% of all of my shots will be at 100-125 yards. I don't rapid fire to point of getting the gas tube red-hot. 95% of the ammo I shoot is .223 and NOT 5.56mm. So all that means that "FOR ME", I didn't need to spend extra on a 1:7 twist barrel. No need for an M16 BCG, the AR15 BCG is fine. I don't worry about a carbine length gas system with a mid-length gas port. (Over-gassed). All of those things provide no benefit to me at all. So; it was nice to get a quality AR, without having to pay extra for a bunch of features that I had no need or use for. But there's obviously a lot of people out there that believe they need those things. And I'm sure many of them do. And that's why it's good that they can buy them. For me; I'm ok. My Frankenstein is 20 years old. It's made from every conceivable used part you could find out a gun show. It's got over 20,000 rounds through it. My M&P15 is 3 months old and now has 1500 rounds through it. (500 just last weekend). And I have every bit of confidence in both of them "For my needs". Home defense, punching paper, the occasional prairie dog or coyote. For me, that's good enough.
 
Florida gun-shows have no shortage of Colt AR-15's OR ammo from what I see going around, anything with "Colt" stamped on it is just an automatic $1000.00 more that's all.
 
In March of 2010 I bought an AR-15 Carbine (for $1199.) from the extreme left side of "The Chart" on the M4carbine.net forum; its got 7,600 rounds thru it currently with no problems and still has bench-rest accuracy. I haven't felt any need to look for "a better AR".
 
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In March of 2010 I bought an AR-15 Carbine (for $1199.) from the extreme left side of "The Chart" on the M4carbine.net forum; its got 7,600 rounds thru it currently with no problems and still has bench-rest accuracy. I haven't felt any need to look for "a better AR".

Well; depending on who you talk to, if you got it from the "Far Left" side of "THE CHART", then there's nothing that is "BETTER" to be looking for. I guess my question is; "What's your point"?

Mine is in the "Middle of the Chart". I've had it 3 months. I've got 1500 rounds through it. (About the same percentage as yours). I too have had no problems with it at all; and also have "No need to look for "a better AR".
 
And I've got a Vulcan that didn't quite make it on the chart. It hasn't had any problems but I haven't gotten around to shooting it yet. Guess I don't need to look for a better AR either. :p

J/K :D

Anyway, the point I guess is what's right for each of us falls somewhere in the middle.
 
christcorp wrote: "Whats your point ?"
:D I know some guys who went conservative (cheap ?) and bought from the right side of "The Chart" out of the gate, and then 2 or 3 more rifles later while hunting for "a better one" along the chart spectrum, ended up spending about 3 times what a Colt would have cost for their first purchase. There, I said it (Colt).
"A better one" is what guys percieve it to be. Flame away !:D
 
Quentin2 wrote: "And I've got a Vulcan that didn't quite make it onto The Chart".
Be sure to wear your safety glasses when you get around to shootin' it.:)

(Next time I get out to the western United States, I'd really like to go shooting with you 2 guys.)
 
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