HEAD SHOTS vs CENTER MASS

Assuming the perp is going to cause harm to me or another person I'm willing to do the following knowing situations are never the same as you may practice.

Go for the first piece of meat on the perp that I have a clear shot on.

why? When people get shot, their brain changes from anger to "That HURT!" When that happens, they're more defensive than offensive.

If the perp wishes to continue, repeat.

You can't always go for the head or chest. North Hollywood bank robbery teaches us that. A LEO took one of them down with an AR by being creative about get a shot at all. He dropped down knowing his feet and ankles would be exposed and reminded the guy that people can shoot under things too.

You go for the shot you can get. That's the way it is. If it's leg it's leg, arm it's arm, chest it's chest, head it's head. Whatever shot you can get.
 
active shooters, sworn LEOs/armed security/PSCs...

The posts about LEOs or armed security officers being in critical incidents that may require a headshot more than a licensed citizen(s) is not really valid.
Skill training or work history may be important but a use of force event that would need a headshot would be rare and only in very limited conditions for most armed citizens(not law enforcement, PMCs, spec ops, etc).

Are there critical incidents when you may need to shoot at a felon/terrorist's head? Yes. Will most home owners, CWP/license holders, etc encounter those events? No.
 
The chances of needing to take a head shot are ridiculously slim (not that you shouldn't practice for that scenario). An assailant can move their head up/down and side to side much more quickly and erratically than he can move his torso, and it is obviously a much smaller target. If you are shooting at all, your life is probably on the line, and unless you have an incredible amount of very high level training (SWAT, HRT, SEAL) I can't comprehend why you would want to gamble your life on a head shot.
 
If you are shooting at all, your life is probably on the line, and unless you have an incredible amount of very high level training (SWAT, HRT, SEAL) I can't comprehend why you would want to gamble your life on a head shot.
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1. Body shots have failed
2. The head is the only viable or visible target
3. The perp has a hostage an immediate incapacitation is required
 
What are your opinions and/or experiences with this?
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From my experience from shooting IDPA and mind you no is going to be shooting back.
Our COM is a 8" circle as far as points are concerned. Our head shot is a 6" circle. Sounds easy, piece of cake, no problem! Wrong!
Many competitors including myself have missed head shots and missed the 8" circle during any given stage.
My opinion from shooting IDPA is shoot for the center of mass. Your biggest target and your best chance for a hit which a self defense shooting is going to require. Like it has been stated many time before if you do your job the round will do its job.
Shooting in any of the competitions is going to be the closest thing you can get without being in a gun battle for your life.
 
If the situation allows it, a headshot would be nice. I know I can hit the head, but like I said, that's entirely a situational thing.

Most of the time I've aimed at BG's, be it with my M4 or M9, I fire body, body, head. If it's a longer range, over 50m, I go for all torso. Start at the 7 o'clock and work up to 2 o'clock.

Once we had a BG with a vest surprise for chow. I couldn't tell if he had body armor on or if it was all explosives. I was the first one to pull my M9 and start firing. Since I had no idea if he had BA on, I did what I do for after 50m. I went from 7 to 2 o'clock. With him being so close, less than 80 feet when he turned the corner and started running towards us, I felt my adrenaline kick in. When that happens, I get the shakes for about 30 seconds. I couldn't afford the head shot risk with him running and me shaking, so I did the 7 - 2 fan on him with the 9 shots I fired.

Turns out, he had extra clothing on and five tubular PVC looking devices strapped to his stomach with all these 5/32" bearings in wrapped plastic bags in the pockets of the three shirts he was wearing. I wasn't sure which hits were mine, except for the first two which were his right kidney...I saw them go in and come out behind him, but the guy had quite a few holes in him by the time he hit the ground. One of my shots hit one of those baggies of bearings and I recall everything being slow motion and me being surprised as hell about these friggin bearings pouring out of this hole I just put in him. I was thinking I should see red, not metal bearings!

At least two others also pulled their M9's and fired. I had the MSG to my right tell me I got the kill shot before he could, but I couldn't tell with him and the other SFC that put rounds on him. About two minutes later, we got the living crap mortared out of us. Anyone in 4th ID that was at Balad when it was just a little resupply outpost in 2004 probably heard of the incident. I was the MedEvac PSG who picked up the name "Wobble" because after it was over, my adrenaline wouldn't stop, it was 115° in the shade and I had not eaten breakfast yet. So I "wobbled" my butt right over to a rock and sat down like I was thrown into that seated position. :o
 
IMO, ceter mass targets are the better way to go. I think that the center mass shot is best due to adrenaline & heart rate being elevated & fine motor skills somewhat being lost during that elevation. Center mass is what I teach my wife in defensive shooting. However, my Marines are taught multiple engagements on multiple tgts, center mass tgt area, & head shots.

Faliure drills...as long as you practice/train to this can be the best of both worlds... hitting the center mass target & following up with the headshot (in the case that the BG is wearing body armor or hopped up on drugs/alcohol.
 
1. Body shots have failed
2. The head is the only viable or visible target
3. The perp has a hostage an immediate incapacitation is required
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Head shots have failed too, there are no guarantees.

If the head is the only target visible then you takes your best shot, nobody arguing that.

If it is a hostage situation and you are taking the shot you better have icewater in your veins and complete control over your heart rate. It's hard taking a shot on a small obscured moving target when your heart is pumping like their won't be a tomorrow.
 
If you have practiced at 25 feet overe and over and can hit your targer over and over, then whats the problem. If you have practiced shooting of 6 or more shots weither it was head shoots or mass. Why change. If it's than critical.

Shoot for the mass​

Then walk up and finish your job...shoot for the head.
 
Head shots have failed too, there are no guarantees.
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Nobody said there were any guarantees. The shot needs to do sufficient CNS damage to produce incapacitation.

If the head is the only target visible then you takes your best shot, nobody arguing that.
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Actually, yes somebody is - BfloBill

If it is a hostage situation and you are taking the shot you better have icewater in your veins and complete control over your heart rate. It's hard taking a shot on a small obscured moving target when your heart is pumping like their won't be a tomorrow.
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Strangely, hostage takers often stand still and have been known to do it for considerable amounts of time or are moving in a manner that is not difficult to follow. Their heads are often not obscured.

Graphics videos....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cCvb3c8Wcs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muKCFwz-2EI
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9146695629367704512#
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiS2eNhPki8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8sygvNeL4Q

Here is a video discussed here previously. The hostage taker was not shot in the head and in fact the officer's first round missed, but notice how long the hostage taker remains stationary and how high his head is above the victim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-AgnIHjVAE

Then walk up and finish your job...shoot for the head.
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I am sure you only mean to imply that you should walk up and shoot the downed person in the head because the downed person still is actively being a threat, right?
 
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If the situation allows it, a headshot would be nice. I know I can hit the head, but like I said, that's entirely a situational thing
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Thank you for your service which allows us to bang away at our keyboards .Understood and from what you stated from your military experience apples and oranges from a civilain standpoint.

If you have practiced at 25 feet overe and over and can hit your targer over and over, then whats the problem. If you have practiced shooting of 6 or more shots weither it was head shoots or mass. Why change. If it's than critical.
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Simple, STRESS,STRESS,STRESS:eek:
 
Double Naught Spy-
I said "the chances of needing to take a head shot are ridiculously slim"
I never said not to take the head shot if that's all that you have.
If that is your only option then the decision was made for you, and of course you take the shot. I was referring to CHOOSING to take the head shot over center mass.
 
Here's what I know.

Have a friend stand a few feet away, point your finger at the center of their chest and have them dodge and weave and try to keep your finger centered on their chest.

Now do the same thing, only point at their forehead and try to keep your finger centered there.

Consider the results of this experiment and then add in the fact that you were dealing with neither recoil or stress induced body responses as you did the experiment.

Also at the "Shoot n' Greet" events we sometimes run the "Zombie Challenge" where the participants have a limited time to splatter the paintball "brains" of the zombie targets before they are considered to have been "bitten". We have a lot of fun doing it but under stress the overwhelming outcome is that we'd be adding a lot to the zombie population :rolleyes:

In a dynamic situation headshots are REALLY DIFFICULT and I'd rather get a few "less effective" COM hits in than a bunch of completely ineffective misses from attempting head shots.
 
Have a friend stand a few feet away, point your finger at the center of their chest and have them dodge and weave and try to keep your finger centered on their chest.

Now do the same thing, only point at their forehead and try to keep your finger centered there.
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In response to a question by one of my rookie cop students I bought the kids squirt gun to the next class. Then I had him try and hit one of his buddies with it anywhere on the body while they were jigging around. He got a body hit maybe a third of the time from 10'. Then I asked him to make a head shot and I was the target. I didn't move my legs, just moved my head from side to side and backwards and forward by bending my torso. He finally got me when I was bending forward but it took him a bunch of water in that little gun. Not a pressure situation unless you count everybody laughing at him and teasing his marksmanship.

I practice head shots, hand shots, elbow shots...on paper, but I have yet to see a silhouette target that moved around or jumped up and down, (army rifle range excluded), or throw things at me. It just stood there and let me shoot it. Huge difference.

Even when I was a puppy getting my head and body punched for fun in the boxing ring, getting a head shot on a good boxer was not easy. Wish I had learned that head shake trick earlier, it would have saved me a lot of aspirin. :D
 
The 2 in the chest 1 in the head thing was created when the 9mm became in fashion. The 9mm was not properly stopping the fight.

If you have a .45, then shooting the chest should be sufficient.
 
My training taught me three rounds center mass and move on to the next target. Served me well in Iraq. Had I tried for a head shot in that engagement, I'd have either been blasted by an arsehole with an RPG (who died from 3 rnds, COM) or by his buddy with the AK (who shared the same fate).

That was with an M4 at a range of about 80 feet.

My CCW is a S&W Sigma .40, and in most scenarios I may encounter, center mass will be effective enough.

However, at home its the 12 gauge, and again, aiming center mass.
 
USAF VET...agreed...to a point. There are times that the headshot is the only shot that can be taken. Case in point, in the fall offensive of Fallujah, Iraq back in 2004, there were many headshots taken on insurgents just for the simple fact that alot of the times the head was the only target they would present.

Again though, I agree that the center mass shot is the main shot that should be taken. It gives you a much larger target area, which is helpful when firing at a moving target & when your fine motor skills start to become effected by adrenaline, increased heart rate, low visibility, explosions near by, etc...
 
Hoskins, I agree that sometimes a headshot is the only target that presents itself. Targets under cover are tricky, and you have to hit whatever you can. Still, as much as it pains me, if some jerk off was hiding behind my recliner, I'm putting as many rounds through my favorite chair into center mass rather than try to pick off a headshot when he peeks around to take a shot. I can always get a new chair :D
 
I honestly don't think a nice 9mm HP(Speer Gold Dot 115gr.) and a nice 45ACP HP (Speer Gold Dot 230gr.) will be that big of a difference. I think the 45ACP is a better stopper and it creates a larger wound channel. It is not a better stopper by a high margin however. A 9mm and 45 IMHO, will produce similar effects to the human body. I rather have a 45ACP any day because I shoot it best. However, the 9mm is a proven round and gets a bad rep since the 1986 Miami FBI shootout. Of course its the 9mm's fault for not stopping the guy instantly. The 9mm is more than adequate for SD.
 
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