HEAD SHOTS vs CENTER MASS
- Thread starter echo6actual
- Start date
We play clay shooting games with pistols at my local club. 10 yards -- .22s and optics shoot at 2" mini-clays, centerfire shoots at full-size clays. The clays are lined up as such;
OOOO o OOOO
You have five bullets, and have to shoot your four clays and hit the shared middle clay before your opponent gets there. Miss even one shot though, and he can take all the time in the world to get to the middle. Accuracy and speed in equal proportion.
It's fun to watch what happens to people. Old hands at shooting can miss 5 times in a row. And the target is what, 8 ring or better at 10 yards? An easy shot to anyone who's had some practice with a handgun. But you get that adrenaline going, and even against a stationary target you can miss consistently.
Oh, put enough competitions behind someone and they'll start scoring 40+/50. The top couple competitors fluctuate between 45 and 50 on any given week. The targets aren't *that hard* once you get used to them. So can special forces guys take headshots if they want to? Sure. Go through 100-200 rounds a day, train by working up your adrenaline first and getting used to its effects, force on force, and I imagine a person can get good enough to hit a head-sized moving target consistently, especially when using an SMG with a stock. Could I do it? Not on purpose. Not consistently. And I'm one of those 40+ shooters.
If you stand in place and score bullseyes at 25 yards, you're not training for a firefight. You're learning a useful skill and gaining trigger time, but you will still get the snot kicked out of you by adrenaline. Unless you have a gravel pit and very understanding neighbors living a mile away, or are part of a secret squirrel agency, odds are you won't be able to do a lot of the right practice. So aim for the center mass and you may well end up with head shots anyway.
OOOO o OOOO
You have five bullets, and have to shoot your four clays and hit the shared middle clay before your opponent gets there. Miss even one shot though, and he can take all the time in the world to get to the middle. Accuracy and speed in equal proportion.
It's fun to watch what happens to people. Old hands at shooting can miss 5 times in a row. And the target is what, 8 ring or better at 10 yards? An easy shot to anyone who's had some practice with a handgun. But you get that adrenaline going, and even against a stationary target you can miss consistently.
Oh, put enough competitions behind someone and they'll start scoring 40+/50. The top couple competitors fluctuate between 45 and 50 on any given week. The targets aren't *that hard* once you get used to them. So can special forces guys take headshots if they want to? Sure. Go through 100-200 rounds a day, train by working up your adrenaline first and getting used to its effects, force on force, and I imagine a person can get good enough to hit a head-sized moving target consistently, especially when using an SMG with a stock. Could I do it? Not on purpose. Not consistently. And I'm one of those 40+ shooters.
If you stand in place and score bullseyes at 25 yards, you're not training for a firefight. You're learning a useful skill and gaining trigger time, but you will still get the snot kicked out of you by adrenaline. Unless you have a gravel pit and very understanding neighbors living a mile away, or are part of a secret squirrel agency, odds are you won't be able to do a lot of the right practice. So aim for the center mass and you may well end up with head shots anyway.
I think there is a detail most people do not consider....
This is like what part of the finger does one use to pull the trigger - pad or first joint?
Both are fine, both have their uses - it depends on the application.
From the OP - about Special Forces going for head shots....
It depends as if it's an aimed calculated first shot or a tactical multi engagement.
For the rest of us - we're not going to take a well aimed calculated head shot for self defense.
In an active shooting (the target and you - one or both of you are moving). If you think you can shoot a head shot when one or both are moving - you really haven't tried IDPA or USPSA. They use moving targets and you shoot on the move.
Other factors come into play - distance, who's moving and dodging, barriers and most importantly who's shooting. It's one thing to shoot at a paper target but a totally different story when that "target" is also shooting back and moving. Rifle or pistol and of course your skill level with the firearm.
Bring it down to reality.... centermass - as it doesn't move (dodge like the head) and it's larger - you have a higher percentage of a hit and maybe to a vital organ (heart, lung, aorta, kidney and liver).
It's not like a video game. Just trying to keep it real and also put it into perspective.
This is like what part of the finger does one use to pull the trigger - pad or first joint?
Both are fine, both have their uses - it depends on the application.
From the OP - about Special Forces going for head shots....
It depends as if it's an aimed calculated first shot or a tactical multi engagement.
For the rest of us - we're not going to take a well aimed calculated head shot for self defense.
In an active shooting (the target and you - one or both of you are moving). If you think you can shoot a head shot when one or both are moving - you really haven't tried IDPA or USPSA. They use moving targets and you shoot on the move.
Other factors come into play - distance, who's moving and dodging, barriers and most importantly who's shooting. It's one thing to shoot at a paper target but a totally different story when that "target" is also shooting back and moving. Rifle or pistol and of course your skill level with the firearm.
Bring it down to reality.... centermass - as it doesn't move (dodge like the head) and it's larger - you have a higher percentage of a hit and maybe to a vital organ (heart, lung, aorta, kidney and liver).
It's not like a video game. Just trying to keep it real and also put it into perspective.
TylerD45ACP
New member
COM is the most practical. Any other shots in a deadly situation could get you killed. Like the previous poster said you want to hit the biggest target. Especially, if there moving and returning fire. It's going to be difficult to hit that.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Nisei said:
Hmmm, well since diffuse means to "spread out" or "not concentrate", I'm curious how you would diffuse an attacker without killing him?
Assuming you meant "defuse", I'm still interested in how to reliably stop an immediate threat of death or serious injury by shooting it in the legs.It seems to me that if you are so concerned about killing the attacker that you intentionally target the legs, then maybe a firearm isn't the best tool? After all, a hit to the femoral artery will still kill something dead when it eventually bleeds out. It might well kill you too while waiting for that to happen though.
I think that if you're facing an opponent, the head shot would be very difficult, as the BG will be moving to avoid your aim. And he can move his head faster/further than his torso.
Probably almost all of those heads were protected by steel pots.
Those helmets wouldn't stop a rifle round, but might deflect a good percentage from an angle. They were good protection against fragmentation weapons, which produced many more casualties than small arms.
Probably almost all of those heads were protected by steel pots.
Those helmets wouldn't stop a rifle round, but might deflect a good percentage from an angle. They were good protection against fragmentation weapons, which produced many more casualties than small arms.
Double Naught Spy
New member
COM is only the most practical shot if by COM you are referring to the COM of whatever portion of the BG that is available to shoot. If you mean COM of the body, then COM certainly may not be the most practical shot.
As for any other shots getting you killed, No. Other shots will not get you killed unless you have the gun turned on your self.
Bartholomew Roberts, I have one word for you: "Doh!" Not sure how I missed that! 
I don't know what my line of thinking was when I say aim for the legs. Personally, I wouldn't. If I have time to aim for the head, I have time to prepare myself for an attack and use my koppo stick, or run away. I'm trained with my tools and I am confident in my ability to defend myself, so I see little value of a head-shot in a defense situation.
Again, YMMV.
I don't know what my line of thinking was when I say aim for the legs. Personally, I wouldn't. If I have time to aim for the head, I have time to prepare myself for an attack and use my koppo stick, or run away. I'm trained with my tools and I am confident in my ability to defend myself, so I see little value of a head-shot in a defense situation.
Again, YMMV.
TylerD45ACP
New member
Double Naught- Obviously the COM changes if your shooting at someone behing cover and and are only partially visible. COM of the body if you can. COM of whatevers exposed if hes got cover. I also said it could get you killed, not would. The COM concept means shoot at the largest part of the body you can hit. The chest area if exposed, if not whatever shot you got. You could get killed if you went for stupid leg shots(when COM is available) or something, missed, then get shot, so yea. Don't need to turn the gun on your self, as you say.
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warrior poet
New member
Upper Thoraic Cavity: It is slightly above center mass and targets the heart and largest arteries and veins. Rapid shots here (controlled pair for longer range, hammer for close in) followed by a "failure to stop" shot (T-box for close in, pelvic shot for further away) if necessary.
Just my two slugs o' copper.
Just my two slugs o' copper.
There could be times when headshots would be more appropriate. I can think of several that I don't really want to mention here - mostly very close range.
Whether you pull your gun, whether you decide to shoot, and what you aim for are all independent decisions that need to be made in split seconds - and each one will depend on your brains ability to digest the many moving variables that make up the scenario.
Whether you pull your gun, whether you decide to shoot, and what you aim for are all independent decisions that need to be made in split seconds - and each one will depend on your brains ability to digest the many moving variables that make up the scenario.
TylerD45ACP
New member
True. Im still going to am for COM all the time. However, like you said some situations the headshots more appropriate. Like you said theres a bunch of different variables and your brain has to pick out the important ones. In .25 seconds before you react.
Hello, I’m John (23 year Navy vet). 99% of it with a 9mm on my hip. I went through the same two-week close quarter battle course the frogmen teach (simunition stings like hell)
I wanted to chime in on another aspect of the double-tap center of mass. If you’re ever have to defend your decision to deploy deadly force in court (or a JAG inquiry) , your mantra should be:
“I felt afraid for my life and fired at the largest part of the target that was presenting itself. I have no idea how many rounds I fired”
We were taught to memorize this (or one very similar at the very beginning of the classroom phase of the training…
I wanted to chime in on another aspect of the double-tap center of mass. If you’re ever have to defend your decision to deploy deadly force in court (or a JAG inquiry) , your mantra should be:
“I felt afraid for my life and fired at the largest part of the target that was presenting itself. I have no idea how many rounds I fired”
We were taught to memorize this (or one very similar at the very beginning of the classroom phase of the training…
Glenn Bartley
New member
I aim at the center of mass of my target with every shot I take. I don't see any reason to do differently because it is a body shot, a chest shot, an abdomen shot, a groin shot, a head shot, etc - each time I shoot at the center of mass of the target area. I have to wonder - why would you ever shoot at anything but the center of mass of your intended target.
As to what you seem more likely to be asking seems to be a head versus chest shot. You shoot at the area of your opponent/assailant that is available. If everything is available and the opponent is very close in, I would suggest not bringing the gun up to head or chest levels, nor extending it for a shot, but to shoot from the hip and to hit your opponent in the body anywhere from the groin to the chest.
A bit further off and I would recommend first shooting the body. The ,mid-chest and upper belly area being the area easiest to hit while at the same time offering excellent opportunity for a shot there to incapacitate your opponent AND to allow for the widest margin of error laterally and vertically (with an opponent facing you or with his back to you) than if you shot at just the neck or head. So if you are shooting a bit off because the pucker factor has grabbed hold of you, or if your target moves just as you fire, the chances of still getting a hit are increased if aiming at the chest as opposed to the head with normally proportioned people as your target.
If this does not stop your opponent and a head shot is still an option, fire at the head next if you must, such as if it appears the target is wearing body armor or you can try something else. Another good option to consider, the something else you can try, is firing at the groin (the lower abdomen, you are not aiming at the sexual body parts) instead of the head. Firing at the groin also offers more of a chance of hitting your opponent than does a head shot. Like a chest shot, a groin shot has a lot of area above it and below it (both thighs), and to the sides laterally (the hips). Shots in this area can effectively stop an assailant.
Of course, where you shoot not only depends on what is available on your target but on things like: distance to the target, type of weapon you are firing, if you are firing from an aimed in position, if you are point shooting, if you are hip or push off shooting, if you are shooting from the draw, if you are vertically tracking and so on. Bear in mind, if you are shooting along the lines of paper punching, then when you draw or otherwise bring your weapon up to take aim or point shoot - you have plenty of time to bring it up level to be high enough to fire at your opponent’s head. This is just not going to be the case in a lot of real shooting situations in which you may find yourself. You may have to start firing at what you consider a less than ‘best’ area on your opponent to try to stop him from continuing to be a threat. If he continues to be a threat you may need to continue to fire and hope to be able to get a shot in a better area. If this does not work you may need to keep shooting until you do find an area to hit that brings about the desired result. This is one of the reasons I practice vertical tracking when possible, and vertical tracking combined with getting distance, seeking cover, using cover and so on. With vertical tracking, if close enough to fire from the hip, you can fire your first shot as soon as the gun clears the leather and is pointed at the target often resulting in a thigh or groin shot, the second shot will be higher in the abdomen, the third shot in the chest, the fourth shot in the head - of course, firing each and every shot only if the threat is still presenting itself to you. A little further back and you can point shoot while vertically tracking from groin on up to head. Further back still, you can aim in and do likewise with the vertical tracking. This way you acquire your target earlier than you would should you draw and immediately try to bring your pistol up high enough to fire at your opponent’s head. (Of course I am talking about a standing, or maybe seated, person who is your target.)
Being concerned that your first shot should be an incapacitating shot may just get you killed because you may take too much time to bring your weapon on target and fire. You may also miss because the head is an extremity and while you should shoot at center of mass of it, if your shot goes high - what will it hit? A body is wider and taller than a head in normal people. You are much more likely to score body hits, either in the chest cavity or the abdomen or the groin than you are on a head in almost all circumstances wherein all are available as a target.
I am talking a shootout type situation, not a hostage situation calling for an expert marksman with a scoped, high powered, rifle nor any other situation best suited for a specialist with special equipment and special shots.
all the best,
Glenn B
As to what you seem more likely to be asking seems to be a head versus chest shot. You shoot at the area of your opponent/assailant that is available. If everything is available and the opponent is very close in, I would suggest not bringing the gun up to head or chest levels, nor extending it for a shot, but to shoot from the hip and to hit your opponent in the body anywhere from the groin to the chest.
A bit further off and I would recommend first shooting the body. The ,mid-chest and upper belly area being the area easiest to hit while at the same time offering excellent opportunity for a shot there to incapacitate your opponent AND to allow for the widest margin of error laterally and vertically (with an opponent facing you or with his back to you) than if you shot at just the neck or head. So if you are shooting a bit off because the pucker factor has grabbed hold of you, or if your target moves just as you fire, the chances of still getting a hit are increased if aiming at the chest as opposed to the head with normally proportioned people as your target.
If this does not stop your opponent and a head shot is still an option, fire at the head next if you must, such as if it appears the target is wearing body armor or you can try something else. Another good option to consider, the something else you can try, is firing at the groin (the lower abdomen, you are not aiming at the sexual body parts) instead of the head. Firing at the groin also offers more of a chance of hitting your opponent than does a head shot. Like a chest shot, a groin shot has a lot of area above it and below it (both thighs), and to the sides laterally (the hips). Shots in this area can effectively stop an assailant.
Of course, where you shoot not only depends on what is available on your target but on things like: distance to the target, type of weapon you are firing, if you are firing from an aimed in position, if you are point shooting, if you are hip or push off shooting, if you are shooting from the draw, if you are vertically tracking and so on. Bear in mind, if you are shooting along the lines of paper punching, then when you draw or otherwise bring your weapon up to take aim or point shoot - you have plenty of time to bring it up level to be high enough to fire at your opponent’s head. This is just not going to be the case in a lot of real shooting situations in which you may find yourself. You may have to start firing at what you consider a less than ‘best’ area on your opponent to try to stop him from continuing to be a threat. If he continues to be a threat you may need to continue to fire and hope to be able to get a shot in a better area. If this does not work you may need to keep shooting until you do find an area to hit that brings about the desired result. This is one of the reasons I practice vertical tracking when possible, and vertical tracking combined with getting distance, seeking cover, using cover and so on. With vertical tracking, if close enough to fire from the hip, you can fire your first shot as soon as the gun clears the leather and is pointed at the target often resulting in a thigh or groin shot, the second shot will be higher in the abdomen, the third shot in the chest, the fourth shot in the head - of course, firing each and every shot only if the threat is still presenting itself to you. A little further back and you can point shoot while vertically tracking from groin on up to head. Further back still, you can aim in and do likewise with the vertical tracking. This way you acquire your target earlier than you would should you draw and immediately try to bring your pistol up high enough to fire at your opponent’s head. (Of course I am talking about a standing, or maybe seated, person who is your target.)
Being concerned that your first shot should be an incapacitating shot may just get you killed because you may take too much time to bring your weapon on target and fire. You may also miss because the head is an extremity and while you should shoot at center of mass of it, if your shot goes high - what will it hit? A body is wider and taller than a head in normal people. You are much more likely to score body hits, either in the chest cavity or the abdomen or the groin than you are on a head in almost all circumstances wherein all are available as a target.
I am talking a shootout type situation, not a hostage situation calling for an expert marksman with a scoped, high powered, rifle nor any other situation best suited for a specialist with special equipment and special shots.
all the best,
Glenn B
I am sure not an expert on the topic.
I think excecuting a planned operation by military folks who have the element of surprise would suggest the opportunity for precision.A SWAT sniper taking out a bad guy who has a hostage would require instant incapacitation.
I speculate,for civilians,we must be faced with "clear and imminent danger of death or great bodily harm"
Could be if you have time to get steady,have a clear sight picture,and squeeze off like a bullseye shooter at a head shot,1)You may have had time to get cover2),leave,or3) dump at least 5 rounds into center of mass.
If the clear and present danger is the guy is shooting at you...if he hits you it is going to mess up your form.Better you should mess up his form and keep messing it up till its done.Count shots to know when to change mags,not to know when to quit shooting.
I think excecuting a planned operation by military folks who have the element of surprise would suggest the opportunity for precision.A SWAT sniper taking out a bad guy who has a hostage would require instant incapacitation.
I speculate,for civilians,we must be faced with "clear and imminent danger of death or great bodily harm"
Could be if you have time to get steady,have a clear sight picture,and squeeze off like a bullseye shooter at a head shot,1)You may have had time to get cover2),leave,or3) dump at least 5 rounds into center of mass.
If the clear and present danger is the guy is shooting at you...if he hits you it is going to mess up your form.Better you should mess up his form and keep messing it up till its done.Count shots to know when to change mags,not to know when to quit shooting.
Double Naught Spy
New member
That may be one example, but certainly not the only justification for the use of lethal force.
Who said anything about bullseye shooting? The same snap sight picture technique used to put rounds into the chest can be used to put rounds into the head.
When folks practice Mozambique fail to stop drills, they don't take the time to line up the head shot like a bullseye shooter.
Glenn Bartley
New member
So Clay, if talk is so cheap, why not give a little up and explain exactly why you made that earth shattering revelation here in this forum. Are you trying to make a point relative to this discussion, or are you just trying to imply you have done it all and need not talk about it? If you are trying to contribute to the discussion, in a meaningful way, would you please be so kind as to share your point of view in more detail with us. On the other hand, if you have done it all and need not talk about it - well I can understand you don't need to discuss the issue to benefit yourself but I wonder if you would mind doing so to benefit the rest of us. Please expound upon your statement so there can be no mistaking your particular point of view or expertise on the subject at hand, old timers like me need it spelled out a little better. Thanks.
All the best,
Glenn B
Glenn,
Yes, I was a bit brief in that. Most who have posted have been quite candid, didn’t mean to offend.
I don’t accept claims of “what I’m going to do” nor claims of “I can do..” as what is actually going to happen. I do preplan and I do practice but I’ve been in a few sticky situations in my life and after each one realized that any preplanning was useless for what happened.
An LEO has probably been there enough to know what he will do, but 99.99 percent of us don’t know what’s going to go down.
Your questions are valid. I’ll try to do better next time.
Sorry about that.
Yes, I was a bit brief in that. Most who have posted have been quite candid, didn’t mean to offend.
I don’t accept claims of “what I’m going to do” nor claims of “I can do..” as what is actually going to happen. I do preplan and I do practice but I’ve been in a few sticky situations in my life and after each one realized that any preplanning was useless for what happened.
An LEO has probably been there enough to know what he will do, but 99.99 percent of us don’t know what’s going to go down.
Your questions are valid. I’ll try to do better next time.
Sorry about that.