Handguns down under, an insight
- Thread starter Dingoboyx
- Start date
Others beat me to it, so I will only reiterate. The right to keep and bear arms is NOT granted by the 2nd amendment. The second amendment is a recognition of a right belonging to free people, by birth. The second amendment is meant to explicitly prohibit the federal government from stripping away a right we are born with: the right to self governance.
If the federal government ever became to tyrannical, only an armed citizenry could possibly rectify the situation.
Personally, I am bothered by legal arguments to the effect guns are necessary for self defense against criminals. While I agree that this is true, I think it is weak legally. The only real reason for an armed citizenry is for collective self defense against tyrants, it is "...necessary to the security of a free state."
If the federal government ever became to tyrannical, only an armed citizenry could possibly rectify the situation.
Personally, I am bothered by legal arguments to the effect guns are necessary for self defense against criminals. While I agree that this is true, I think it is weak legally. The only real reason for an armed citizenry is for collective self defense against tyrants, it is "...necessary to the security of a free state."
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MTR
Yes, lots of aussies travel to the states to compete, especially in CAS and IPSC (or other practical comps). I dont know anyone who repairs rolex watches, my watches are chinese and cost 2 bucks, so when they die, I just shoot it and go buy another one
(bullets are cheaper than batteries)
Yes, lots of aussies travel to the states to compete, especially in CAS and IPSC (or other practical comps). I dont know anyone who repairs rolex watches, my watches are chinese and cost 2 bucks, so when they die, I just shoot it and go buy another one
(bullets are cheaper than batteries)Really, do people have to use the term "sheeple" all the time. It's always said with such a holier than thou attitude that says I'm right and everyone else is wrong.
I'm from Australia too. Have jumped through all the hoops (South Australia's laws are pretty much the same as ACT's by the look of it) and I'm now in the probationary 6 month period before I can buy a handgun. Long arms I'm apparently safe with, but not a handgun yet.
Although I'm not allowed to carry or to use any firearm as a self defence weapon, I have to admit that there hasn't been any time in my life in this country that I would have felt safer had I been carrying. I can't imagine living anywhere that I didn't feel safe unless I had a handgun in my pocket. I've never had anyone pull a weapon on me that I didn't just laugh at, and I was never concerned that the guy screaming at me from another car might pull a gun on me. I'm not overly bothered by the restrictions personally. I guess that might make me a bit unpopular around these parts.
I'm from Australia too. Have jumped through all the hoops (South Australia's laws are pretty much the same as ACT's by the look of it) and I'm now in the probationary 6 month period before I can buy a handgun. Long arms I'm apparently safe with, but not a handgun yet.
Although I'm not allowed to carry or to use any firearm as a self defence weapon, I have to admit that there hasn't been any time in my life in this country that I would have felt safer had I been carrying. I can't imagine living anywhere that I didn't feel safe unless I had a handgun in my pocket. I've never had anyone pull a weapon on me that I didn't just laugh at, and I was never concerned that the guy screaming at me from another car might pull a gun on me. I'm not overly bothered by the restrictions personally. I guess that might make me a bit unpopular around these parts.
How fortunate that those who pulled weapons on you were just joking! One day they may not be and dead is dead...by club, knife or bullet. In the USA we have always liked having the option of determining our own fate. I would personaly find living in your country without the right to bear arms as strange as you would find living here and being able to. What we have here is a couple of centuries of different philosophys of life. Until the meek inherit the earth I would prefer to deal with the reality of human nature in the most efficient way possible.
Bob
S&W 686....an elegant weapon from a more civilized day
Bob
S&W 686....an elegant weapon from a more civilized day
Don't get me wrong. I have no issue with your right to bear arms. What works is what works.
I'm also not too naive to believe that people who really want a gun won't have a gun.
I'm also at the same time happy with the knowledge that the Average Joe (or should I say Bruce - I am in Australia after all) doesn't think that I have a gun, so therefore thinks he should have a gun to protect himself from me, or all the other people who have a gun. While at the same time, I have the opportunity to recreationally shoot - even if I do have to jump through some hoops.
I'm also not too naive to believe that people who really want a gun won't have a gun.
I'm also at the same time happy with the knowledge that the Average Joe (or should I say Bruce - I am in Australia after all) doesn't think that I have a gun, so therefore thinks he should have a gun to protect himself from me, or all the other people who have a gun. While at the same time, I have the opportunity to recreationally shoot - even if I do have to jump through some hoops.
Boarhunter
New member
Frankly, Magnets, I think you miss the point completely.
The issue is not whether you personally feel safe in your home and on your streets (most of us do here as well); the issue is whether your government will decide for you whether you may defend yourself and your family during times when you are not safe, whether that immediate or potential threat is caused by common criminals or by the government itself.
I simply cannot conceive of any free people accepting that level of governmental control over their lives.
Boarhunter
The issue is not whether you personally feel safe in your home and on your streets (most of us do here as well); the issue is whether your government will decide for you whether you may defend yourself and your family during times when you are not safe, whether that immediate or potential threat is caused by common criminals or by the government itself.
I simply cannot conceive of any free people accepting that level of governmental control over their lives.
Boarhunter
fallingblock
New member
Australia nas no heritage of an armed free citizenry....
Hi magnets, and welcome to TFL!
Boarhunter's statement:
Expresses the sentiment of many U.S. gun owners.
Australia began as a convict colony isolated halfway around the earth from the courts which sentenced its inmates.
Only the 'authorities' and their servants had firearms, for obvious reasons.
Developing from penal settlements (except S.A.!) into an agricultural and then an industrial nation the six colonies later federated into Australia were never seriously threatened with invasion, had no civil war, no range wars and comparitively little trouble from native resistance to settlement.
Aside from a few bushrangers plying their trade there was very little armed conflict, and little need to go about armed for the average subject.
Australia shooters do not generally associate firearms with personal freedom,
while a majority of non-shooting Australians have come to fear and loathe guns.
The concept of armed revolution (with the exception of the short-lived Eureka Stockade incident in 1854) is alien to the Australian psyche.
Different history - different culture.
The idea of 'government' being anything other than a benevolent and charitable institution does not have traction in Australia.
But no, Australia's 'gun bans' have not reduced violent crime.
It's alway's about the criminal - not his tools.
Hi magnets, and welcome to TFL!
Boarhunter's statement:
Expresses the sentiment of many U.S. gun owners.
Australia began as a convict colony isolated halfway around the earth from the courts which sentenced its inmates.
Only the 'authorities' and their servants had firearms, for obvious reasons.
Developing from penal settlements (except S.A.!) into an agricultural and then an industrial nation the six colonies later federated into Australia were never seriously threatened with invasion, had no civil war, no range wars and comparitively little trouble from native resistance to settlement.
Aside from a few bushrangers plying their trade there was very little armed conflict, and little need to go about armed for the average subject.
Australia shooters do not generally associate firearms with personal freedom,
while a majority of non-shooting Australians have come to fear and loathe guns.
The concept of armed revolution (with the exception of the short-lived Eureka Stockade incident in 1854) is alien to the Australian psyche.
Different history - different culture.
The idea of 'government' being anything other than a benevolent and charitable institution does not have traction in Australia.
But no, Australia's 'gun bans' have not reduced violent crime.
It's alway's about the criminal - not his tools.
Boarhunter
We dont have the choice here in Oz. We dont have an amendment in our constitution to protect ourselves here. As I understand it, if someone breaks into my house and I belt him over the head with whatever I can find (say a bottle, lamp, vase (seen to many movies) and I injure the theif, I am open to being sued by the burglar. If the burglar stabs me, I may then be justified in retalliating :barf: (See one of my previous posts in this thread.)
If a burglar broke in and I had time to get to my safe and shot him, I would be in the DEEPEST poo poo.
I don't know where or when our gun laws went so 'off the rails' I only know that when the Government decided they wanted to get rid of guns, they organised a massacer found & set up a poor sucker to be blamed for it, and that gave the govt (with the help of the public majority) full support to really strangle us with gun laws.
I am grateful we can still get licences to own & shoot here in Oz, but you have to get ANY idea that they are for protection out of your head. Long guns in Oz are for hunting (with permits) pest eradication (with permits) and handguns are for CLUB TARGET COMPETITION only.
The gun buy back & the strict gun laws unfortunately only cost the citizens of Oz millions & millions of dollars, and cost us shooters lots of treasured firearms we had owned for years & made it very hard for us to get or keep guns.
The CRIMINALS of course forgot to hand theirs in, so it only affected law obiding people, there are thousands & thousands of guns still in the hands of criminals and gun violence still occurs.
The best thing about our gun laws is the 'lock away your firearm' laws. Before the massacer that wrecked everything happened, it was quite regular that children would get dad's gun & ammo out of the closet and shoot someone by accident (negligence of the gun owner) . Thest types of accident rarely (if ever, cant remember the last time) ever happen these days. Backyard swimming pools are the biggest killer of children here now, I believe, people insist on having pools and not fencing them off from children properly (although the Govt is working on that now) Can see a time in the near future, when swimming pools will be targeted for strict laws (wonder if there will be a buy back?)
We dont have the choice here in Oz. We dont have an amendment in our constitution to protect ourselves here. As I understand it, if someone breaks into my house and I belt him over the head with whatever I can find (say a bottle, lamp, vase (seen to many movies
) and I injure the theif, I am open to being sued by the burglar. If the burglar stabs me, I may then be justified in retalliating :barf: (See one of my previous posts in this thread.)If a burglar broke in and I had time to get to my safe and shot him, I would be in the DEEPEST poo poo.
I don't know where or when our gun laws went so 'off the rails' I only know that when the Government decided they wanted to get rid of guns, they organised a massacer found & set up a poor sucker to be blamed for it, and that gave the govt (with the help of the public majority) full support to really strangle us with gun laws.
I am grateful we can still get licences to own & shoot here in Oz, but you have to get ANY idea that they are for protection out of your head. Long guns in Oz are for hunting (with permits) pest eradication (with permits) and handguns are for CLUB TARGET COMPETITION only.
The gun buy back & the strict gun laws unfortunately only cost the citizens of Oz millions & millions of dollars, and cost us shooters lots of treasured firearms we had owned for years & made it very hard for us to get or keep guns.
The CRIMINALS of course forgot to hand theirs in, so it only affected law obiding people, there are thousands & thousands of guns still in the hands of criminals and gun violence still occurs.
The best thing about our gun laws is the 'lock away your firearm' laws. Before the massacer that wrecked everything happened, it was quite regular that children would get dad's gun & ammo out of the closet and shoot someone by accident (negligence of the gun owner) . Thest types of accident rarely (if ever, cant remember the last time) ever happen these days. Backyard swimming pools are the biggest killer of children here now, I believe, people insist on having pools and not fencing them off from children properly (although the Govt is working on that now) Can see a time in the near future, when swimming pools will be targeted for strict laws (wonder if there will be a buy back?)
Quite right Fallingblock
Except that we have been under serious threat in the past by the Japanese in WW11 (Darwin was invaded I believe) Sydney was attacked by the mini subs, and we are actually, even today, in constant threat of invasion from Indonesia
(Indonesians actually believe they own Australia & that we Australians are keeping them from their property)
Evidently there is a map that was drawn up with a line across the top of Australia, so that if the Indonesians had invaded, they would be handed that land above the line. But that never eventuated, fortunately (yet)
There are 200 million + Indonesians (huge army) and only 50 million(ish) Aussies and our forces suffer from lack of funding, high criterium to get in (you have to be a university graduate) and have PERFECT health.
You watch tho, If Australia ever gets attacked/invaded, the people that voted for our gun laws, will be pooping themselves and demanding the Govt. supplies us with guns..... (apart from the seriousness of that type of situation occuring & I hope it never does, It would be quite funny) People then might realise that it isnt a good idea to disarm an entire country, if the military is under funded and under manned (& womanned)
Except that we have been under serious threat in the past by the Japanese in WW11 (Darwin was invaded I believe) Sydney was attacked by the mini subs, and we are actually, even today, in constant threat of invasion from Indonesia
(Indonesians actually believe they own Australia & that we Australians are keeping them from their property) Evidently there is a map that was drawn up with a line across the top of Australia, so that if the Indonesians had invaded, they would be handed that land above the line. But that never eventuated, fortunately (yet)
There are 200 million + Indonesians (huge army) and only 50 million(ish) Aussies and our forces suffer from lack of funding, high criterium to get in (you have to be a university graduate) and have PERFECT health.
You watch tho, If Australia ever gets attacked/invaded, the people that voted for our gun laws, will be pooping themselves and demanding the Govt. supplies us with guns..... (apart from the seriousness of that type of situation occuring & I hope it never does, It would be quite funny)
People then might realise that it isnt a good idea to disarm an entire country, if the military is under funded and under manned (& womanned)Self defence in Oz
Hi Dingoboyx, Not quite true, I agree that in Australia you cannot possess a gun for self defence BUT you can legally use one for self defence. If you legally have a gun in your safe at home and are in fear for your life from an intruder and can get your gun out, you are entitled to use it for self defence, you can use any weapon for self defence in your home. Please check this out with your local police.
Hi Dingoboyx, Not quite true, I agree that in Australia you cannot possess a gun for self defence BUT you can legally use one for self defence. If you legally have a gun in your safe at home and are in fear for your life from an intruder and can get your gun out, you are entitled to use it for self defence, you can use any weapon for self defence in your home. Please check this out with your local police.
I hear you Nev
But, I think it would be a MESSY few years of legal fighting to prove you were in the right. In that time, you would be stripped of your guns while it is decided. Because our guns (same in NSW?)have to be stored in a safe, preferably with a trigger lock, with mags, ammo, bolts etc stored locked separately elseware, It would be hard from a legal standpoint, to explain how the BG broke in and within 30 seconds you had pumped him full of lead
For example, If I were woken up in the middle of the night by the front door getting busted down, I know it would take me up to a minute to get my safe open to get the Glock out, another 30 seconds to open the other safe & get the mag out (Have 5, one mag is always loaded with 7 rounds) So being realistic, it is really not an option. However, should a person be norty and have their gun under their pillow (just in case) and they shoot the intruder 20 seconds after he smashes the door down, you would likely be charged with not storing your firearm in a correct manner, which leaves you open to being charged with illegal use of a firearm?
Do you see what I mean? Yes you would have saved your skin, but life would be hell (and you would lose your guns)
It is the same in your car, if you get pulled over for say speeding or breath testing, and the cop see's you have a baseball bat/large screwdriver/tireiron next to the drivers seat, you better not say it is for PROTECTION, you can get charged for having a weapon in reach of the driver, and then you loose your guns (that are at home in the safe)
Summing up, yes you might end up defending yourself with a gun here, but it would depend on circumstances & whether your 'trial by media' supported your legal case, or went against it It would not be an easy time, and you wouldn't be able to get your guns back until the court case was over. If you get charged with ANYTHING, you wouldnt get your guns back.
If the above scenario happened to me, I think I would bail up the burglar with my gun, but beat him to death with a golf club or the like, and deny getting the gun out at all
But, I think it would be a MESSY few years of legal fighting to prove you were in the right. In that time, you would be stripped of your guns while it is decided. Because our guns (same in NSW?)have to be stored in a safe, preferably with a trigger lock, with mags, ammo, bolts etc stored locked separately elseware, It would be hard from a legal standpoint, to explain how the BG broke in and within 30 seconds you had pumped him full of lead
For example, If I were woken up in the middle of the night by the front door getting busted down, I know it would take me up to a minute to get my safe open to get the Glock out, another 30 seconds to open the other safe & get the mag out (Have 5, one mag is always loaded with 7 rounds) So being realistic, it is really not an option. However, should a person be norty and have their gun under their pillow (just in case) and they shoot the intruder 20 seconds after he smashes the door down, you would likely be charged with not storing your firearm in a correct manner, which leaves you open to being charged with illegal use of a firearm?
Do you see what I mean? Yes you would have saved your skin, but life would be hell (and you would lose your guns)
It is the same in your car, if you get pulled over for say speeding or breath testing, and the cop see's you have a baseball bat/large screwdriver/tireiron next to the drivers seat, you better not say it is for PROTECTION, you can get charged for having a weapon in reach of the driver, and then you loose your guns (that are at home in the safe)
Summing up, yes you might end up defending yourself with a gun here, but it would depend on circumstances & whether your 'trial by media' supported your legal case, or went against it
It would not be an easy time, and you wouldn't be able to get your guns back until the court case was over. If you get charged with ANYTHING, you wouldnt get your guns back.If the above scenario happened to me, I think I would bail up the burglar with my gun, but beat him to death with a golf club or the like, and deny getting the gun out at all
Magnets
I just re read your last post.... Good point
How to word this correctly, I'm not wanting to offend anyone, so here goes.
Within the gun (especially hand gun) fraternity, you can really say there are three types of individuals.
1/ Sensible, safe, responsible HG owners
2/ Idiots, who shouldn't have access to HG's but are allowed to have them
3/ Criminals
Criminals will always have access to and get guns from somewhere, no two ways about that, its just a fact.
I have read in posts on here, that guys have mentioned that some of their friends or people they know or saw at a range etc, that really shouldn't have guns for various reasons, unsafe handling, disrespect of safety, carelessness etc.... but they have the right to own and carry a gun :barf: I bet most 1's reading this know a few folks (number 2's) they wish didn't have a gun(s) but they can't be stopped from having guns. The 1's worry the 2's are an accident waiting to happen.
I guess, If anything good is to be said about our gun laws, is that number 2's wont get access to HG's (unless they want to become number 3's)
Like Magnets said, so few people in Oz have HG's, that we can go out and about every day without even the slightest chance of being shot, because no one other than criminals are out there with guns. Most home invasions, the burglar wont have a gun, robbers usually just rip off your stuff and stick your toothbrush where the sun dont shine :barf: but home invasions where occupants get killed are very rare (usually within the 'drug & bikie world, so they are 3's anyway)
Just the way it is, I guess, just gotta keep hoop jumpin'
I just re read your last post.... Good point
How to word this correctly, I'm not wanting to offend anyone, so here goes.
Within the gun (especially hand gun) fraternity, you can really say there are three types of individuals.
1/ Sensible, safe, responsible HG owners
2/ Idiots, who shouldn't have access to HG's but are allowed to have them
3/ Criminals
Criminals will always have access to and get guns from somewhere, no two ways about that, its just a fact.
I have read in posts on here, that guys have mentioned that some of their friends or people they know or saw at a range etc, that really shouldn't have guns for various reasons, unsafe handling, disrespect of safety, carelessness etc.... but they have the right to own and carry a gun :barf: I bet most 1's reading this know a few folks (number 2's) they wish didn't have a gun(s) but they can't be stopped from having guns. The 1's worry the 2's are an accident waiting to happen.
I guess, If anything good is to be said about our gun laws, is that number 2's wont get access to HG's (unless they want to become number 3's)
Like Magnets said, so few people in Oz have HG's, that we can go out and about every day without even the slightest chance of being shot, because no one other than criminals are out there with guns. Most home invasions, the burglar wont have a gun, robbers usually just rip off your stuff and stick your toothbrush where the sun dont shine :barf: but home invasions where occupants get killed are very rare (usually within the 'drug & bikie world, so they are 3's anyway)
Just the way it is, I guess, just gotta keep hoop jumpin'
fallingblock
New member
Too right, Dingoboyx
Although, should your aim be true, and the criminal miscreant expire,
there would be only your account of the home invasion....
Just sayin'
Unfortunately for us mere citizen/subjects,
an alarming percentage of Australian police fall into category 2!
Some even qualify for #3.
I think that was a point that boarhunter was addressing:
The vast majority of Americans have nothing to fear from their lawfully armed neighbours and fellow citizens.
Criminals in the U.S., just as here, tend to shoot other criminals.
The critical difference is that, in the U.S.,
should the armed criminal decide to shoot you,
you are able to dispute the decision.
Although, should your aim be true, and the criminal miscreant expire,
there would be only your account of the home invasion....
Just sayin'
Unfortunately for us mere citizen/subjects,
an alarming percentage of Australian police fall into category 2!
Some even qualify for #3.
I think that was a point that boarhunter was addressing:
The vast majority of Americans have nothing to fear from their lawfully armed neighbours and fellow citizens.
Criminals in the U.S., just as here, tend to shoot other criminals.
The critical difference is that, in the U.S.,
should the armed criminal decide to shoot you,
you are able to dispute the decision.
Thank you for your post. While I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and our Australian friends I must admit your lack of liberties in the area of firearms is disturbing to me. From what I understand you were once a frontier nation like the US. Its such a shame to see noble hardworking men stripped of what was in the past a wonderful part of their heritage. Let this be a lesson to us all.
I feel real bad for you Aussies... I truly do... All the other reasons for lawful gun ownership and responsible use of such aside...
God forbid the day if your great, safe, disarmed, and unprotected country is threatened... Unlike Australia, if such an event occurred in the U.S. (assuming further ludicrous restrictions are not enacted), I would feel a lot better with armed citizens able and ready alongside myself and my fellow servicemen/women to defend our way of life from invaders. I don't know many foreigners who would want to tangle with some of the fishermen up here... They're very territorial... They cooperate with us because they love us, respect us, and understand our reasons for boarding them. Plus the added fact that we're there also to save them if their ship goes down...
If the threat from Indonesia is as you say, I feel very badly for you my friend... Very badly indeed...
IMO there is no place on earth that is 100% safe. Period. I doubt I will ever hear an argument that will convince me otherwise. I have a wife, child, and another on the way; I will do everything in my power to have the best tools available for the protection of them, myself, my country, and our way of life. I will not see myself, my family, or my countrymen at the mercy of a criminal, terrorist, or hostile force. That's what I swore an oath for... That's why I own guns... And that is one of the many creed's by which I live...
God forbid the day if your great, safe, disarmed, and unprotected country is threatened... Unlike Australia, if such an event occurred in the U.S. (assuming further ludicrous restrictions are not enacted), I would feel a lot better with armed citizens able and ready alongside myself and my fellow servicemen/women to defend our way of life from invaders. I don't know many foreigners who would want to tangle with some of the fishermen up here... They're very territorial... They cooperate with us because they love us, respect us, and understand our reasons for boarding them. Plus the added fact that we're there also to save them if their ship goes down...
If the threat from Indonesia is as you say, I feel very badly for you my friend... Very badly indeed...
IMO there is no place on earth that is 100% safe. Period. I doubt I will ever hear an argument that will convince me otherwise. I have a wife, child, and another on the way; I will do everything in my power to have the best tools available for the protection of them, myself, my country, and our way of life. I will not see myself, my family, or my countrymen at the mercy of a criminal, terrorist, or hostile force. That's what I swore an oath for... That's why I own guns... And that is one of the many creed's by which I live...