Hammer fired polymer guns, what's out there?

[corneileous]

Right, but the real answer there is not allow garments into your trigger guard. That's what holsters are for. Are other designs more tolerant of this? Yeah I can agree with that. But if something manages to exert 5.5 lb on the face of the trigger (far more than a few ounces) then I feel the issue is more shooter error.

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No doubt about it, it all falls down to shooter error but no amount of training will keep us from being human. That’s why all my guns at hammer-fired and why I kinda sorta gave my one and only striker-fired gun to my mom, because I didn’t like feeling like I had to rely on the slide-mounted safety to make it safer. That’s why I shifted from a Ruger LC9S to a Springfield XDE.


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[TheGunGeek]

What other hammer fired polymer guns are out there?

The Beretta PX4 full and compact sizes are highly unappreciated DA/SA pistols. Ernest Langdon also offers a highly tweeked version.

I only use hammer fired DA/SA actions.

 

[TunnelRat]

No doubt about it, it all falls down to shooter error but no amount of training will keep us from being human. That’s why all my guns at hammer-fired and why I kinda sorta gave my one and only striker-fired gun to my mom, because I didn’t like feeling like I had to rely on the slide-mounted safety to make it safer. That’s why I shifted from a Ruger LC9S to a Springfield XDE.


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No offense, but if you follow that logic through (that we're all likely to fail regardless of training) then with the rate of NDs in general compared to the likelihood of needing a firearm to defend yourself you wouldn't own or carry a firearm in the first place.

I'm well aware we're all human. I've had a ND. It was with a S&W 5903, a pistol with a DA pull, a manual safety, and even a magazine disconnect. How did it happen? I pressed a trigger on what I thought was a chamber with a snap cap. It wasn't. The pistol couldn't stop me from being negligent. My argument is clearing the holster is important regardless of trigger weight and that true garment caused NDs are less likely than people credit.

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[DMK]

... regardless of the trigger system I am clearing my holster before I reholster. Assuming I did that...

Assuming we always did everything right, we wouldn't need all 4 rules of gun safety. Just one or two of those rules would suffice.

While I get the idea, regardless of the trigger system I am clearing my holster before I reholster. Assuming I did that, how is the firearm discharging itself? I get the concept of redundancy, I do, but I've holstered idk how many times now. There hasn't been a time where something magically appeared in my holster that allowed me to both holster the pistol normally (didn't get stuck in the holster and prevent the firearm from seating) and managed to get in my trigger guard to the point where it could apply 5.5-6 lb of pressure to discharge the pistol.

I've never had an issue either. However nonetheless, it is a possibility and there are examples of proficient shooters having NDs due to something getting in the trigger guard.

I'm not going to stop holstering all my striker fired guns because of it, but I do feel better when I'm holstering a hammer fired gun.

It seems silly to argue about it because it's up to the end user as to what they personally feel comfortable with. Nobody is wrong here.

 

[TunnelRat]

Assuming we always did everything right, we wouldn't need all 4 rules of gun safety. Just one or two of those rules would suffice.

I've never had an issue either. However nonetheless, it is a possibility and there are examples of proficient shooters having NDs due to something getting in the trigger guard.

I'm not going to stop holstering all my striker fired guns because of it, but I do feel better when I'm holstering a hammer fired gun.

I get the concept of layered security. It's literally part of my job. But we already have layered security, such as the 4 laws. You can always add more layers. But at some point I question what is gained by those layers. Absolutely people have had NDs. What percentage of those that carry do have NDs? When you evaluate risk you evaluate the potential consequences and the probability of the event occuring. An ND can have a very negative consequence (I know from experience) so it should be weighted as such. But of NDs how many are from triggers snagging when being holstered? At what level have we properly addressed the risk? Should we go to empty chamber carry and be even safer? My guess is many here would balk at that, and I would too, but where people draw the line isn't a matter of absolute correctness.

And since this is a forum, I simply voice that question. As always, people do what they think is best for themselves and I wouldn't want them to do otherwise.

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[FrankenMauser]

Wasn't the Beretta 90two polymer framed? Or was it a polymer/steel assembly?

Otherwise, everything I can think of is already in the list.

 

[corneileous]

No offense, but if you follow that logic through (that we're all likely to fail regardless of training) then with the rate of NDs in general compared to the likelihood of needing a firearm to defend yourself you wouldn't own or carry a firearm in the first place.

I'm well aware we're all human. I've had a ND. It was with a S&W 5903, a pistol with a DA pull, a manual safety, and even a magazine disconnect. How did it happen? I pressed a trigger on what I thought was a chamber with a snap cap. It wasn't. The pistol couldn't stop me from being negligent. My argument is clearing the holster is important regardless of trigger weight and that true garment caused NDs are less likely than people credit.

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I never said making sure your holster was always clear wasn’t important. The fact still remains that holstering a DA/SA gun isn’t as likely for human error as your typical Glock or equivalent.

But what are you trying to say, that if we can’t rely completely on training to keep us 100% safe from having a ND, that we should carry at all? I hope that’s not what you’re saying but if it is, the term “glock leg“ I think was primarily originated from highly-trained enforcement. Accidents are gonna happen.

But to counter your “point”, pulling the trigger on a live round which you thought was a snap cap, is most certainly not no where near close to the same thing as discharging a pistol while shoving it in a holster.

The average stock DA trigger pull of your typical DA/SA hammer-fired pistol is much longer and weighs at least twice as much as your typical striker-fired pistol. That alone makes it safer and a little bit less-likely to have an oops moment. The ability to ride the hammer with your thumb adds to it.


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[DMK]

It's also a comfort issue. How many people won't carry AIWB because they are extremely uncomfortable with it?

Guys it's not worth arguing over.

 

[DMK]

Wasn't the Beretta 90two polymer framed? Or was it a polymer/steel assembly?

That's an interesting gun I never looked at before. I always thought folks were just saying Beretta 92 is some stupid way.

Is that a full polymer frame or just sections of it? From what I'm reading it's a polymer and alloy frame.

 

[corneileous]

It's also a comfort issue. How many people won't carry AIWB because they are extremely uncomfortable with it?

I would if it didn’t seem to be so uncomfortable for someone who sits all day. Lol.

Guys it's not worth arguing over.

And you’d be right but, I still feel like the only way to make a typical Glock-like pistol safe is to put a safety on it but, I don’t like the idea of that kind of safety to make a gun safe from shooting yourself or from putting a hole in the floor but that’s just me.

I haven’t trained a whole lot with it, but every day that I go to the range and I practice that first double-action shot, I get better and better at it with practice to were I don’t feel like I have to resort to manually cocking the hammer back before I shoot.


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[TunnelRat]

It's also a comfort issue. How many people won't carry AIWB because they are extremely uncomfortable with it?



Guys it's not worth arguing over.

I don't see changing trigger system as a solution to that problem, but that's me personally. I don't carry appendix regularly. I recognize it has advantages as I've tried it both on a timer and in just carrying around and those aren't trades I want to make, but again YMMV. I have no issue with someone carrying appendix (I don't have issue with much of what someone else does with a firearm unless I think it impacts my safety).

I don't see this as arguing. I see this as discussing. To me arguing is trying to prove one person or the other is "right". There's too much about carrying a firearm that comes down to personal decision for me to believe in universal rights and wrongs, absent certain safety norms. I'm simply sharing my thoughts on the topic. If the topic is simply a list of all hammer fired pistols, I think we've mostly got that covered at this point. But I do think there are reasons why hammer fired pistols are still a thing and discussing those reasons is interesting to me.

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[TunnelRat]

I never said making sure your holster was always clear wasn’t important. The fact still remains that holstering a DA/SA gun isn’t as likely for human error as your typical Glock or equivalent.

But what are you trying to say, that if we can’t rely completely on training to keep us 100% safe from having a ND, that we should carry at all? I hope that’s not what you’re saying but if it is, the term “glock leg“ I think was primarily originated from highly-trained enforcement. Accidents are gonna happen.

But to counter your “point”, pulling the trigger on a live round which you thought was a snap cap, is most certainly not no where near close to the same thing as discharging a pistol while shoving it in a holster.

The average stock DA trigger pull of your typical DA/SA hammer-fired pistol is much longer and weighs at least twice as much as your typical striker-fired pistol. That alone makes it safer and a little bit less-likely to have an oops moment. The ability to ride the hammer with your thumb adds to it.


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What I'm saying is that if the argument is we are fallible and should make all decisions based on our fallibility then I question whether or not we should carry in the first place. At some level we all rely on our training to offset our own potential for failure. I can assure you that people shot themselves and others through negligence long before Glock came onto the market. Finding the difference in rates when information is so much more readily accessible now than before isn't super easy.

I've trained with law enforcement. The notion that all of them are highly trained is as false as the notion that all civilians are not trained (and I can give the names of members of law enforcement that will agree with that).

My point was that the mechanical object couldn't stop my own lack of awareness. That was my point. Yes there are different causes for a ND, but the main route in all of them is negligence. Different forms of negligence sure, but negligence nonetheless.

Some of the triggers of DA pistols are twice as heavy. Some of them aren't, and many aren't after all of the mods that people like to do on DA triggers to make them easier to shoot (entire companies devoted to that effort). Again the argument comes down to a situation where 5-6 lb. isn't enough to stop the firearm from discharging but 10 lb. is. My experience and my intuition is that isn't very common. My guess is it's even possible for someone holstering a DA pistol to have an ND in the process. How much less likely than say a Glock I don't know.

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[corneileous]

What I'm saying is that if the argument is we are fallible and should make all decisions based on our fallibility then I question whether or not we should carry in the first place. At some level we all rely on our training to offset our own potential for failure. I can assure you that people shot themselves and others through negligence long before Glock came onto the market. Finding the difference in rates when information is so much more readily accessible now than before isn't super easy.

I’m sure they have. I wasn’t saying Glock-type pistols were the only ones you could have an oops moment with but in my opinion, they sure make it a lot easier. Especially when people do trigger jobs on them and soften up the trigger even more than it was.

I don’t know what other brands of those pistols come with a similar device, but hence the reason why someone invented that gadget device that you can add to a Glock to make it a little more safer to holster.

I’ve trained with law enforcement. The notion that all of them are highly trained is as false as the notion that all civilians are not trained (and I can give the names of members of law enforcement that will agree with that).

Well no, and I wasn’t implying that all officers are “highly-trained”..... they should be in my opinion, but no, that wasn’t my implication. I was just pointing it out, because there are still mistakes made, even by law enforcement. Just like in Lethal Weapon 3; I know it’s just a movie but it could still happen to anyone and his character was a highly-respected officer of 20 years on duty. Not to mention the fact that he had a DA/SA Smith and Wesson 5906 that he blew a hole in the floor with in that scene in the locker room when he had his NA. And wasn’t even a Glock....lol.

My point was that the mechanical object couldn't stop my own lack of awareness. That was my point. Yes there are different causes for a ND, but the main route in all of them is negligence. Different forms of negligence sure, but negligence nonetheless.

I get it, but still- that ND could’ve very easily happened with any gun. I’m my opinion, I still think hammer-fired guns are a little safer, without the need for a manual safety. That’s why I ended up buying a new pistol recently that better fits what I’m used to and better capable with.

Some of the triggers of DA pistpls are twice as heavy. Some of them aren't, and many aren't after all of the mods that people like to do on DA triggers to make them easier to shoot (entire companies devoted to that effort). Again the argument comes down to a situation where 5-6 lb. isn't enough to stop the firearm from discharging but 10 lb. is.

My experience and my intuition is that isn't very common. My guess is it's even possible for someone holstering a DA pistol to have an ND in the process. How much less likely than say a Glock I don't know.

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You’re right, it doesn’t. See my comment again about ole Murtaugh’s ND in Lethal Weapon. If done correctly, with no finger on the trigger and a thumb riding the backside of the hammer, that probably wouldn’t have happened.



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[TunnelRat]

Trigger jobs can be done on any action type. I don't modify my Glocks (though plenty do). I know people that replace hammer springs or do hammer and sear swaps on their hammer fired pistols (I used to do the same). Sometimes you end up with a DA down in the 6-8 lb. region and at that point I start to wonder why go DA (though you still get longer trigger travel and the ability to ride the hammer).

The only reason I used the phrase "highly trained" was because you did. My point was the level of skill in law enforcement when it comes to weapons handling varies greatly, as much as I've seen in civilian shooters (the mean is higher but the variance is about the same). I've seen officers cross their own bodies with their muzzles, some that frankly didn't have the technique to control a firearm at a rapid pace, and others shoot the wrong target multiple times. There are also officers, usually on their department SWAT or similar teams, that are extremely impressive. Glock leg is absolutely something that has and does happen in the law enforcement community (albeit not just with Glocks as there are M&Ps and P320s too). Would that have been stopped in some cases by additional safety measures? Certainly possible. When I take into account the sheer number of officers out there and the differences in training levels I've seen personally I don't consider the level of reports concerning, but that's me. Again I used to think differently and maybe I will again (I still own more hammer fired DA/SA pistols than striker fired safe action type pistols).

While yes my ND isn't the same thing (which I've already stated as much) similar to Murtaugh complacency and negligence is a thing and my point is that no firearm can completely compensate for our own lack of judgement. I don't dispute that one form of trigger system requires more force to activate. What I question is how much of a practical difference results from that difference in trigger weight. I'm simply expressing that from my perspective I'm not convinced that it does. However, I do know that even having used DA/SA for years and then taking courses that my consistency wasn't as good as I personally wanted. Enough to still be combat effective? Sure, probably. But in my mind the positives didn't outweigh the negatives. Others may well come to different conclusions and be completely correct (I still think about this at least monthly).

This was a good talk. I'm going to step aside from this point to prevent monopolizing DMK's thread further.

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[MTT TL]

Ah, well back to the thread at hand....

I only have one and it is a Sig 2022. It is a good pistol.

 

[TunnelRat]

Of all the ones I owned (most of my original list) my HK P2000 was my favorite (I owned 6 or so over the past 9-10 years). I loved the way that pistol fit in my hand, the size of it, and the weight of it. Its ejection pattern was a work of art and I never had a malfunction. My only gripe was the reset. Like most P series HKs it was on the longer side. I had a few times where I outran the trigger and had to stop to release the trigger and press again. Of course not long ago Bruce Gray came out with a drop in kit to help with that (I never had the patience to send mine in as the backlog was so long back then). I debate picking a P2000 back up. I did try a USP Compact but I liked the P2000 better even still. I still own an HK 45c because I spent way more on it than they're worth these days and because I enjoy shooting it.

I did try a CZ-P07, both the older Duty and the newer models. The newer models are a nice step up from the Duty. For some reason I never shot the P07 as well as the P01. Still, the size and weight of the P07 are just about perfect to me.

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[AgedWarrior]

I own a P-07 in .40S&W, it is a realiable and effective handgun; I like the feel of the gun, it aims and shoots great. Thinking that I ought to have one in 9mm too someday. I also own a couple FNX pistols which are great polymer guns too! Still own an old Ruger P series too; good old gun that eats everything you feed it.

 

[FrankenMauser]

I only have one and it is a Sig 2022. It is a good pistol.

I had one in .40 S&W given to me.
It wasn't bad. Plenty reliable and decently accurate. No complaints from me there.
But it didn't fit my hand worth a crap. (Which meant it wasn't fun to shoot. And it was too big to carry. So, what good was it?...)
I returned it to the original owner, whom had started missing it.

He hasn't fired it since...


I do have a Ruger P95 still. Bought new for $140 . No plans to ever sell it. Terrible trigger pull. Terrible ergonomics. Ridiculously top-heavy.
Mine is lovingly known as "The Brick" in my family - due to its ungainly shape, as well as the fact that it will digest anything you feed it, and ask for more ... and could probably do so while being used as a hammer to drive tent states into granite bedrock.

 

[Cowboyfromhell]

Hk all th way....great guns legendary reliability

 

[Screwball]

Wasn't the Beretta 90two polymer framed? Or was it a polymer/steel assembly?

Otherwise, everything I can think of is already in the list.

That's an interesting gun I never looked at before. I always thought folks were just saying Beretta 92 is some stupid way.

Is that a full polymer frame or just sections of it? From what I'm reading it's a polymer and alloy frame.

The frame was alloy, but the grips were polymer sleeves.