Handgun for brown-bear defense any real experience?

There's an old joke about the guy who wanted to buy a big 9mm pistol for bear defense. The fellow in the gun store couldn't talk him out of 9mm so he finally showed him a little tiny Kel Tec. The customer asked him why such a little pistol. Said the shopkeeper, "The smaller the 9mm pistol the less it will hurt when the bear takes it away from you and sticks it up your ...:rolleyes: "

Having said that I used to carry a .44 when I was out blackberry picking in bear country but I'm thinking seriously of getting one of these new Taurus revolvers. Its .500 magnum caliber but is small enough so it won't hurt quite as much as a long barreled revolver if the bear gets ahold of it. :D

Here is a similar model Ruger. It is available in .454 and .480. Doesn't have ports and only weights 41 ounces but the .454 will shoot .45 colt so practice won't be so painful.
 
I would also suggest a revolver in 45/70 or 44/40 if you want to use a pistol. Otherwise I would go with a good lever gun in those calibers or 444 as well. I gues the 9mm would be good to shoot yourself in the head to relieve the pain and put yourself out of misery when the bear is tearing you apart. :eek: Just my opinion.
 
the extreme penetrating (and bone-crushing)
....handgun round?

Am I the only one that is wildly amused?

Hey, Harley-
Remember the Famous TFL Hangun Hog Challenge?
Just how hard did you drop your hog with them there "extreme penetrating (and bone-crushing)" 9mm rounds?
Or were they 45's?
Was he hit?
Could we know?

But a Brown Bear; that's different. They drop as soon as they feel the sting.
"Ouch....nite, nite now", said the Big Bad Bear. "I do believe I have been shot".

:D
Rich
 
I guess what bothers me in all this is that there are two main styles of encounters with Brer Big Bear: First is the hunt, where you're trying to see the bear before he sees you. Your preference is a shot from what you might call a safe distance: Safe for you, not the bear. Even in such a quasi-controlled circumstance there are many stories of hair-raising adventures and injuries/deaths.

The next deal bears more on this thread: You're wandering along, minding your own business, and a bear attacks. Remember, if he doesn't attack, you can't shoot. Agin the law.

Now, most survivors' stories include, "...and, suddenly..." Yeah, suddenly. As in no warning, it says in the interview from the hospital.

I'll take wisdom over valor, any day. Over the last seven years of reading Alaska guys' comments about Big Bears, I gotta go with their consensus that something on the order of a .454 Casull is a minimum starting spot. And I'd spend some serious time in being very fast about ability to go into action if the need arises.

Not that I wouldn't rather have a bunch more gun than a Casull...

:), Art
 
Art, since this thread opened I have talked with a fellow who actually did hunt black bear with a pistol. He used a .44 magnum and hard cast bullets. He is also the owner of a S&W .500 magnum and says that he's selling it but was unclear on the reason.

Another aquaintance, a FFL, said that the .454 has about twice the muzzle energy of the .44 magnum, though he recommends a short barreled .44 magnum, the S&W mountain gun, for easy portability when out berry picking. This is a point, as it might be just as easy to carry a rifle as one of those big hunting pistols.

I'm wondering about the 45 ACP using hardball ammo? Isn't it similar to the .44 special?
 
Meek-
I'm not Art, but I can tell you that Garrett's 44 mag hard casts will get the job done....but that's not the issue, unless you're hunting. The question is "How Quickly?" in a bear attack situation.

Even the 454, under perfect conditions, is not likely to drop a bear in its tracks unless skeleton or nervous system is seriously impaired. Moving to defensive handgun calibers...there's virtually no chance of taking out the nervous system or skeleton, except by fluke.

Just how much time do we all think we have to incapacitate a charging Brown Bear before we become his last supper? I'd go for Pepper Spray and Prayer before a 9mm or 45 Auto. ;)
Rich
 
I will say that this is the first time I have heard anyone say that shotgun slugs do not offer enough penetration. You should check the box o truth:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/

The shotgun slug outpenetrates everything but the 45-70.

The comment about not having enough time to respond if the bear really wants you is dead on, in my opinion. You just have to hope he is not stalking you.

I would also choose the .357 with 200 grain hardcast loads - it is a good balance of weight, recoil control, and it will far, far, far outpenetrate the 9x19. The load will also be far more likely to be able to break a bone. There are quite a few people who carry the .357 in the Alaskan wilderness. 9x19 is a good antipersonell round, but bear? Not me, friend.

Just how many rounds do you think you will be able to get off before the bear gets you? If you must go with an autoloader, get 10mm, it is pretty close to .357 and there are hardcast loads available.
 
Don't forget, there's a big difference between reaction time on a formal practice at the range or course, and out in the woods. When you're on the range, you're know exactly what's going to happen; where to go, when you're going to go, what you're going to do, you're just standing around, waiting for your turn to shoot. In the woods, you won't know when the bear is coming, where he'll be coming from, or if he's even going to come, until the attack's already started. This will at least double or triple your reaction time. And with it's speed you're lucky to get any shot at all. Brown bears can weigh as much a 2500lbs. While the 9mm is a nice cartridge for defense against people, it was never designed to deal with a beast like that. So I'd want a cartridge with the power make that one shot count. If a handgun, a .454 casull at a minimum, or a .500 S&W magnum.
 
While I'm no hunter, I would think the issue at hand here is which bullet is the most likely to get a CNS or broken bone shot. Once you find a list of acceptable bullets, the next priority would most likely be choosing the one you could shoot at the highest rate of fire. The last priority would be finding one with the largest capacity of rounds.

Some would prefer a revolver, due to the opinion of most that they would likely get off no more than 4-5 shots.
 
The shotgun slug outpenetrates everything but the 45-70.
IIRC the only 45/70 revolver that is really designed to take the punishment is the Magnum Research BFR. But it is a single action, designed for hunting. I think that what we're looking for here is either a DAO semiautomatic without an external safety or a DA revolver.

The main point I see here is that when the bear jumps out you don't want to think about things, you just want to have a gun that you aim and pull the trigger. I don't know any modern shotgun made that has a 'pure panic' DAO/no external safety mode.
 
500 Linebaugh.
Hamilton Bowen conversion of Ruger Redhawk.
4' Barrel
Ashley Mid Dot Sights
Lanyard
One Ounce of lead at 1300 FPS; the ballistics of the original 45-70 rifle round.

Mean, ugly, unforgiving...and also completely recoiless and full auto when a Bear is at spit swapping distance.

YMMV....but I got mine! :D
Rich
 
Backyard Hunts?

I saw a video about a black bear invading a manhattan Suburb. According toi the video human food is like viagra for black bears, increasing the birthrate. It said California went from 5,000 Black Bears to around 35,000 now :eek:

Guess we might be able to purchase backyard hunting liscenses before long...lol

"A big black bear spent Tuesday morning in a tree above the courtyard of a condominium complex and as many as 400 people spent Tuesday morning watching it.

The show was over by 1:15 p.m., when an officer from the state Department of Environmental Conservation shot the bear, an estimated 300-pounder, with a tranquilizer dart, said Officer Paul Deoul of the Spring Valley police. It tumbled 25 feet to the ground but was unhurt, he said."

A big black bear spent Tuesday morning in a tree above the courtyard of a condominium complex and as many as 400 people spent Tuesday morning watching it.

The show was over by 1:15 p.m., when an officer from the state Department of Environmental Conservation shot the bear, an estimated 300-pounder, with a tranquilizer dart, said Officer Paul Deoul of the Spring Valley police. It tumbled 25 feet to the ground but was unhurt, he said.

http://www.1010wins.com/pages/43499.php?
 
Let's see. Brown bears differ in size.
Guy in this picture is 6 feet tall. These are russian bears.

60982714pWCPim_ph.jpg


You sound like a police officer, or mil, so carrying a full auto 9mm might be annoying enough, and quick enough, to turn a bear, but, it might also just piss them off. Hitting a bear with a half pound of lead, or jacketed bullets, in full auto, might deter the attack. I assume that's what that 33 round mag is for, a selective fire handgun?

A word about Penetration. I have a .510 Linebaugh Maximum, that shoots 525 grain bullets, at up to 1550 fps. Yes, it is the most powerful handgun in the world, S&W jive to the contrary. That generates about 2600 ft-lbs of energy, and, about 52 inches of bear penetration.

You can download that same bullet, to say, 1100 fps, and have it be MORE effective then at the higher velocity, with the same penetration. While no bears, this round has been used on bovines up to 1600 pound asian buffalo, with devastating results. These bullets hit with about the same effect on cape buffalo, etc. as a 375 H&H rifle.

That said, in our area, two monster bears, read 12-1400 pounds, both took 11 rounds of 375 H&H, before going down.

S&W guys are using a 700 grain bullet, but, stabilizing it can be a problem:
700%20gr%20-%203-s.jpg


http://i45.invalid-sanitized.localhost/albums/f99/Socrates28/Familyportrait3.jpg

Familyportrait3.jpg

.510 Maximum, target grade accuracy .475 Linebaugh, done on FA 83 by Jack Huntington., 45/454 Seville done by Linebaugh/Huntington, 45 Supers, and 357 snubby.
I'd carry one of the smaller guns to stuff in the bears mouth, after the 9mm didn't work. OH, my smallest gun
has ballistics equal to, or superior to your 9mm, and, I think that's just a stop the pain gun after the bear gets to me, or, at least disrupt his dinner with a little lead in the teeth.

My point simply is that your idea of a 'deep penetrating bullet' used against humans, becomes a shallow penetrating bullet, or no penetration, on a large brown bear. I've never heard
of a 9mm bullet coming even close to these guns in penetration tests, and, they can certainly be turned by a large browns bones.
http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

If you look at the above tests, the closest you come to 9mm is .38 special, with 8" of paper penetration. Giving
it a big boost in speed, figure maybe, it will go 16" in newspaper, and bone. The .500's give you about 4 FEET, or 48-52" inches, with hard cast bullets, or solids. The .475's are no joke, and, the 44 or 45's with 325-360 grain flat nosed bullets will go 38" inches of cape buffalo. Observed hits on bovine indicate the big bullets are REALLY noticed, and take affect, and may turn, and get the animals attention.

I hope your gun goes full auto.

S
PS
Another alternative is a Ruger #1, in 510 Wells. That's a 6 pound rifle, with a blown out weatherby 460 case, to 510.
It will recoil enough to knock you out of the bears path, and, if you hit the bear, it's going to knock him, and you, down, at the same time. Chances are, he's going to get right back up, but, at least you'll have time to aim, perhaps reload, and hit him again. My point is, in a bear charge, you need a rifle that will hit the bear hard enough to knock him down, so you can place your second shot, accurately. A double rifle, starting in 450 N2 is the starting point, and, the 458 Lott is the most economical
stopping rifle going. People also hotrod .458 winmags, and, with 500 grain bullets, at 2150 fps, they are starting
stoppers. Shotguns just don't have the penetration, or energy, to really knock down a bear.

PPS
IIRC, the 9mm that broke the 'bear's' leg, was on a cub brown bear.
 
Handgun for Mr. Bear?

Bigger is Better and avoidance is even better yet.

Its salmon fishing season here on the Yukon, the fish racks have salmon drying and the smoke houses are are mostly full of smoked fish. Reading all these threads started me thinking about how I deal with bears.

I live, work and play surounded by bears, big ones, little ones, black ones and brown ones. There is a zillion square miles of country for bears to roam around in and they go where-ever they want to, like through and around our village especially now. No bears yet but, when they are seen somebody usually makes an anouncement on the VHF radio to warn parents to keep track of the children. We keep track of where and when, if its just passing through or raiding someones smoke house. We know about where it is.

Para bellum , if you're going for a walk in the woods find out if any one has seen it and go in the opposite direction. If it, your picture showed momma and baby bear (definately stay away:eek: ), is hanging around a certain area most likely because of a food source. Don't go there.:rolleyes:

The Obvious,

Now, if you are walking in the woods;:)
Make noise, anounce your pressence give Mr. Bear a chance to get off the trail. Use your senses look for signs/tracks,old or new. Take a guess at how old, you'll be close. Bears stink (!) like a wet dog. I smelled one over a quarter mile away. They like to root under logs, they sound like a pig rooting and snuffling. Baby bears sound like a goat bleating or a baby crying, if you hear that turn around and leave:eek: . Bears have poor eye sight, make it notice you, don't startle it thats when they may attack or run away, usually they run away, usually.

Avoidance! Hope this helps
 
While I'm no hunter, I would think the issue at hand here is which bullet is the most likely to get a CNS or broken bone shot. Once you find a list of acceptable bullets, the next priority would most likely be choosing the one you could shoot at the highest rate of fire. The last priority would be finding one with the largest capacity of rounds.

Some would prefer a revolver, due to the opinion of most that they would likely get off no more than 4-5 shots.

That's exactly what I meant.
Thank you all for your time an thought.
Recently that specific bear I am thinking about has entered several villages and was seen by a large number of ordinary citizens in a densely populated area. Authorities now allowed shooting that bear. I don't think he will be an easy target...
 
A Guide here in the US told me he thought a short barreled 357 mag was the best backup for black bear. He said your obvective should be to pull the trigger as fast as you can and put as many rounds as possible into the bear. He also recommended using the largest cast bullet you could handle in 357 and to not use something that was too much for you.

Welcome to the the Forum moose fat. What do you do that allows you to work, live and play around all of those bears?:eek:
 
Ross Seyfried killed a buffalo with a gun identical to my .45 Seville. He used a 345 grain Kieth style bullet, at 1550 fps, in .45. The buffalo wasn't real impressed. It charged from 25 yards, taking 6 shots, and, dieing at a range of 2 feet. I figure cape buffalo, and a large brown bear to be real close as far as speed, and toughness. Ross was one of the best shooters on the planet at the time, and the buffalo still almost got him.

Why anyone would use a gun lesser then that is beyond me.
Why anyone would not take advantage of the .475's, and .500
's, and their stopping bullets, for a brown or buffalo, is also beyond me.


S
 
Jurka and family?

Wow, are these the problem bears? Bruno was shot this a.m., I just read on an internet home page.

So Momma, three baby bears and big brother are still cruising around.

I think 9mm is too small. But, that is what you got. You can shoot lots and fast. What has to happen, is to stop the attack. Operative idea, stopping the attack. A charging bear will be comming at you, head, shoulders,a little bit of back and a little bit of the chest. Shoot dead in the middle of that sight picture. Don't stop shooting untill the attack is stopped.

What I carry when my family and I are out on the tundra berry picking, or swimming in the river is my .44mag S&W Mountain Gun and an 870 Rem. w/18"riffled slug barrel, full of slugs.

I practice and try to be prepared. Walking in the woods, up in alpine forrests or on the tundra is still safer than walking down some city streets.:)
 
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