Has there EVER been a documented case..

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ng, if you want something and it's not out there, knock yourself out and make it. Just don't complain that it did not work out the way you thought it would (and ended up more like more experienced people told you it would.... imagine that!).

All I said was I wanted the 30/30 to be loaded the best it can be.

I fail to see what exactly that load could do better, other than wreck brass.....

If you want a 100ish grain bullet launched to 3K foot/seconds, there are easier and safer ways to do it than hot loading a .30/30 with pointy varmit bullets..... but if that's what you REALLY REALLY REALLY want to do, well, it's a free country, or used to be, anyhow: Knock yourself out. Tell us how it works out for you, over time......
 
All I said was I wanted the 30/30 to be loaded the best it can be.

Then honestly, you're going to have to load your own. It's true of any combination of caliber and firearm. If you want the best accuracy, distance and consistency you'll have to load your own rounds.

... why is everyone afraid to up the loads?
I've never loaded for 30-30, but every maximum load in the 49th addition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook, pages 213-214, is under 40,000 CUP for pressure. You up the load, you increase the pressure and then it doesn't matter what the magazine is or isn't or what type of bullet it's shooting, you're greatly increasing the odds of the receiver failing and very bad things happening to anyone shooting that rifle. My Marlin 336 wasn't designed to take the pressures a Mauser 98 receiver can take and my Marlin is 60 years younger than my 98 style receiver. Nor is it ever going to be sub 1" MOA at 600 yards without a major amount of work being done to it. I doubt there's a 30-30 made that could be.

Also, just what would be the point of increasing the load? A faster bullet isn't going to necessarily be more accurate. My 6.5x55 CG-63 target rifle shoots wider and wider groups the more I increase a load that cause velocity to go above 2,650 fps with a 140gr HPBT...and I have to start watching for the warning signs of too much pressure since I'm nearing maximum loads. Velocity is only one part of accuracy, not the key. I've only been reloading for 2 years and am just scratching the surface of what accurate, efficient and effective loads are comprised of. It's a host of variables. If I want to shoot a 6.5x55 faster and further than accepted maximum loads, there are many other calibers in the 6.5 family that will accommodate that need.
A 110gr 30-30 will give you roughly the same velocity as my 6.5x55 140gr round. If you're after more "stopping" power for hunting? That 110gr will give you 2,390 J of energy, and a slower moving 170gr at 2,227 ft/s will give you 2,539 J of energy. Hunting is what the round was designed for, not benchrest shooting, long distance or screaming velocities. If you want the tightest of tight groupings time and time again from your level action, reloading is the only way. You'll have to find the combination or powder, bullet, case and primer that works best in that one particular rifle and it may or may not be as good a performer in another rifle even if that other rifle is the same make model...or even the one that rolled off the assembly line right after the other. You'd also have to learn to trust people when a group of them is telling you something is unsafe.

So, after all these posts, what would be the point of increasing a commercially made 30-30 load and making the round a potential danger to older guns and/or actions not designed to take it? Exactly what is the potential the 30-30 isn't living up to? I can't see it at all. The 30-30 does what it designed to do and does it well just the way it is...if it didn't it wouldn't be one of the most popular rounds ever over a century after it's introduction. Even if a single minor improvement is never made to it, it's still going to be around a lot longer than any of us here.

You presented a question with a "prove me wrong by doing x", not "y" or "z"..."x" was the only result method you'd accept. Sorry, it doesn't make you right and them wrong. You've put forth a challenge or question (depending how you look at it) that you can't follow to prove yourself correct. Can you provide any documentation or a single published study that hotter loads wouldn't be unsafe or that spitzers in a tube magazine are safe? If I was about to go hunting or shoot next to someone with a tube fed 30-30 with loaded with spitzers or a hotter than maximum load...I'd put a lot distance between us. Who knows, I may have, but I've got enough faith in the reasoning put forth by the naysayers regardless of whether or not I can pull up an article or incident on the web. Sometimes you've got to have a little faith in people judgements and their reasons, to me the reasons here make perfect sense. A pointed bullet sitting on top of a primer of another live round...recoil...dropped rifle...honestly what's so hard to understand here? I wish you well, because an "I told you so" with regards to safety wouldn't give me any satisfaction at all.
 
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Nope, it's deteriorated into a "Nobody can give me a published incident and I haven't seen it on the news, so I must be right in assuming that the ammomakers are all wrong and so's everybody who disagrees with me here" thread.

You just want the .30-30 to be all it can be.
With minor (SAFE) tweaking exceptions like the Hornady load, the makers think it is.
If you think it isn't, learn to make your own.
Difficult to understand your purpose in prolonging this.

It's gone beyond any semblance of reason in trying to get through to you.
I'm done with this one.
Denis
 
It is surprising to find a complete lack of "evidence" on the internet of chain primer detonation due to pointed bullets in a tube magazine. I'm not going there and will stick with the common sense proposition that bullet shape/composition is an important safety consideration in tube magazines.
 
let the rest of us in on it

Um, well, you is the only one argueing this. I saw to you, go get a 30-30, load it up as you want and go shoot it. Maybe nothing will happen, then again...why risk it? Get a 30-06 and leave the woods gun at home as many have done.
 
I find it surprising as well.. And if you feel comfortable with the established loads, great. And I mean that and for all the rest of you as well.. I've shot some Remington 150 Core-Lokt with very satisfactory results.

And DPris.. Once again, you and others aren't reading correctly what's written. I never said or assumed that " I was right and everyone else was wrong " What I DID say, again referencing the original question was there ever a documented case of a chain reaction firing in a 30/30 ?

Simple question... got lots of good advice why not to do it along with smatterings of other logic, bull headedness, self destructiveness, and a whole lot of people misrepresenting or taking out of context what I said, but not one definitive answer. Take for example jimbob86's remark about me " wanting a " pointy 3k varmit round. Show me where I said that . Please, if you can't ( and you won't ) STOP misrepresenting what I said or didn't say.

So by not finding a documented case I'm not jumping up in the air exclaiming " victory " or having a party celebration. The question still is out there. And its only a question.
 
Sorry Markj you posted just before I did. I was replying to jmortimer..

And actually, I have a 30-06 and a .270, and a .303 Brit and of course some .22's as well.. Again, I just like the 30/30 and people to live up to their full potential ( safety ) I think no one can disagree with that ? Course I have been known to be wrong on occasion.
 
All I said was I wanted the 30/30 to be loaded the best it can be.

That might be considered an overly broad subjective statement. What exactly are you looking for? What would it take to make the .30-30 the best it can be?

Keep in mind that most actions in that caliber are only rated for about 42K lbs, so between the cartridge capacity, powder choices, and bullets available, you're limited by that pressure constraint.

It would be possible to have a falling block action made for the cartridge that would handle considerably more pressure but the powders available might limit your ability to squeeze enough into the case. You could always go with an Improved chamber, but that only gives about 2 more grains of powder capacity.

So, what exactly are you looking to achieve? What would make the .30-30 all it could be? Please be specific. Bullet weight, velocity, pressure, what are you looking to do?
 
Actually, the original post was trying to get a documented case of a chain firing in a 30/30. While there has been a lot of logical advice the answer so far is a simple no. The subject, as per norm, gets a little off subject and instead of answering the question, and as in any high school debating team, it invariably gets answered in the form of another question.

The " best it can be " can take on many forms, larger game, medium game, varmints and the like so I guess the answer is again the best it can be for a specific purpose. The below sites were interesting to me. They may answer some of your questions.

While not advocating any of these sites as " par excellence " here are a few that an be accessed in a regular Google Search. I do not endorse any of them since that is not my area of expertise. Please don't do like some and misrepresent what I am saying. That's getting a bit annoying. These are sites I found in just a minute or two. Whether they hold up to scrutiny of a qualified source is yet another question. In a calm and logical manner, I'd be interested in what the people that do have expertise think... A bit off track perhaps, but since this is the direction the thread turned........

30-30 again
Marlin Leverguns
30-30 varmint loads
 
Actually, the original post was trying to get a documented case of a chain firing in a 30/30

You may never find a documented case of a magazine detonation in a .30-30 on the internet. The simple fact is that the .30-30 has been with us since 1895 and the internet came into popular use about 1990, almost 100 years after the cartridge was invented. The simple fact is that lots of printed matter prior to the 1990s is not internet available. It's lost to printed archives, not available, simply impossible to find.

So, lets go back to your original question:
I'm asking because I'm curious, have a 30/30 and if its practically impossible to chain react an explosion why is everyone afraid to up the loads ?

That is your closing question, and you're assuming that everyone is afraid to "up the loads" whatever that means. So, I ask again, exactly what do you want to do with that cartridge? Specifically, bullet, velocity, pressure. If you don't know exactly what you want to do, how are we supposed to help you find the answer?
 
Expertise in a 30/30 comes in the form of 170 grain flat points. My friend knocked down a Mule Deer with one and it was DRT, no tracking or anything, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot an Elk with those 170 gr FPs.
 
I googled your .30-30 varmint loads and found an article by Paco Kelly. Mr. Kelly has forgotten more about the .30-30 than I know and likely will ever know. If he says that it's possible to run a 100 grain bullet to 3000 fps from a 20 inch carbine, believe him. He's done it.

However, you won't find any factory ammo that duplicates what Paco has been doing. If you notice when you read the article, he gives you his recipes and cautions you about pressure. That's important.

For the very best information on the .30-30 Winchester, go over to Paco's site and browse around. There is a lot of information there and everything I've tried has been just as he described it.
 
Well. I'm glad you looked at the site I mentioned. He and some of the other sites I mentioned started me thinking why this rarely gets mentioned and if it is as we both know creates quite a stir. Since I know nothing about Mr. Kelly I didn't know whether this was a pie in the sky type thing or on the level. Nor do I have any idea when it was written and if this is actually old or new info. I didn't notice if he mentioned loading more than one in the tube with his recipes. To me that would be an indicator if he is comfortable with his loads.

I believe " upping the loads " has been answered by Mr. Kelly. He apparently wasn't satisfied with the present loads and/or is an innovator that likes to see where he can go with his continuing research and how far he can push the envelope..

And I will visit his site for my own curiosity. I like innovators.
 
It could be possible there are no "documented" cases lately, because almost from the beginning, the cartridges have been loaded with round or flat points.

I don't understand the belligerence...:confused: if YOU want to try it... TRY it. :rolleyes: Just be sure to warn anyone around you that you are firing rounds that might possibly blow up your rifle. Give them the option of moving a safe distance away from you before you pull the trigger.

It would be similar to loading 10% above maximum safe loads. They MIGHT not blow up your gun... Personally, I'd rather be safe. If you want better ballistics, get the correct caliber.
 
If you like .22lr/.22WMR, take a look at Paco Kelly's Accu'rizr (or however he spells it)
Buddy of mine got one and we used it...interesting effect it has on helping rimfire ammo to reach its full potential!
Really seems to help Micro-groove barrels by fattening the bullet out to really DIG into the microgrooves!!

Since the birth of my twin boys I've been pinching pennies, especially since there were heavy medical costs early on...
but now that things have leveled out I'm looking forward to getting one of those accurizer's...along with some other fun stuff ;)
 
Well. I'm glad you looked at the site I mentioned.
A 100 grain bullet at 3,000fps is not the best the 30-30 can be unless all you care about is velocity.

That's a very specialized loading with a very light-for-caliber bullet which isn't good for much else than varminting and not very good even for that.

Varminting is most commonly associated with the following requirements.

1. Very stringent accuracy.
2. Flat trajectories.
3. Guns that are easily shot from a rest.
4. Light recoil.

None of those automatically bring tube magazine, lever-action rifles in .30 caliber to mind and for several good reasons most of which have absolutely nothing to do with magazine tube detonations.

That isn't making the 30-30 the best it can be, it's trying to make a 30-30 do something that it will never do well in general.

On top of that, even the author acknowledges that this loading shouldn't be used in every 30-30 levergun out there. Ammo makers don't have that luxury--they need to sell ammo that is safe in any gun that it might be used in that's in working condition.

I don't know what you mean about it "creating a stir". It doesn't create a stir to try to make a tube-fed, 30 cal levergun, into a varmint rifle. It's not very commonly discussed because it's nothing other than an academic experiment.

People who know what they're doing and want to launch reasonable weight 30 caliber bullets at high velocities don't pick up a tube-fed 30-30 in an attempt to solve their problem. Knowledgeable people who want to get into varminting, don't turn to tube-fed leverguns in 30-30 as a starting point to work from.
He apparently wasn't satisfied with the present loads and/or is an innovator that likes to see where he can go with his continuing research and how far he can push the envelope...
You can do that sort of thing if you're using your own rifles and you handload. It's not reasonable to imply that there's some huge conspiracy keeping the 30-30 from being its best because of mythical safety concerns. There are both real safety concerns, and other considerations that will keep the 30-30 from breaking the 3,000fps barrier for the forseeable future with any sort of round that would be reasonably practical and that could be sold without fear of being sued out of business.

Even Marlin tacitly admitted this when they recently developed the .308 Marlin rather than try to figure out how to soup up the 30-30 any farther. There's only so much you can do with the 30-30 given its limitations.

By the way, the .308 Marlin also uses the elastomer tip to prevent the mag tube detonations that you have stated you believe are impossible. This means, of course, that the conspiracy has spread to other cartridges. Now they're not just trying to keep the 30-30 from being the best it can be, they have actually developed a brand new cartridge and are trying to keep it from being the best it can be right out of the gate.

Or perhaps they added the elastomer tips to the .308 Marlin just so they could keep the mag tube detonation myth cover-up alive for other calibers like the 30-30.

If you want to duplicate Mr. Kelly's work, you'll have to get into handloading. No ammo company is going to load that kind of ammo for a 30-30.

By the way, his loading isn't nearly as innovative as you think. Remington sold an "Accelerator" round for the 30-30 that launched a saboted round at over 3400fps. It's now discontinued because it didn't sell well once people figured out how it performed in practice. It was trying to get the caliber to do something it wasn't designed for and it didn't work well.

Your whole premise is badly flawed.

The 30-30 isn't being handicapped by mythical safety cautions. Not only are there some real concerns about the possibility of mag tube detonations there are also other safety concerns that limit the top velocities with reasonable bullet weights as well as other practical limitations imposed by factors that have nothing to do with tubular magazines.
 
And this is why facts should rule this conversation instead of supposition, hearsay and innuendo.

Okay tell me what facts you have that it is okay to load spire point bullets in a 30-30 tube ?
 
First, there aren't many people who have handloaded for the 30-30 over the years. Those who have may have read the cautions to not use pointed bullets in tubular-magazine rifles, written in EVERY reloading manual I've ever seen in the past 55 years, or so.

I haven't seen God, but am not taking any chances that he doesn't exist. Anybody who wants to live beyond the next firing of a 30-30 and has a brain in his/her head won't load pointed, hard-nosed bullets. However, if some idiot would like to try it, I'd be glad to give them a few Remington Bronze Point bullets I may have lying around (if I can find them). :eek:
 
ngzcaz said:
Well. I'm glad you looked at the site I mentioned.

That wasn't the first time I've seen that site. I've had it bookmarked for years. Folks who stumble upon it for the first time think it's new information, but it is really fairly old, relative to the internet. I've taken some really interesting loads from the Leverguns site over those years and have made some cool specialty loads with very specific applications. All of those loads are for handloaders because there simply isn't enough market for a broad-based ammunition manufacturer to build what is essentially a niche product for a very tiny percentage of the shooting population. Especially when most of us are handloaders and can make the ammo for ourselves.

The very fact of the matter is that the .30-30 Winchester is best used with a good jacketed bullet in the 150-170 grain weight. Alternatively, a good gas-checked cast bullet in that same weight range. It's been taking game for over a century, and believe me when I tell you that whatever you want to do with the .30-30 has already been done. Hell, I've done most of it, yet when I want good .30-30 ammo I load some jacketed 150 grain roundnose bullets to about 2200 fps and call it good.

Buy a couple of good manuals and learn to handload. There is a whole world out there that you haven't yet discovered.
 
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