Handgun for brown-bear defense any real experience?

P

Para Bellum

New member
Hi folks,

I live in a (European) Brown-Bear (ursus arctos) area. Recently we have some "problem-bears" which come too close to human settlement.
I carry 9x19mm Handguns 24/7. So I wonder what to bring when going to the woods.

I am especially interested in real experience from those who have hunted brown bear. In terms of ballistic performance I am convinced that especially with big game, penetration is the most important quality of a bullet. So, staying with 9x19mm and 33 Shots in one gun (Glock 9x19mm 33rds magazine) I would go for the Hirtenberger/Fiocci/S&B FL (SB31065) cartridge. It's law enforcement ammunition and an extreme penetrator:
100gr, small soft point, 428 m/s (1404ft/sec), 595joules (438ft/#).
sb31065-nd.jpg


I don't believe in any handgun to end a bear-encounter with only a few shots. So 20 shots with good placement and extreme penetrating ammo from a 9x19mm is what I would go for. I'd stick with the 9x19mm because I practice a lot and successfully compete with this caliber. Placement and speed should not be the problem with my 9x19mms. So what good should a 500-Revolver be with only 6 shots which I couldn't fire with the placement and in the time I'd fire 20 9x19mm FLs?

Or would the bear-experienced guys among us recommend another caliber? I expect that penetration is the only remedy against a brown bear, so I'd only go for
.357 Sig.
7,62x25 Tokarev
.357 Mag.
.44 Mag.
10mm Auto
.50 AE

with ammo like the Hirtenberger/Fiocchi FL the 9x19mm is one of the best penetrators of all...

so what do you think? What would you take to stay safe when she thinks you came to close to her kid?

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If the bear attacks it will happen very fast and she will kill you before you can pump enough rounds of 9mm into her to kill her !!! Try hard to find reality. ....BTW are you hunting JJ1, the Italian bear that wandered into Austria and Germany ?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Well, if that's an extreme penetrator, then it may be the best load for what you want. But mete is right, if a bear attacks, it will be VERY swift and unexpected. You'd be very lucky to get 2 or 3 rounds off before completely engaged in just being a rag doll, unable to shoot. More likely only 1 shot. Therefore, if you really think it's a possibility, I'd definitely invest in a bigger boomer. Something like a .44 magnum at a minimum. Maybe one of these?

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=44Tracker4SS&category=Revolver
 
For self defense against a bear I would opt for at least a M60 or a BAR.:)

Even a 12 ga pump with slugs would be more effective than a handgun.

Seriously: a .44 mag and up would slow a big bear down, he'd still get to you but probably chew on your leg with less enthuasiasm...:)

In autos a .45acp up to a .50AE would slow it down too.

good luck.
 
As far as handguns go, that Taurus 44Mag looks pretty damn good. But...

We've all heard the stories about big game being dropped by all different kinds. A bear attack situation would seem to be have so many variables that just having a large caliber handgun, or even rifle, is just a small step towards protection. I think you would want to learn as much as possible about the animal, and train significantly with your chosen weopon specifically for an incident. Also, learning to avoid a bear attack should be number one on your list.
 
Google bear attack.

4 guys fishing in Alaska would take turn with a shotgun watching for bear.The bear did come and suprised the guy with the shotgun.He dropped the shotgun and jumped in the water.:rolleyes:

2 guys with FMJ 9mm pistols unloaded 17 rounds into the bear and killed it.Autopsy showed the first bullet broke the front leg of the bear slowing it's attack.

Anything can happen.But your best bet is the biggest gun you can handle.AFTER you climb a tree or wedge yourself into a small pocket of rocks or logs.Wild animals will always run first and so should humans.
 
so the 9x19mm FMJ or FL (SP) actually is exactly right! ;-)

BTW are you hunting JJ1, the Italian bear that wandered into Austria and Germany ??
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sure. :)

seriously: I am not hunting and not keen on buying a generally useless type of extra gun just because we have brown bear(s!) in our woods.

I just wonder what I should take with me if I (and maybe my family) go into the woods as we sometimes do. I also read the story about the bear attack stopped by several 9x19mm FMJ. That's what I meant. The soft nose bullet I posted above penetrates even (much) more than normal 9x19mm FMJ and it's very hot. The likelihood that one really runs into a bear here is remote. But, since I carry 24/7, I don't want to carry the worst if there is a chance of a bear encounter. The worst - so I imagine - would be a ultrafast expanding bullet that wouldn't even reach a bear's vitals...

but, the question was: Do any of you guys actually know what to look for against a bear?

...it was almost answered by that 9x19mm breaking the bear's shoulder story. That's what I was looking for. Proof for my assumption that the 9x19mm with non-expanding and harshly penetrating ammo is capable of destroying what a bear needs to condtinue...

PS: I've also seen in the only authoritative source of real ballistic information, CSI (episode: "unbearable"), that you can drop a kodiak with one shot from a 6" .357 revolver :D
 
honestly the 9mm is good to make YOU feel better, but in reality i would be willing to bet it wouldnt do anything in the way of stopping a bear.

My advice.

18" barrel, 12 gauge pump, 7or8 shot loaded with DIXIE SLUGS the 1400fps ones.
 
Bring a dog with you to distract the bear and don't try to save the dog, it's expendable. Penetration is the most important consideration.Head shots are not good since it's too easy for the bullet to be deflected.
 
After conferring with friends in Alaska and Montana who hunt bears, we were all in agreement. If you plan on the 9mm, if an attack happens, put the gun up to your head and fire. You will be mauled long before you stop the bear with the 9mm. The bear will be charging towards you leaving the head and chest as the largest target. The 9mm won't penetrate the head and if you are able to get a couple of rounds in the chest, chances are you won't live long enough to see if the 9mm had any effect.

This is coming from people that won't use anything smaller than a 375 H&H mag. They have seen bears hit with those cartridges, often times multiple hits, and they still travel a hundred yards before expiring.

Try the pepper spray to try to deter the bear. Don't tick him off by hitting him with the 9mm.
 
Could extremely penetrating 9x19mm bullets penetrate a bear's skull?

This is coming from people that won't use anything smaller than a 375 H&H mag. They have seen bears hit with those cartridges, often times multiple hits, and they still travel a hundred yards before expiring.
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very encouraging. That at least gives the comfort that it doesn't matter what handgung you use...
But, why shouldn't a 9x19mm with extreme penetrating ammo be able to penetrate a bear's skull? I'll do some research on that...

and I found this here: http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?postid=6278746
i beg to differ on the penetration of the 147 grain load. a while back i read about a test where they shot steers in the forehead with differnt loads. all the heavy fmj loads gave complete penetration. now a steer skull isn't a bears but if a 147 can go in the front and out the back of a 1000 pound steer it can at least get to the brain of a bear.

in the june 2003 issue of rifle's handloader magzine. phil shoemaker a guide with 20 years worth of experience gave his daughter a smith model 65 357 mag. for bear protection. he claimed to have killed a bear with this gun and 180 grain bullets, hit behind the head and into the neck breaking the spine then giving 18 inchs of penetration.

he even said "i would fell more secure with a double action .22 mag than a single action .454 because of the little gun's ability for rabid hits and superb penetration"
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That's pretty much what I think. IMHO at close range only a CNS hit or crushing a bone that's crucial for movement (shoulder, hip) could hepl against a bear. So all you can seriously ask for is deeeeep penetration. Forget cavity and stuff. That animal is too big to be stopped by a cavity you could inflict. So: deeeeep penetration (FMJ or better pointed bullets in 9x19, .357 Mag or Sig, 7,62 Tokarev, .22) capacity (the same) and controlability (the same).

So all I'll do is stick a 33 shot magazine with extremely penetrating ammo into my 9x19mm glocks when I hit the woods in bear regions. What more effective could I do? I won't go hiking with an assault rife and I don't believe in shotguns against bear...
 
Do you really want to believe the words from somebody who says he would rather use a double action 22 mag instead of a single action 454 for bear?

You obviously intend to carry the 9mm and want someone to tell you that the 100 gr load will stop a bear. No one here in the States is that foolish. Take your 9mm and head out on your hikes. Good luck to you.
 
Gotta take into consideration the bear's physiology...

The bear has a low breathing rate and a heart that's beating maybe 25 beats per minute... The bear has a lot of oxygen-rich blood and muscle... and when you shoot him - even if it's in a vital organ or artery/vein - that bear might die instantly...but it might live 5 minutes,15 minutes, or an hour...before he/she dies... I've read of bears taking a shotgun slug to the heart and still living for quite few minutes... If you figure that a bear can charge at about 30mph and can be filled with adrenaline... you don't want to be trying to rely on a 22mag or a 9mm - even if you can get off multi-shots.
I have a 454/45 , but I'm not exposed to much serious bear country. I do occassionaly encounter ferral dogs - but I try to avoid them and don't go looking for them. A 454/45 is a 'bug' for bears; it's not meant to be something you pull out because a bear is 50 yards away. It's meant to be something you pull out if in the rare event a bear surprises you and is either in your tent or right on top of you...because then a pistol can be used whereas a rifle is too unwieldy or out of reach. A 454 from my little RH can deliver at the muzzle a huge blast(it might actually distract a bear) and about 1800 lbs. of energey - so theoretically if you can deliver 3 shots from a 454 at the muzzle - the bear is going to be hit with a combined total of about 5000lbs.of energy. That might be more than enough! However, you'll be lucky to get off one shot. Admittedly , it's a rare event. The best thing - is to know your wildlife and focus on avoiding such encounters...BUT I'd rather have my little snubbie 454 THAN a scoped 375H&H in the event a bear was on top of me... :cool:
 
i beg to differ on the penetration of the 147 grain load. a while back i read about a test where they shot steers in the forehead with differnt loads. all the heavy fmj loads gave complete penetration. now a steer skull isn't a bears but if a 147 can go in the front and out the back of a 1000 pound steer it can at least get to the brain of a bear.
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Parabellem.... Angle, angle, angle! It's easy to penetrate a thick skull at a right angle, but if a bear is coming at you, the sloping front of the skull will be less than 45 degrees - bad bad mojo there - even a big boomer like a .44 mag may actually ricochet off the forehead, depending on exact angle and load used. A 9mm is better than nothing, but pepper spray would be better than a 9mm, IMO -and probably better than even a .454 casull for accomplishing the desired result (bear go bye bye quickly). If you do shoot with a 9mm, however, I'd go for the hip bones (pelvis - to slow it down) or the heart/lungs or both, because of the problems with angles/penetration of the skull, espec. under highly stressed conditions. Also, if you do insist on using the 9mm for that contingency, I'd try to find a 147 grain load of the same hard-alloy construction of that 100 grainer. Heavier is always better when serious penetration is needed. Now that 100 grain load may in fact penetrate better than a JHP expanding 147 grainer, but it won't more than a hardcast lead or ball ammo 147. In fact, that ammo there is described as a "soft point" which if true, will mean that it's horribly poorly suited for what you want (penetration).

Look to this company to sell you some hardcast 147s and roll your own:

http://northeastbullet.com/shop.htm

look at #8 on that page.
 
I don't believe in shotguns against bear...
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you do realize there is a saying that goes something like

"Use your handgun to fight your way back to your rifle (shotgun) that you should have never put down in the first place" ...it has a lot of truth to it.

A shotgun slug, hardened, is what you need, or a BIG rifle.

Can you please explain what is 'not to beleive' in a shotgun against a bear????????




Obvioulsy you have your mind set on a 9mm, which people argue if its effective enough against HUMANS. not to mention a bear.

another side note that you may or may not care about hearing is that 9mm would be laughed at for killing a HOG, and will bounce off its skull. we are talking hunting here not walk up to a caged hog and shoot it.

hang out in the hog forums(texasboars.com) and you will find talk of rifle bullets/.45acp bouncing off hogs skulls.

its all about the angle of the shot.

why would you load yourself down with a huge 30 something magazine on it?

You wont be able to get off 5 shots!

You asked for advice, myself and others gave it, and now you are defending your little 9mm.

this is like asking if a .22lr is okay for stopping a charging elephant....sure go ahead. i hope we catch some video of it!
 
No experience with either Brown Bears, Grizzlys or big bears in general. So why am I posting? I just love these kinds of threads. I can only relate my own expereince behind a camera on an irritated black bear (probably 300 pounds) ..... scared me when it charged. It was a fake charge, but it certainly taught me a lesson about bears as it covered the 40 of the 50 yds or so in a second or two at most. I forgot to wear my brown pants that day!

I would have had the gun already drawn to have made even a half-hearted attempt at defense. In this case, I could have, but I was intent on taking pictures. If I'm in bear country and I'm worried about such things, I would pack my 41 mag. I doubt that I would want to lug around a rifle or shotgun unless I'm hunting. The 41mag would mostly make me feel better. The same would apply to a 9mm. You would have to be very cool and calm in the face of danger to get off more than a couple effective aimed shots at a charging bear no matter if it was 200 lbs or 1000 lbs.

As I recall, most people in Alaska suggest a minimum of 300 Weatherby mag or 338 for large bears. Bears are notoriously tough and even after being hit in the chest, they run for a good ways. So, if the bear is intent on killing you, you probably are dead unless you are lucky and make a spine or head shot no matter what rifle or handgun you might have.
 
Mete ---

That has got to be the funniest darn thing that I have read in a long time.

Maybe your dog will be intrested in taking on a bear, and well maybe he or she will not in which case dogs run a heck of a lot faster than people and it will be you who are sacraficed to the bear. Even if you have a really well trained protection dog it's a crap shoot as to how it goes as I know of no good training protocol for bear defense, even people who run bears with dogs usually use more than one.

Frankly the best thing you can have for early waring is probibly a dog as they make a lot of noise and are very attuned to the envoirment, but as a defense it's probibly not gona buy you a whole lot.
 
I think the 9mm is good

Very well proven round and with 17 in the mag it is the way to go. They are proven penetraters and are going to get the job done. Mete is correct.

HQ:cool:
 
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