Heller Decision AFFIRMED, INDIVIDUAL right (Scalia)

Socrates:

In one of your posts, you mention "machine gun ban". In federal law, there isn't any such thing. Regulation yes, a ban, no. Some states ban private ownership of automatic weapons, others don't.

As for Lanier being elected, an elected Chief of Police would be rather unusual, I think, though it could be. More likely, she is simply another authoritarian, run away bureaucrat.
 
I am well aware of the level of political rancor that has existed in this country.
It has been much worse, with tanks on the streets of Washington.
And no, I'm not talking about sit-ins in the 60's or 70's.
I'm not aware of it reaching the level of name calling and childish behavior that I have seen from this Supreme Court.
To say that states were not worried about armed slaves, or to say its obvious non whites couldn't have the right to bear arms doesn't pass the laugh test, when some had the right to vote would appear to be a logical fallacy also.
I admit to having no knowledge of Michael Bellesiles whatsoever.
I think it shows amazing inflexibility of thought to fail to recognize that words mean different things in different contexts, people see contexts differently, some phrases may be weighed more heavily than others, and instead just accuse your opposition of moral vacuity.
As far as evidence of Scalia being remarkably inconsistent in his approach, there is more than just a case here or there. It was done both from examples, and based on statistical analysis.
I'm sure you would never accept the documentation, as it comes from a liberal think tank. Al Franken spent two days on it on his radio show once.
I assume that would have no credibility here, so I won't even bother to look it up to cite it.
That would be like citing something from Rush Limbaugh to me.
But it was convincing to me.
And yes, that last part is precisely why I am bitter about the level of discourse. There is so much garbage out there that trust no longer exists at any level.
 
After paying $40 for a box of Winchester 115gr HP Silvertips today, my biggest fear is that since it is getting to be almost impossible to legally deny a law abiding citizen a firearm that ammunition will now come under even stronger attack.

You are correct when you say that ammo will be one of the next targets. California's AB-2062 is an attempt to force purchases of ammunition to be done face-to-face only at FFLs who must record the transaction. It also seeks to limit the amount of ammo purchased per month. I suspect we'll see additional schemes to prohibit purchasing more than 50-100 boxes of projectiles per month or more than 100 primers, etc. We can expect attempts to levy special (high) taxes on reloading supplies and equipment too.

But such attempts are (or should be) ultimately doomed as unconstitutional. The right to keep and bear arms is similar to the right of a free press/speech in that both rights depend upon the ability to use certain products. Paper and ink in the case of the 1st Amendment and firearms & ammunition for the 2nd Amedment.

I think two SCOTUS cases that bear on this are MINNEAPOLIS STAR AND TRIBUNE COMPANY v. MINNESOTA COMMISSIONER OF REVENUE (1983) and Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 U.S. 105 (1943).

In the Minn. Star case, a tax on newspaper and ink was decided as unconstitutional since it imposes a tax on the exercise of free speech & a free press.

Even more similar to a 2-A claim, I think, is Murdock. In this case PA state required a flat-fee license for solicitors, including evangelical solicitors who handed out religious materials without selling a product or service. The court struck the requirement, saying that evangelical "missionary" visits to hand out religious gospel or information was an 'ages old method of religious activity' and thus exempt from taxation or licensing.

Ammunition is analogous to printer's ink used to print a newspaper, newsletter or pamphlet. A state imposing a 55% tax on ink would violate the right of many people to produce a free, politically-oriented flyer, newsletter or paper. The ability to tax a right is the ability to destroy the practice of the right.

Likewise, reloading is a long-established method of producing useable ammunition when one's finances are low, when materials are difficult to comeby (e.g. for a .25-40 round) and when one desire performance not otherwise available. This is analogous to the time-honored evangelical method of passing out religious materials by visiting the "heathen" or parts of a community.
 
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Socrates:

In one of your posts, you mention "machine gun ban". In federal law, there isn't any such thing. Regulation yes, a ban, no. Some states ban private ownership of automatic weapons, others don't.

The 'law' limits the production and license for sale of new guns, thereby artifically driving the price of legal, existing guns through the roof. How a mac 10 can be sold for 3k is beyond me. This is clearly a law that was put in place to limit the publics' access, and number of automatic firearms. With the second amendment as an individual right, how can such a law pass examination?

Scalia as much as says so, when he mentions the ban on 'M16's', while not normal, main stream weapons, would be essential to the function of a modern militia.
 
I am well aware of the level of political rancor that has existed in this country.
It has been much worse, with tanks on the streets of Washington.
And no, I'm not talking about sit-ins in the 60's or 70's.
I'm not aware of it reaching the level of name calling and childish behavior that I have seen from this Supreme Court.

Well, then with all respect, you aren't aware of the level of political bitterness that this nation has seen. Again if you think this is bad you need to look at what was the rule of the day for politicla infighting during the time of the framers. Scalia's opinions barely raise an eyebrow compared to what went on then.


I think it shows amazing inflexibility of thought to fail to recognize that words mean different things in different contexts, people see contexts differently, some phrases may be weighed more heavily than others, and instead just accuse your opposition of moral vacuity.

Thats simply baloney. There is no 'flexibility of thought' where the bill of rights, and specifically the 2nd amendment was concerned. There just isn't. The words are clearly defined and are not ambiguous. The positions of the men who wrote them are beyond doubt. The historical factors and reasoning behind the amendment are clear.

There is no 'context' there is no "weighing". The only time that someone would need to resort to this is because they are trying to reach a decision not supported by any facts.


As far as evidence of Scalia being remarkably inconsistent in his approach, there is more than just a case here or there. It was done both from examples, and based on statistical analysis. I'm sure you would never accept the documentation, as it comes from a liberal think tank. Al Franken spent two days on it on his radio show once.
I assume that would have no credibility here, so I won't even bother to look it up to cite it.

First, how is Al franken qualified to critique a supreme court justice. Second, I fully admit that I am wary of the opinions of an organization that would like to see the constitution dismantled.

That said, please post your article. Without it you have nothing to support your assertion.
 
To say that states were not worried about armed slaves, or to say its obvious non whites couldn't have the right to bear arms doesn't pass the laugh test, when some had the right to vote would appear to be a logical fallacy also.

Which states allowed their slaves to vote? To say that a state was worried about an armed slave rebellion is not the same as saying the state worried if the RKBA extended to slaves. There is not doubt what the founders thought of RKBA, they did write about it.

As for political rancor, read up on the Sedition Act and the story of the Aurora. One quick question, if you dislike political rancor, why are you listening to a man writing books entitled, "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right," and "Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot?" Sounds pretty personally denigrating to me.
 
Again, I think Stage 2's response covers that concern as well. There are no special taxes that target ink or printing paper; freedom of the press wouldn't mean much if it meant only well-monied people could exercise that right.
There actually WAS a special tax that targeted paper and ink products, and it was ruled to be a violation of the First Amendment by the US Supreme Court in 1983.

Minneapolis Star v. Minnesota Commissioner of Revenue
 
There actually WAS a special tax that targeted paper and ink products, and it was ruled to be a violation of the First Amendment by the US Supreme Court in 1983.
Correct. So like I said, there ARE (as in currently) no special taxes that target ink or printing paper, and I think the same logic could (and should) be applied to things such as ammunition and magazines that are unique to firearms.

I think an additional application of the prohibition against prior restraint (at the heart of Minneapolis Star) that can be modifed for a 2nd Amendment context would be another Minnesota case, Near v. Minnesota, 283 U.S. 697 (1931). There, Minnesota had a statute that allowed the state to enjoin any publication that it deemed "malicious, scandalous, and defamatory" as a public nuisance. The Supreme Court found the statute invalid as a prior restraint, which is fundamentally different from after-the-fact punishment.

Seems to me that part of the case in Heller consists of prior restraint, in which law-abiding gun owners rights were being restrained rather than D.C. applying after-the-fact punishment against those who commit crimes.
 
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The Miller case said:

'In all the colonies, as in England, the militia system was based on the principle of the assize of arms. This implied the general obligation of all adult male inhabitants to possess arms, and, with certain exceptions, to [307 U.S. 174, 180] cooperate in the work of defence.' 'The possession of arms also implied the possession of ammunition, and the authorities paid quite as much attention to the latter as to the former.'
 
Whyte & mvpel

Minneapolis Star v. Minnesota Commissioner of Revenue is certainly analogous enough to take any specialized ammo tax up to SCOTUS. I would suggest that firearms & ammunition would be correctly exempt from a state sales-tax, even if it was fairly administered and consistent.

Prior restraint is an issue well settled with SCOTUS. Exactly how certain firearm regulations will fit to "prior restraint" remains to be seen. However, we can probably forsee waiting periods and purchasing permits being voided as well as one-gun-a-month laws.

I think Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 U.S. 105 (1943) is closer to our arguments against things like FOID cards and other "fees" associated with purchasing and owing a firearm.

Murdock successfully challenged the State's requirement that door-to-door solicitors be licensed, including those who are performing evangelical or missionary works, such as handing out literature about the gospel.
 
To say that states were not worried about armed slaves, or to say its obvious non whites couldn't have the right to bear arms doesn't pass the laugh test, when some had the right to vote would appear to be a logical fallacy also.

In the post Civil War era, freed black slaves were given the right to vote, though many could not read or write. In early voting after the war, many southern blacks were beaten by groups of whites to keep them from voting. When state governors were forced to do something, the tactics changed. Polls were set up and large signs reading "Whites only" added. When a free black inquired as to where he was supposed to go for voting, locals were unhelpful ("I ain't black so I don' t know."). Other places established a "Poll tax" to be paid in order to vote. This tax could have been as high as $1 (often a week's wages for a black). Such taxes have been ruled unconstitutional.

In many towns in the south, a white store owner would refuse to sell firearms to blacks wanting to buy. In some cases, if a black man had the $12-$18 to afford a Colt revolver, someone would fetch the town marshal. The law would harrass the former slave about where he "stole" that much money or demanding proof that he'd earned it (ever try to prove how you earned cash?).

1870 Tennessee First "Saturday Night Special" economic handgun ban passed.
In the first legislative session in which they gained control, white supremacists passed "An Act to Preserve the Peace and Prevent Homicide," which banned the sale of all handguns except the expensive "Army and Navy model handgun" which whites already owned or could afford to buy, and blacks could not.
("Gun Control: White Man's Law," William R. Tonso, Reason, December 1985) Upheld in Andrews v. State, 50 Tenn. (3 Heisk.) 165, 172 (1871) (GMU CR LJ, p. 74)

1882 Arkansas
Arkansas followed Tennessee's lead by enacting a virtually identical "Saturday Night Special" law banning the sale of any pistols other than expensive "army or navy" model revolvers, which most whites had or could afford, thereby disarming blacks. Statute was upheld in Dabbs v. State, 39 Ark. 353 (1882) (GMU CR LJ, p. 74)

1893 Alabama First all-gun economic ban passed.
Alabama placed "`extremely heavy business and/or transactional taxes'" on the sale of handguns in an attempt "to put handguns out of the reach of blacks and poor whites." ("Gun Control: White Man's Law," William R. Tonso, Reason,December 1985)
This law was copied in 1907 in Texas. ("Gun Control: White Man's Law," William R. Tonso, Reason, December 1985)

1941 Florida Judge admits gun law passed to disarm black laborers.
In concurring opinion narrowly construing a Florida gun control law passed in 1893, Justice Buford stated the 1893 law "was passed when there was a great influx of Negro laborers in this State....The same condition existed when the Act was amended in 1901 and the Act was passed for the purpose of disarming the Negro laborers....The statute was never intended to be applied to the white population and in practice has never been so applied...". Watson v. Stone,148 Fla. 516, 524, 4 So.2d 700, 703 (1941) (GMU CR LJ, p. 69)

I think it shows amazing inflexibility of thought to fail to recognize that words mean different things in different contexts, people see contexts differently, some phrases may be weighed more heavily than others, and instead just accuse your opposition of moral vacuity.

Some words do mean different things in different contexts. "Badger" is one. It can refer to an animal, someone from Wisconsin or a harassing activity against another.

In the context of Constitutional law, the courts have held that words should be given their normal meanings as in common use at the time a document was written. Words are analyzed in the context they were used, as of the time they were written.

Take "militia". Go ask any 50 people on the street what a "militia" is. Less informed dimwits will refer to it as "some bunch of radical white supremists in Montana" while some others might refer to the National Guard. Yet at the time the 2nd Amendment was drafted, neither of these groups existed. But the founders defined Militia anyway, in the Militia Act of 1792.

On the issue of Constitutional construction and how things ought to be read, I'll defer to one of the most expert of Constitutional scholars;

"On every question of construction carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." --Thomas Jefferson to William Johnson, 1823. ME 15:449

"Strained constructions... loosen all the bands of the Constitution." --Thomas Jefferson to George Ticknor, 1817. FE 10:81
 
BillCA, I'm with you. Now that Heller has affirmatively settled that the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right, we have a new lens through which to view and analyze things. 1st Amendment law is a particularly good area to mine for analogies.
 
I haven't had the time to read this entire thread,and I'm sure somebody has mentioned it but it scares the hell out of me that we have 4 looney left judges on the Supreme court.Ginsburg needs to go away sooner than later! She is a total nutjob!
 
I hate to say this, but it took 9/11 to wake up the American people. I don't suppose the justices have been watching Pelican Brief lately? ;)

Not to mention one of those planes could have been aimed at, and, got to Congress in session, or, likewise, the Supreme Court.

When ever I think of that situation, I can't help but think how nearly 100 americans that sacrificed their lifes on the plane that didn't hit the pentagon would still have been alive if 5 of them had been able to use their second amendment rights to individually bear a firearm...:(

We really need a crying icon...

IIRC, the scene from Airplane, where everyone has a gun puts a QUICK end to the terrorist threat...
 
Having just returned yesterday I missed the opportunity to chime in on the outset of the decisions announcement.

My 2 cents.

First. OUTSTANDING decision. An anchor hold to future challenges and very firm one at that. ESTABLISHED is the INDIVIDUAL right, the SELF DEFENSE right (bye bye sporting use argument), the right to BEAR those arms defined as CARRYING said arms, and the elimination of the tie to military/militia membership. VERY solid footholds for further challenges.

Which brings me to my next great appreciation about this decision, the majority opinion. MASTERFULLY written to not only clarify and establish the points made above but more brilliantly it is almost an instruction manual on what to argue and how to argue it in future challenges to anti 2A action. It as if he knew he couldn't lump it all in to this case but genuinely wants MORE 2A cases argued and is giving expert consultation on how to do that successfully before the SCOTUS. Even suggesting that the course taken in First Amendment cases was applicable.

Those arguing that appointments don't matter aren't seeing clearly. As I have stated before I have been working to establish business in Latin America (thanks again JustMe wherever you are) and many don't realize that Mexico ALSO has the right to bear arms in their Constitution. It translates almost verbatim to ours. So why are guns flat unattainable legally in Mexico? Because little by little the 'military use' and 'sporting use' and 'public safety' arguments eroded it down to what they have today and their equivalent to the Supreme Court is ALREADY packed with 'liberals' and so the people are lost due to no recourse. They have relented at this point and are now subjects of their government. We were ONE liberal appointment from being destined to that fate in our own future. Their other fatal mistakes were accepting too much free stuff from a benevolently intended government. And believing politicians with soaring rhetoric (still how office is won today) will actually be benevolent. They are now completely dependent upon that for their sustenance and only a very few are prosperous.

Making the US MORE like the rest of the world is counter to our best interests and COUNTER to what America MEANS.
 
Great post Bruxley, but I've been thinking what if all the heat that Kennedy is getting from all the antigunners will make him flip on the next 2A cases that will come before the SCOTUS?
 
Socrates said:
I hate to say this, but it took 9/11 to wake up the American people. I don't suppose the justices have been watching Pelican Brief lately?

Not to mention one of those planes could have been aimed at, and, got to Congress in session, or, likewise, the Supreme Court.

When ever I think of that situation, I can't help but think how nearly 100 americans that sacrificed their lifes on the plane that didn't hit the pentagon would still have been alive if 5 of them had been able to use their second amendment rights to individually bear a firearm...

We really need a crying icon...REARMING

IIRC, the scene from Airplane, where everyone has a gun puts a QUICK end to the terrorist threat...

Each and every time I see, read or hear about another of TSA's transgressions, especially the way that they have stood in the way of the REARMING of airline pilots and co-pilots, combined with the antics of government and the airlines themselves, I'm given to speculate on the following. On that day in Sept. 2001, if the pilots and co-pilots of the four airliners had been armed, AS THEY USED TO BE, that the results obtained at day's end might have been markedly different.

I have mentioned this in numerous communications with various congress critters over the years, and have yet to have a sentient response or answer, regarding why it is that The Congress allows a bunch of two bit bureaucrats to get away with the crap they are allowed to pull, the bunch of bureaucrats being none other than the TSA.
 
.......... but I've been thinking what if all the heat that Kennedy is getting from all the antigunners will make him flip on the next 2A cases that will come before the SCOTUS?
Exactly why those Judicial appointments are so important especially to the SCOTUS.

Obama stated directly what his qualifiers would be......
"We need somebody who's got the heart, the empathy, to recognize what it's like to be a young teenage mom. The empathy to understand what it's like to be poor, or African-American, or gay, or disabled, or old. And that's the criteria by which I'm going to be selecting my judges."
He would appoint Justices that would practice social Liberalism.

McCain..................
"My nominees will understand that there are clear limits to the scope of judicial power, and clear limits to the scope of federal power."

The SCOTUS with a 5th Justice with commitment of holding the Constitution above their own politics would make Kennedy's swing vote moot and a 5th Justice with a commitment to practicing social liberalism would soon have us on a path to becoming 'like the rest of the world.'
 
I see some arguments about the delivery of a firearm to a resident of DC having to be done by an FFL in their jurisdiction. Any bets that there are at least a half-dozen DC cops who are FFLs? If that is so, couldn't the resident simply have the firearm shipped to the DCPD and take delivery from them?
 
Any bets that there are at least a half-dozen DC cops who are FFLs? If that is so, couldn't the resident simply have the firearm shipped to the DCPD and take delivery from them?
The DC Police and the city's administration have clearly and unambiguously expressed their intent to defy and thwart the US Supreme Court's decision and continue to deny the fundamental human right of self-defense of the District's residents.

I'm sure that even if there was a police officer who was an FFL, he would be summarily fired if he attempted to handle a handgun transfer for a DC resident in full compliance with federal law.
 
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