Handgun for brown-bear defense any real experience?

Maybe I have no finesse, but I do not have a death wish either.
I remember reading an article by the founder of Magnaport (I believe his name is Larry Kelly, although I cannot remember right now). In that article, he shot a brown bear at point blank range with a 44 Mag loaded with hard cast bullets when it stuck its head into a cabin with him and his guide. Six shots fired, six hits in the chest and head, the bear turned and walked away like it didn't care. The guide warmed up his 375 H&H, put 3 rounds into the bear and dropped it, primarily because he was required by law to pursue and dispatch any wounded bears. He then proceeded to tell the hunter to never shoot again at an animal unless he told him to. When they skinned out the animal, the rounds had not made it to a vital area, even though they were fired directly into the animal and supposedly would have had full muzzle energy.
So, would I try it with a 9mm? No, not even as a last resort. I would never be in bear country with a 9mm, no matter what type of bullets it was loaded with. The chance of hitting a charging brown bear in the eye socket or directly in the parietal lobe in order to drop it with a 9mm is remote at best. They charge at 35 mph (that's 60 km/h for those on the metric system), they are tough, they usually charge from close range, and they don't tell you when they are going to charge.
No thanks, no 9mm for me! But if you feel like becoming bear scat, you go right ahead!
 
You obviously intend to carry the 9mm and want someone to tell you that the 100 gr load will stop a bear. No one here in the States is that foolish. Take your 9mm and head out on your hikes. Good luck to you.
Thanks :-)
The think is that there is a particular bear right now coming very close to human settlement in an anyhow densely polulated area. It's not about long hikes in "bear country". It's about taking a little walk outside...

And don't get me wrong, I don't wanna becom bear poop.

Can you please explain what is 'not to beleive' in a shotgun against a bear????????
yes. Because a slug doesn't penetrate hard structures like bear's skulls etc. It's the old stroy of force/diameter. I'd rather use 000 Steel-Buck on a bear's skull.

Obvioulsy you have your mind set on a 9mm, which people argue if its effective enough against HUMANS. not to mention a bear.

another side note that you may or may not care about hearing is that 9mm would be laughed at for killing a HOG, and will bounce off its skull. we are talking hunting here not walk up to a caged hog and shoot it.
I appreaciate your time and thought, but you don't see my point. I would bet on deep and slim wholes in the bear and lots of them. 33 round is only 6-8 sec (including draw), so there is a chance...

hang out in the hog forums(texasboars.com) and you will find talk of rifle bullets/.45acp bouncing off hogs skulls.
Sorry, but against hard structures the .45 APC is a ballistically inferior gun. I'd prefer a .22 over a .45 ACP even if the task was to penetrate a human skull. Not to mention "penetrators" like 7,62x25 tokarev or .357 sig with FMJ or even better penetrating ammo.

its all about the angle of the shot.
IMHO it's all about the speed and width of the bullet.

why would you load yourself down with a huge 30 something magazine on it?
because it's very easy to carry in a yaqui-style holster. And much easier than a .338 rifle etc. And what I don't believe is one-shot-stops. Not with dogs, hogs, humans and surely not with bears.

You wont be able to get off 5 shots!
last timing: drawing behind a barricade, moving around, assessing 3 different targets at 7-10yds and putting 2 hits on each target including draw: 2,19 sec.
So I think, I'd have a chance of shooting at it repeatedly as long as I am alive and able to move.

You asked for advice, myself and others gave it, and now you are defending your little 9mm.
are my little 9mms prosecuted yet?

this is like asking if a .22lr is okay for stopping a charging elephant....sure go ahead. i hope we catch some video of it!
did you read the story by the bear attack stopped by one little 9x19mm bullet that crashed it's shoulder-bones? Did you ever ask yourself why no army in the world uses and handgun-bullets wider than 9mm? Expansion an cavity etc won't help against a bear, too big a beast. All you can do is:
- destroy the bear's mechanical ability to continue by crushing bones, or
- destroy the bear's neurological ability to continue the attack.
And all that helps you there is: penetration.
 
"I'd prefer a .22 over a .45 ACP even if the task was to penetrate a human skull."

Now that my friend is just plain funny. I'm personally not at all into caliber arguments, 40, 45, 9, whatever you want for personal defense. Personally I wish the 10mm had matured and there were good and ruged platforms for it plentiful in the main stream but then that is another story.

However questioning the ability for 45 to penetrate human skulls is just shows a lack of apreciation for the realities of life, but maybe that is what the topic of this thread (as all bear defense threads ultimatly reach) has become.

Parabellum your points about shot placement and penetration are well taken however you are over optimistic in your outlook. If the question is is a 9mm better than nothing then the anser would be yeah, I'd rather have the 9mm. If the question is what would be considered adequate the 9mm is not on the list, not even the same ball park and you can chose to listen to more learned and experinced shooters / hunters as to why or you can presist in your belife however it will not change reality.

Take a look around http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp and see what goes in to serious large animal stopping cartriges and then think about if you really feel any 9mm loaded with any bullet is up to the task. .
 
Just some quick numbers:
Time to draw and fire 4 shots= 2.19 seconds
Reaction time= approximately .1 seconds?
Total time to react and fire 4 shots at a STATIONARY target= 2.29 sconds

Bears sprint at 35 mph (60 km/h)= 51 fps (15.5 m/s)
Distance covered by the bear in the amount of time required to draw and fire= 35.5 m (118 ft)

Make the first shot count! Good luck!
 
Scorch

I think under those circustances you are pretty lucky if you can get off a round under cool fire, let alone anything that will stop it with a good shot.

But if you had the ability to be able to put something between you and the bear, I believe you have a better chance in close with a 9mm shooting rapid fire into the face of the bear.

My thoughts;) You would have to have the guts and determination of a true hunter and killer to be able to do this I believe. In this scenario you are as they say toast "scorched".

I would not go hunting bear with a hand gun unless you had a good man with a 45-70 with some hot loads, in a lever and nerves of steel, and can hit the target. I have met one man like that.

HQ :cool:
 
My thoughts You would have to have the guts and determination of a true hunter and killer to be able to do this I believe. In this scenario you are as they say toast "scorched".
we will hopefully never find out. But if it were to choose between being a hunter and a killer or becoming bear poop, I'd rather go for the former.

I would not go hunting bear with a hand gun unless you had a good man with a 45-70 with some hot loads, in a lever and nerves of steel, and can hit the target. I have met one man like that.
I would never go hunting bear from anywhere the bear could reach me. And if I were hunting for a bear I'd bring the most powerful gun I could carry.

Just some quick numbers:
Time to draw and fire 4 shots= 2.19 seconds
Reaction time= approximately .1 seconds?
Total time to react and fire 4 shots at a STATIONARY target= 2.29 seconds

Bears sprint at 35 mph (60 km/h)= 51 fps (15.5 m/s)
Distance covered by the bear in the amount of time required to draw and fire= 35.5 m (118 ft)

Make the first shot count! Good luck!
Thanks for the wish. Now for the numbers. If you read my post again you will see, that I wrote about 6 (six) shots. It's about 1,25 sec to react and move on step aside of the barricade and 0,94 for the six (6) shots onto three (3) targets, that's two (2) shots each.

Aaaanyway: I am not advocating brown-bear-hunting with a 9x19mm handgun. I might be weird but I'm not that stupid. But: The more I listen, research and think about it, the more I find that for cqb-defense against a brown bear, one of my carry 9x19mms with a large magazine (19-33rds) and the extreme penetrating (and bone-crushing) ammo posted above would be as "ideal" as a gun could be in "not so ideal" situations like that one.

Did you guys realize that the only real-life experience I could get my hands on actually was an incident in which a "little 9mm" stopped the bear attack by breaking the bear's shoulder?

and Harley Quinn, I appreciate your company!
 
Thanks Para Bellum

We who enjoy the little 9 mm need back up.:D

Most topics will say they over penetrate, can't do the job. I own a Glock 17L, that is a 6" it helps a little for the sighting and fps. I like the lighter trigger pull also.

Head shots are the way to go these days, so practice is the answer. If they penetrate then they get to the vitals, if it is an ice pick or a 9mm in the heart it still does the job, same way in the eye or ear.

They go through clothing, light or heavy they are well supplied with bullets on the market for many applications, there are usually many in the magazine for back up. The recoil is very manageable. That means 2nd and 3rd and 4th shots are more on target.

If you are shooting and going for all the above I believe it is hard to find a better round, must be why they are the number one in the world for the military of most countries.:D

Germans are very good when it comes to the design of Martial ways.

HQ
 
I can't offer any first hand experiences with brown bears or bears of any color, for that matter, but friends have had some encounters.

First of all, this is hardly a new subject and people have been discussing the subject for a long, long time. It would be hard to come up with something new at this point. One interesting thing, however, is that some very experienced big game hunters in the past felt confident in recommending calibers, all revolvers, that would now be considered way too underpowered. Care to carry your .455 Webley as a back-up?

But there is more to the story.

Remember, this is essentially consideration of a back-up weapon, in this particular case, the 9mm. At one time the .38 ACP was considered the best choice (not the .380 ACP) but we have moved on from there. Different authorative sources will give different recommendations but handguns usually aren't listed. Either a 12-guage or a .44-magnum carbine, if you aren't hunting.

Another point that usually isn't mentioned is that this is something that happens at something like contact distance. It is worth adding that you don't mess with something that isn't bothering you.
 
Did you ever ask yourself why no army in the world uses and handgun-bullets wider than 9mm?

Semi-auto handgun calibers currently in military and police use are 9mm Parabellum, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. The latter two are preferred as they are somewhat more effective. Military ball (full metal jacket) handgun ammo is suitable for practice, but high efficiency expanding types are preferred for self defense.

Oh, and by the way, I carried a Baretta M9 (9mm) while on my first tour in Iraq and Afghanistan as a backup side arm. I didn't have to use mine against enemy combatants, but witnessed a situation where a guy did. He unloaded 5 shots center mass into the "bad guy" and the "bad guy" kept running. A quick 3 shot burst from an M4 finally brought the guy down before he could detonate (suicide bomber). We later found out that they guy was most likely hopped up on drugs because that was the only way they were getting them to blow themselves up. This was a guy and he couldn't be stopped with 5 shots into his chest (heart, lungs, etc..) with a 9mm, try that on a charging bear. My bet is it will only make him pissed off more. Good luck and try not to become bear poop otherwise you will wind up competing for the DARWIN AWARD with the guy in colorado protecting himself from the mt. lions with a BB gun (true story search the forum for the thread).
 
BlueTrain:
First of all, this is hardly a new subject and people have been discussing the subject for a long, long time. It would be hard to come up with something new at this point.
yes. but my approach with the 9x19mm and the FL-bullet (above, original-Post) is kinda new.

Another point that usually isn't mentioned is that this is something that happens at something like contact distance. It is worth adding that you don't mess with something that isn't bothering you.
Sure. I am not even a hunter and don't plan becoming one...
My carrying is job-related.

UniversalFrost
Oh, and by the way, I carried a Baretta M9 (9mm) while on my first tour in Iraq and Afghanistan as a backup side arm. I didn't have to use mine against enemy combatants, but witnessed a situation where a guy did. He unloaded 5 shots center mass into the "bad guy" and the "bad guy" kept running. A quick 3 shot burst from an M4 finally brought the guy down before he could detonate (suicide bomber). We later found out that they guy was most likely hopped up on drugs because that was the only way they were getting them to blow themselves up. This was a guy and he couldn't be stopped with 5 shots into his chest (heart, lungs, etc..) with a 9mm, try that on a charging bear.
maybe I didn't get it clear: CNS or Skeleton hits with the FL-ammo. Rapid fire.
COM-Hits "(heart, lungs, etc..)" stop nothing with no caliber. You stop with CNS hits and pelvic hits (men) and CNS/pelvic/shoudler hits (bear). COM-Hits "(heart, lungs, etc..)" kill (later) but don't neccessarily stop. It's like a Football-Tackle and the HIV-Virus. The former surely stops, the latter surely kills. I want a stop. If a bear or BG just can't keep on charging because his pevis is broken - that's fine with me. live and let live. What good is it to kill (COM heart, lungs, etc..) and be killed in return because our dying BG/bear has enough time to payback?
 
Lots of stories, to little time

The thing about stories is they are just that. You like the nine I like the nine.

I have seen many people shot, some lived and some died. But no one walked or moved real well when shot thru the bladder and into the pelvic area and the sacrum.
In training we were taught to shoot into that area and then into the chest.

Not the other way around. When I was A LEO our holsters were lower. When we drew we were coming up from a lower position, shooting at the pelvic area first and the and chest area second. Just the way we were taught. I still believe it 100%. We were bringing up the revolver and dropping at the knees, putting us on target for the pelvis area very quickly. This is in the day of 38 spl as a round.

No one will convince me any other way. If I don't have the target, of course I take what I can get. 9mm is a penetrating round it goes through bone pretty well.

I think under the conditions you are describing and the ammo that is avaliable over in Europe, it is the way to go. European ammo is better for the nine, guess that is because, that is where it stems from.

HQ
 
9x19mm ammo and tests

Harley Quinn
I fully agree with you and thank you for sharing your experience with us.

Just one more thing: The US makes one excellent round for the 9x19mm, the Federal EFMJ. It's the only US-made-round in my list of favourite 9x19mm rounds:
1. Fiocchi/Hirtenberger EMB 93gr (defense / police)
2. Federal EFMJ 124gr
3. Fiocchi/Hirtenberger/S&B FL 100gr (extreme penetration / police and BEAR!), see above

Some guys testes all three of them:
http://www.raoulwagner.com/tests2005.htm

stay safe and sound!
 
9 mm

Para Bellum

Thanks for sharing. The 9mm is still hanging in there. Puts a different light on the 40??? Interesting. :confused:

Considering the damage done and the shootability of the 9mm to get the 2nd, 3rd and 4th round off easier and quicker "back on to the target" (especially for people that don't have good grips) I can see why Departments still prefer them.

That 22 round is nasty, "stinger" I'd say.

Saved it all to my documents.:D

HQ
 
I see comments made about bone that are not good assumptions . All bone is not the same . For example , a deer's leg bone is seven times denser than a cows !!! ...Shots to the pelvis are a very viable way to put the BG down immediately ,it really works and is much better than a head shot which can be deflected easily. For animals the pelvic shot [actually the base of the spine] will paralyse the hind end immediately becasue of the network of nerves there .I recently saw a TV program where they shot a wounded cape buffalo there and the rear end collapsed preventing the animal from escaping.
 
Parabellum

Obviously your mind is set and since you are in europe I guess you should consider yourself luck to have any firearm and any ability to carry it for any defensive use however 9mm against a bear will never be a popular choice.

I also have to question some of your statements.

When discussing COM shots it is not always a mistake to believe that they can result in rapid incapacitation, in fact most trainers I have read note this as well since any size hole in the heart it's self or a great vessel will lead to bleed out in a few seconds. Obviously the less great the vessel the slower the process.

So far as shoulder and pelvic shots on a Bear, in close proximity with a 9mm I got to say lots of luck with that, if you can reach and incapacitate the CNS fine I give you that you can stop a bear. Hitting shoulder or pelvis with a 9mm is not going to do enough trauma to stop the bear, wound, maybe even paralize yeah, but I think that if you are really in a need to shoot situation i.e. you are in such close proximity to said bear, thining that the shoulder or pelvis shot is going to solve the problem you have is really really optimistic.
 
...and since you are in europe I guess you should consider yourself luck to have any firearm and any ability to carry it for any defensive use...
Europe is very diverse as are the US (think of NYC gun-laws :barf: ).
In many countries obtaining guns is not at all a problem. A carrying permit can also obtained withouth much trouble in many EU Countries...

When discussing COM shots it is not always a mistake to believe that they can result in rapid incapacitation, in fact most trainers I have read note this as well since any size hole in the heart it's self or a great vessel will lead to bleed out in a few seconds.
I read the same and COM is surely a good idea but a few seconds, say 15 for a heart shot is realistic. Count to 15, now.
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 - 12 - 13 - 14 - 15

Imagine what a shizoid-paranoic guy with a knife on speed at initially 25 feet could do in that few 15 seconds. And that's not even an unreal scenario. Happend to a friend of mine in his office.

That's why I started considering pelvic shots as a first shot. If you hit the pelis well, the threat drops. You might not even have to kill him once he is down with a broken pelvis. And that sounds very reasonable to me...

by the way, if I were actually looking or huntig for a bear, this would be the weapon of my choice, from a tree-stand at 500yds distance:

par66_768x547_1139489711.jpg


and if I had to move from that tree-stand while hunting for a bear, I'd choose this means of transportation:

pandur_3_768x542_1133961884.jpg


I know, some of you will say that you need a 60t M1-A1 tank and that little european 13,5t Pandur wouldn't do, but hey - we all have our preferences and I like a diverse world.
 
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The problem with a 'pelvis' shot...

The problem with a pelvis shot...is that the pelvis is not the charging end of the grizzly bear... Imagine one's computer screen as being the snarling face of a grizzly. Imagine it suddenly booming toward you bobbing a bit up and down from about 20 yards away at a speed of about 20 - 30 mph. It's not a good target and the bear's muscle-covered head is likely to deflect a bullet because there's an excellent chance the bullets are going to graze at an angle rather than hit strait on or through an eye... Once the bear is on top of you...can you count on that little semiauto 9mm not jamming? Can you count on not tapping the slide the wrong way?

When that ol' bear is on top of me...and I'm feeling his stinky breath...fogging up my eyeglasses...that's when I say a silent prayer, unholster my 454 RH REVOLVER and KABOOOOOOOM 1600lbs. of flash and muzzle energy into the ol'bear...and keep KABOOOOOOMING...until I'm either
a survivor on earth...or a survivor at the pearly gates... :D

Of course a 375 H&H would be better at stopping a charge...but if a bear is sitting on you...a scoped 375H&H or anything is too unwieldy. Best thing is a revolver with the biggest most powerful bullet you can fire... :D
 
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