Heller Decision AFFIRMED, INDIVIDUAL right (Scalia)

tatera said:
I think the obvious message is the SCOTUS votes along party lines (5/4 split) - choose your president wisely. We were one justice shy of a complete catastrophy.
A vote along party lines would be 7-2.

A Republican in the white house does not necessarily mean an strict constructionist on the bench. Especially when congress is controlled by Democrats.

Here is how the Justices voted and the president who appointed them.

Affirming Heller:
Scalia - Appointed by Ronald Reagan (R)
Roberts - Appointed by George W. Bush (R)
Kennedy - Appointed by Ronald Reagan (R)
Thomas - Appointed by George H. W. Bush (R)
Alito - Appointed by George W. Bush (R)

Dissenting in Heller
Stevens - Appointed by Millard Fillmore (W)
Souter - Appointed by George H. W. Bush (R)
Ginsburg - Appointed by Bill Clinton (D)
Breyer - Appointed by Bill Clinton (D)

Couldn't resist a dig at the eldest (and arguably the most liberal) member of the SCOTUS, Justice Stevens, who was appointed by Gerald R. Ford (R).
 
I am astonished by the arrogance of the four dissenting Justices. After stating their idealogically-based postion in the first three paragraphs of the dissent, they begin laying out the support for their position in the fourth paragraph (Heller, 69th page, dissent page 2) by referring to Miller:

In 1934, Congress enacted the National Firearms Act, the first major federal firearms law. Upholding a conviction under that Act, this Court held that... Miller, 307 U. S., at 178.

Miller certainly contains some ambiguous language, but two parts of Miller are crystal clear:
  • The basis of the case from the lower court:
    The District Court held that section 11 of the Act violates the Second Amendment. It accordingly sustained the demurrer and quashed the indictment.
  • And the concluding sentence of the decision:
    Reversed and remanded.
Supreme Court Justices undoubtedly understand that "upheld" differs from "reversed" and "conviction" differs from "quashed the indictment." This glaring difference is not a mere misinterpretation on the part of the dissenting Justices, but a knowing and willful mistatement of fact. Attempting to peddle such a fabrication in a Supreme Court decision is contemptible.
 
Incorporation may not be too far away:

FN23 With respect to Cruikshank’s continuing validity on incorporation, a question not presented by this case, we note that Cruikshank also said that the First Amendment did not apply against the States and did not engage in the sort of Fourteenth Amendment inquiry required by our later cases. Our later decisions in Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252, 265 (1886) and Miller v. Texas, 153 U. S. 535, 538 (1894), reaffirmed that the Second Amendment applies only to the Federal Government.
 
Two of those are very correct, one is flat wrong and none of them make any comment whatsoever to the legailty of the DC Ban. Contrastly, the majority opinion was concise, backed by facts and spoke directly to the heart of the legal matter. It should have been a 9-0 decision.

Yes, it should have been a 9-0 decision, but 4 socialist, bench legislatin' gas bags voted (quite predictably), to strip us of our right to defend ourselves.

That's a scary realization re: the precarious nature of the court.

I'm not sure if the DC bureaucrats were just too stupid to wait for an anti-gun friendly court, or if they were under time constraits to file the appeal. Either way, we'll take the gift horse.:)

O'bama will appoint the head of the ACLU, or Hillary, or --well you get the picture. McCain promised to appoint constitutionalists.
 
Finally, FINALLY the militia argument has been put to rest.

I know the case doesn't go as far as we would have liked and the 5-4 vote was ridiculous but, for this old guy, FINALLY the militia argument has been put to rest!! :D

I was surprised to hear Obama now saying he is for self-defense firearm rights. He's never said that before. In fact, there has never been an anti-gun bill he was against IIRC. I know this means nothing and Obama is probably still rabidly anti-gun, but I'll worry about that another day.

Right now I'm one happy old guy!! All my adult life I've dreamed of this day. It has FINALLY arrived!:D

Thank you SCOTUS and thank you George W. Bush for picking two great justices.

Edit: I went to the range today and fired off 50 rounds with my Colt SAA. It made me think of a better time. Wait, that better time is NOW!! Someone pinch me, I must be dreaming.:D
 
A step in the right direction, but only a step

After haveing read the decision (and only skimmed the disenting opinions), sever things are fairly clear, and many more are kind of blurry (but that is the way our legal system likes to work).

Individual right to own guns for self protection: very clear. especially handguns in the home.

Seperate from militia use: also very clear. However, refering to the Miller case many times (and even the M16) when discussing military type arms. They referred several times to "arms in common use" and from this I get that while there still needs to be a fight over full auto ownership, ownership of semi auto rifles like the AR 15 ought to be considered as "in common use" by the public, in other words, us "unorganised militia" members. Therefore, I see this as a firm foundation on which to overturn those "assault weapons" laws that only restrict semi auto firearms because of their military appearance.

I don't see us as being able to overturn the 34 NFA any time soon, BUT we might get the 86 freeze repealed, and possibly some of the NFA restrictions eased a bit.

The high court repeatedly inferred that some restrictions are just fine, including registration and licensing (as long as not arbitrary or capricious). As long as there is no outright ban or prohibition the court is ok with it.

The CCW issue is cloudy as well. Briefly touched on, but not well addressed. Many states allow open carry as a right (but not in certain places, which the high court upheld), but view CCW as a privelege, for which a license is needed. The high courts decision specifically stated that they are not ruling on CCW at this time. No ruling means what is law today remains so. It does not mean that current laws are Constitutional, all it means is the court has made no ruling, so everything continues as it is.

The antis are still going to claim we have no need (or even no right) to military type weapons, or semiauto assault weapons, but they can no longer claim the 2nd Amendment only applies to militias and as a collective, not an individual right. The Supreme Court has ruled otherwise! Finally!!
 
I'm setting myself up for some flames here but....

How many of you followed the instructions on the thread to actually read the decision before commenting?
I am seeing mostly a bunch of waa hoos and emotional responses.
Thank you, Playboypenguin, BillCa, and a few others for some actual thoughtful analysis.
Those of you who are noticing for the first time Justice Scalia's sense of decorum, shame on you.
It is a long standing practice of his to denigrate other justices in the highest court of the land.
It does nothing to add weight to his arguments, causes people who may otherwise be persuaded to discount many of his views, and does damage to the overall credibility of the most important court in the land, as well as damaging his own.
For those of you claiming that Scalia and the conservative portion of the court is strictly constructionist, Read the recent decision limiting damages due to the Exxon Valdez decision. There is plenty of legislating going on by both sides.
One more controversial statement.
After reading the entire historical context mentioned in this decision, it is becoming apparent that it may be the opinion of the court that the cause of the confusion in the wording and context of the second amendment is the circumstances of the time. It appears that the framers wanted, without explicitly saying so, to limit the right to bear arms to those eligible to serve in the militia at the time. That is, white males aged 18 to 45. Armed insurrection by slaves was a very real fear at the time.

asbestos suit at the ready......
 
DM, based on many States enacting statutes that expressly stated an individual right to firearms ownership for self-defense and other purposes, along with the fact that many of those States enacted their "2nd Amendment" statutes prior to the enactment of the Federal 2nd Amendment, Justice Scalia concluded:

"The historical narrative that petitioners must endorse
would thus treat the Federal Second Amendment as an
odd outlier, protecting a right unknown in state constitutions
or at English common law, based on little more than
an overreading of the prefatory clause."

Many States had already "ruled" for an individual, self-defense right. No mention of a militia is made in some of those States' statutes IIRC.

You can limit ownership to white males without further limiting it to a militia. Had the founding fathers been shown to "hide" their true intentions as you opine, the militia prefatory clause would have been struck down as unconstitutional decades ago IMHO.

Justice Scalia prefaced his conclusion I pasted above by stating:

That of the nine state constitutional protections for the right to bear arms enacted
immediately after 1789 at least seven unequivocally
protected an individual citizen’s right to self-defense is
strong evidence that that is how the founding generation
conceived of the right.

(The Bill of Rights were ratified in 1791.)
 
Like most people here I'm happy with the decision and agree that a 5/4 vote on this was rediculous, but unlike alot of people on this site I live in an unfree state and an even worse city(Chicago). This fight is far from over and even tho the decision specifically said banning handguns was unconstitutional my genius of a Mayor still thinks his handgun ban will hold up and plans to spend my tax dollars to fight a lawsuit that was already filled against the city.

link to story

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-supreme-court-gun-ban,0,3522044.story
 
Incorporation may not be too far away:

Quote:
FN23 With respect to Cruikshank’s continuing validity on incorporation, a question not presented by this case, we note that Cruikshank also said that the First Amendment did not apply against the States and did not engage in the sort of Fourteenth Amendment inquiry required by our later cases. Our later decisions in Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252, 265 (1886) and Miller v. Texas, 153 U. S. 535, 538 (1894), reaffirmed that the Second Amendment applies only to the Federal Government.
So would the first case brought outside of DC (Chicago, for example) include an attempt to incorporate the 2nd amendment?
 
Maybe they will try to implement a death penalty that actually works in a timely fashion that will disuade animals from commiting horrible acts because there is a strict penalty that is enforced ??
Maybe they will quit worrying about animals rights and protecting them at every turn in jail ?
Well i guess im being unrealistic again, but im extremely happy with the decision today anyway. ;)
 
It is a long standing practice of his to denigrate other justices in the highest court of the land. It does nothing to add weight to his arguments, causes people who may otherwise be persuaded to discount many of his views, and does damage to the overall credibility of the most important court in the land, as well as damaging his own.

I disagree completely. When someone is appointed to the highest judicial office in the land and affirms that they are going to uphold the constitution and are going to carry out their duties without regard to political bias and then they have the audacity to reference standards of international law to interpret our constitution, or, as they did here, issue a dissent that flies in the face of logic, legislative history, and the easily found commonly known belief of the framers regarding firearms, they they are very much deserving of any excoriation they recieve.

I would think that the 'highlighting' that Scalia is famous for is actually helpful in displaying the stark legal contrast that exist in these opinions. With such a difference in reasoning and conclusion, one side is undoubtedly wrong.
 
It is very easy to disagree with someone, or state that they are entirely wrong, in a tactful, reasonable way. To deliberately make comments that are inflammatory on a body that must be held in high regard is counter-productive.
What you find ridiculous, others may find reasonable. Or at least plausible. Overstating your case diminishes your credibility.
Scalia has been known to deliberately disregard legislative intent himself.
His rulings weakening the ADA are an obvious example.
To state that the dissent's view here is obviously unconstitutional reduces an awful lot of very persuasive argument on both sides to something unrealistically simplistic. If it is so obvious, why did the decision take 100+ pages?
In regards to the statement that many of the states had already written laws outlining this as an individual right, I agree.
Which were they? I haven't researched that far.
How many of them were state with large slave populations?
Note the many references, even in those statutes, to the rights of FREE men.
I know it is uncomfortable to face, but there are parts of the constitution that were racist.
The founders were not the perfect, all knowing men some of us would like them to be.
And in case I haven't made it clear, I am happy that an individual right was found, and hope that this will at least assure that may issue states will now be forced to grant possession rights, and under very minor restrictions, if any.
It appears Justice Scalia left open the door for there to be a right to home possession without even a license, saying this issue was left open because it was not asked.
 
To deliberately make comments that are inflammatory on a body that must be held in high regard is counter-productive.
To write a fantasy novel and pass it off as serious constitutional scholarship - as Justice Stevens' clerks did - in a body that must be held in high regard is also counterproductive.
 
I understand DM when you talk about the militia prefatory clause.

It's there and that is the reality. The militias are definitely part of the 2nd Amendment IMHO.

That's why, to me, it was so important for the militia clause to be defined and put into context by the SCOTUS. FINALLY!!:D

I can see where someone might conclude the 2nd Amendment was mainly to arm militias. A person could conclude that that was the purpose however, when I read the court cases, ancillary papers, discussions, State constitutions, etc., of that time, I cannot conclude that the militias were the only concern when the Founding Fathers enacted the 2nd Amendment.

With the wealth of "other" opinions and statutes existing at the time the 2nd Amendment was ratified (or shortly thereafter) I find it very puzzling that the liberal wing of the Court found for the militia, "collective" right, unless I conclude that they had an activist agenda. Something Justices of the SCOTUS should not have IMHO.

Remember, the liberal wing of the SCOTUS held that the 2nd Amendment was only for arming militias and the government is free to ban any type of weapon they choose. Their arguments in the dissents were very weak IMHO.

Let me repeat, the liberal wing of the SCOTUS held the 2nd Amendment was only for arming militias and the government is free to ban any type of weapon they choose. How in the world does that truly provide for the "security of a free State?"

To me, that is VERY extreme and misguided. Along the same lines of extremism that a racist exhibits IMHO.

EDIT : DM - Here is the excerpt discussing the 4 pre-second amendment constitutions and the total of nine were enacted by 1820. Some were Southern States.

Two of them— (i.e., of the four)
Pennsylvania and Vermont—clearly adopted individual
rights unconnected to militia service. Pennsylvania’s
Declaration of Rights of 1776 said: “That the people have a
right to bear arms for the defence of themselves, and the
state . . . .” §XIII, in 5 Thorpe 3082, 3083 (emphasis
added). In 1777, Vermont adopted the identical provision,
except for inconsequential differences in punctuation and
capitalization. See Vt. Const., ch. 1, §15, in 6 id., at 3741.
North Carolina also codified a right to bear arms in
1776: “That the people have a right to bear arms, for the
defence of the State . . . .” Declaration of Rights §XVII, in
id., at 2787, 2788. This could plausibly be read to support
only a right to bear arms in a militia—but that is a peculiar
way to make the point in a constitution that elsewhere
repeatedly mentions the militia explicitly. See §§14, 18,
35, in 5 id., 2789, 2791, 2793. Many colonial statutes
required individual arms-bearing for public-safety reasons—
such as the 1770 Georgia law that “for the security
and defence of this province from internal dangers and
insurrections” required those men who qualified for militia
duty individually “to carry fire arms” “to places of public
worship.” 19 Colonial Records of the State of Georgia 137–
139 (A. Candler ed. 1911 (pt. 2)) (emphasis added). That
broad public-safety understanding was the connotation
given to the North Carolina right by that State’s Supreme
Court in 1843. See State v. Huntly, 3 Ired. 418, 422–423.
The 1780 Massachusetts Constitution presented another
variation on the theme: “The people have a right to keep
and to bear arms for the common defence. . . .” Pt. First,
Art. XVII, in 3 Thorpe 1888, 1892. Once again, if one
gives narrow meaning to the phrase “common defence”
this can be thought to limit the right to the bearing of
arms in a state-organized military force. But once again
the State’s highest court thought otherwise. Writing for
the court in an 1825 libel case, Chief Justice Parker wrote:
Cite as: 554 U. S. ____ (2008) 29
Opinion of the Court
“The liberty of the press was to be unrestrained, but he
who used it was to be responsible in cases of its abuse; like
the right to keep fire arms, which does not protect him
who uses them for annoyance or destruction.” Commonwealth
v. Blanding, 20 Mass. 304, 313–314. The analogy
makes no sense if firearms could not be used for any individual
purpose at all. See also Kates, Handgun Prohibition
and the Original Meaning of the Second Amendment,
82 Mich. L. Rev. 204, 244 (1983) (19th-century courts
never read “common defence” to limit the use of weapons
to militia service).
We therefore believe that the most likely reading of all
four of these pre-Second Amendment state constitutional
provisions is that they secured an individual right to bear
arms for defensive purposes. Other States did not include
rights to bear arms in their pre-1789 constitutions—
although in Virginia a Second Amendment analogue was
proposed (unsuccessfully) by Thomas Jefferson. (It read:
“No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms
[within his own lands or tenements].”18 1 The Papers of
Thomas Jefferson 344 (J. Boyd ed. 1950)).
Between 1789 and 1820, nine States adopted Second
Amendment analogues. Four of them—Kentucky, Ohio,
Indiana, and Missouri—referred to the right of the people
to “bear arms in defence of themselves and the State.” See
n. 8, supra. Another three States—Mississippi, Connecticut,
and Alabama—used the even more individualistic
phrasing that each citizen has the “right to bear arms in
defence of himself and the State.” See ibid. Finally, two
States—Tennessee and Maine—used the “common defence”
language of Massachusetts. See Tenn. Const., Art.
——————
18 JUSTICE STEVENS says that the drafters of the Virginia Declaration
of Rights rejected this proposal and adopted “instead” a provision
written by George Mason stressing the importance of the militia. See
post, at 24, and n. 24. There is no evidence that the drafters regarded
the Mason proposal as a substitute for the Jefferson proposal.
30 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER
Opinion of the Court
XI, §26 (1796), in 6 Thorpe 3414, 3424; Me. Const., Art. I,
§16 (1819), in 3 id., at 1646, 1648. That of the nine state
constitutional protections for the right to bear arms enacted
immediately after 1789 at least seven unequivocally
protected an individual citizen’s right to self-defense is
strong evidence that that is how the founding generation
conceived of the right. And with one possible exception
that we discuss in Part II–D–2, 19th-century courts and
commentators interpreted these state constitutional provisions
to protect an individual right to use arms for selfdefense.
See n. 9, supra; Simpson v. State, 5 Yer. 356, 360
(Tenn. 1833).
The historical narrative that petitioners must endorse
would thus treat the Federal Second Amendment as an
odd outlier, protecting a right unknown in state constitutions
or at English common law, based on little more than
an overreading of the prefatory clause.
C
JUSTICE STEVENS relies on the drafting history of the
Second Amendment—the various proposals in the state
conventions and the debates in Congress. It is dubious to
rely on such history to interpret a text that was widely
understood to codify a pre-existing right, rather than to
fashion a new one. But even assuming that this legislative
history is relevant, JUSTICE STEVENS flatly misreads
the historical record.
It is true, as JUSTICE STEVENS says, that there was
concern that the Federal Government would abolish the
institution of the state militia. See post, at 20. That
concern found expression, however, not in the various
Second Amendment precursors proposed in the State
conventions, but in separate structural provisions that
would have given the States concurrent and seemingly
nonpre-emptible authority to organize, discipline, and arm
the militia when the Federal Government failed to do so.

Mississippi and Alabama enacted strong individual, self-defense statutes while still being in the antebellum South. The Southern States had more explicit "individual" rights language in their statutes than the Northern States. Mississippi, Alabama and Connecticut had the most clear individualistic language. Two of those three States were slave states.
 
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Another underlying advantage about this case is the extensive exposure to the legal verbage used so much behind the scenes and having it transformed into simpler everyday language. Due to the nature of such lawyer-speak, many common folks, such as myself, who are not routinely exposed to such verbage, are making an attempt to delve deeper into its meaning.
With the help of the many many TFL members that are more familiar with this type of language and our own concern to understand it, there will be greater familiarity and a better understanding of how to interpret and act on the rulings and other legal matters of the day handed down by not only the SCOTUS, but other lesser courts of the land.

Thanks to the many members who contribute to creating this new understanding of the various laws. This is going on not only on this great forum but in many other ways all over the US and the world.
Better ammunition for continued victory in this fight.

This is truly a great time and experience for pro RKBA Americans.
 
DMMikey, before you castigate Scalia, perhaps you should read the dissents by O'Connor and Thomas in Gonzales v. Raich. Pay particular attention to Thomas' remarks about Scalia!

For all that they are, the Justices are human and when they disagree, they disagree vociferously.
 
And don't be so quick to throw thanks to the NRA, they did not lead this legal effort nor did they assist in the case. They attempted to kill it in the lower courts by disterously launching a similar case in an effort to have the court combine them. Both cases were tossed but the CATO institute managed to revive their case. The NRA has a strong sporting leaning and defends the 2nd amendment to the expediency of that cause

The NRA was not fully behind this from the beginning and for a perfectly good reason... FIVE TO FOUR

We were one traitorous justice away from having the 2A thrown out. Where do you think O'Connor would have landed on this issue... I do not think it would have been on the side of the COTUS.

We won, and contrary to the nay sayers here we won big. We won big on everything that was in question before the court pertaining to this case. Rolling box cars when you need it though does not mean betting your house on the roll was a good thing. The NRA did not like the odds and didn't want to risk a huge loss. Given the one justice margin of victory I think such a concern was valid. Now they are doing exactly what they should do, attacking bans and restrictions with this case as their grounds.

On the ruling... we are free to attack any capricious and arbitrary licensing now on the grounds that the action itself is a RIGHT. We are free to attack bans on mag capacity and type of weapon on the grounds that ownership is a RIGHT. We are free to to challenge any "new technology requirement" (serialization) on the grounds that such limitations prevent the free exercise of a RIGHT.

This case was not about those items I mentioned above, it was about establishing that the act of ownership and keeping ready in and of itself was a RIGHT and on that we won.
 
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