Had to pull my gun in my house, ended up being a funny story

[riflemen]

Living right outside of New Orleans. From a dead sleep about 2 am, a loud bang wakes me up, girlfriend is holding my arm asking what it was. Grabbed the XDm and light and told her to stay in the room, cleared the house while working my way to the front door, got there and it was still locked and dead bolted. Big gust of wind had ripped the storm door open and smashed it against the side of the house, breaking the glass. It was over pretty quickly but very tense for those few minutes. I was surprised at how alert I was, though.

Bud, you MESSED UP, you should have called 911 locked your bedroom door and waited for the police to come and save you, New Orleans, they have a good track record for saving people...

LOL, you would still be there under your covers, get Franks number so he can talk you through it next time...


PS Frank thanks for the Friendly warning through PM, Ill try not to disagree with you anymore... You have a lot of cleaning up to do if spelling words with like the S word with a $ symbol substitute is profanity, I have seen it on this forum plenty of times...


Still waiting for proof that leaving your bedroom gets you killed...

I am super bored waiting for sausage to finish cooking so I can make my stuffing for tomorrow, so I have been looking through headlines and found one but he didnt leave his bedroom, he was shot in his bed, when he went for his gun!!!!
OH YEAH AND HE WAS IN A WHEEL CHAIR!!!! Thats the only one I can find...
http://www.cbs46.com/story/23598023/homeowner-shot-during-fairburn-home-invasion

Guess what I did find, I started reading all these suspect shot by homeowner, and all the guys that shot the intruders, I have NOT FOUND ONE that stayed in his bedroom, I think your rule is really good, for the intruder, lol...

 

[Frank Ettin]

....Where is the proof,...

Well for one thing, there used to be an annual event called the National Tactical Invitational at which some 130 of the top security people and firearm trainers gathered, by invitation only, to test skills and examine tactics. One of the events is a force-on-force exercise using simunitions in which the "Good Guy" must clear a house against a single "Bad Guy." During the first six of these annual events, only one "Good Guy", in one year "survived" the exercise and he was head of NASA security firearms training at the time. And one, and only one, made it through the seventh year. The tactical advantage of the ensconced adversary is just too great. And remember, these were highly skilled, highly trained instructors/operators.

Second, I can refer to my training at Gunsite, with Massad Ayoob and with Louis Awerbuck.

Third, I can refer to the posts I've linked to in post 12 and the comments in those who also had some training in clearing buildings.

Fourth, see

• This story about a homeowner killed when he interrupted a burglar.
  
  
• This article about a pastor shot with his own gun interrupting a burglar.
  
  
• This article about a man shot confronting a burglar.
  
  
• This article about a man shot interrupting a burglar.
  
  
• This article about a police officer killed investigating an apparently on-going burglary at a neighbor's home.
  
  
• This article about a homeowner shot investigating a noise.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by riflemen:

OK, so find me some real life articles of guys getting shot leaving their bedrooms? Where is the proof fellas?

As in analogous subjects in which the actual data are limited, we can , should, and do rely upon other data, such as simulation--just as we do in evaluating air combat, etc. The data have been provided, several times.

Here they are again: "One of the events is a force-on-force exercise using simunitions in which the "Good Guy" must clear a house against a single "Bad Guy." During the first six of these annual events, only one "Good Guy", in one year "survived" the exercise and he was head of NASA security firearms training at the time. And one, and only one, made it through the seventh year. The tactical advantage of the ensconced adversary is just too great".

For real incidents, see Frank's post just before this one.

The strategy that you have espoused has been tried and found wanting in realistic exercises, and it is universally considered a very bad idea.

Still waiting for proof that leaving your bedroom gets you killed...

One more time: the proof has been presented. Your inability to recognize and comprehnd it is your problem.

 

[riflemen]

Them are all unarmed {with 2 exceptions} people coming home to a burglary in process, that is in no way what we are talking about Frank, c'mon you are reaching and it is embarrassingly obvious.

I am not talking about a stranger walking into a strange place and clearing an area already occupied by "bad guys", I am not talking about coming home unarmed to an intruder you don't know is there, your entire previous post is Phooey, its american chop phooey if you ask me......

So you did your research and that is what you came up with? "INTERRUPTING BURGLARS", this is a conversation about whether to hide in your room with your hd weapon pointed at the door or proceeding towards the threat at a safe pace in a familiar environment after training to do so, with practice and planning, give me a break, you have let me down, I thought this was going to be harder than that..

I enjoyed the one with the Pastor {obviously tried to talk the gentleman out of robbing the church while pointing a gun at him, most likely didn't have the heart to pull the trigger}, also interrupted a burglar... None of these apply.. try again, but don't hurt yourself


Keep bringing up the force on force, it is not the same as protecting your house, they are walking into a occupied area giving, in essence they are the intruder. I am talking about my house with my plan and my practice on my terms, I will see where they are before they know I am looking for them...

Force on force that you are talking about are excercises to show locals that they need more backup, more funding and more equipment before entering a building, I agree... It has nothing to do with home invasion, if anything you prove my point, everytime the invader gets shot, good job, in them situations where a cop is clearing a building they are the intruder...

there are holes in the hide and let them seek you technique, they can burn you out, they can pepper your bedroom door and walls with shots, they cankick down the door guns blazing and catch on of your kids with a shot, I want the chance to be between them and my family, you have not convinced me that hiding is the way to go...

I am not trying to ruffle your feathers, I see you guys have been on here for almost a decade, and I am sure you can gather as much opinion as you please, but as for your argument, it is poor at best..

You keep bringing up the force on force, where the cops intrude an area and get killed, do you realize that is proven my point..

 

[Frank Ettin]

...You keep bringing up the force on force, where the cops intrude an area and get killed, do you realize that is proven my point.

Actually, it doesn't prove your point. If you are going through your house looking for a bad guy, you are effectively intruding on a space controlled by someone with hostile intentions. That it's your house means nothing. The bad guy doesn't need to know your house. All he needs to know is that you're coming. Unless you have secret passages, he'll know from where you'll be coming.

 

[riflemen]

I disagree, a stranger in a strange house won't even know where the light switches are, you will know where he is he {in my plan} will have no idea where I am... I will not be wearing cement shoes and a cow bell, the alarm will be blaring they wont hear my footsteps, under 2 minutes I can have my kids in the room with my wife, if I go to my oldest sons room {furthest from mine} first and send him to get his brother and then proceed to the stairway directly I am there at the bottom of the stairs in less than a minute!!!

If you think an intruder has the upper hand in your house, with alarm sirens blaring, that you do, then take your own advise and hide until they are done raping your security. Maybe you should stack up your valuables so they aren't there as long...

I am having trouble taking you guys seriously.. You seriously with a straight face think an intruder has control of my 2800square foot frist floor in under 60 seconds, they are still adjusting to the darkness, and as soon as I make out their shape I will be flashing my strobe confirming the threat and squeezing the trigger..

Again I will touch on the fact that leaving the room is not for everyone, but in my home I will be leaving the room, I told my reasons, you failed to sway me, so nothing changed... You are bringing unrelated material to the discussion and can't see past what you think you know..

We all have our own plan if we are smart and we practice it, yours is pretty easy to practice and I am not saying its wrong, but its just not the same as mine, I know my local troopers response time, I know what can happen when people are left alone in your home, and I am confident that leaving the room will end better than not..

This is getting no where, I am sad to say, thanks for trying, have a good holiday, no hard feelings, I hope, my intentions were not to make an enemy here, I already met a local member that I was able to help with a reloading issue, besides today I am impressed with the caliber of members here...

 

[Ske1etor]

Actually, it doesn't prove your point. If you are going through your house looking for a bad guy, you are effectively intruding on a space controlled by someone with hostile intentions. That it's your house means nothing. The bad guy doesn't need to know your house. All he needs to know is that you're coming. Unless you have secret passages, he'll know from where you'll be coming.

I'm going to disagree. If you're in my house in the dark, there's a good chance you're leaving in a bag. I know my house and the door was locked for your safety.

 

[riflemen]

I locked the door for your safety, I like that, I am definitely going to use that...

 

[Frank Ettin]

...You seriously with a straight face think an intruder has control of my 2800square foot frist floor...

He doesn't have to. He just has to, and does, control the 10 square feet of space you're about to walk into.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I told my reasons, you failed to sway me,...

Let me be clear -- I don't have any interest in swaying you. You do whatever you want. Your fate is not my concern.

My concern is other readers of this thread, and for that reason I will not let misinformation go unchallenged. Once again, as another member of staff here, and a nationally known trainer has said:

Unless you have family that needs to be secured, lights on or off, I don't think going searching for the BGs is a great idea.

The mistake is more likely to be going to investigate, not whether the lights are on.

This. It bears repeating.

When a criminal breaks into your home, the smart thing to do is to get yourself and your loved ones into a locked room with your weapon out and ready to fire the moment the criminal comes through the door. Once your family is safe behind that locked door, don't go looking for trouble! Call the cops and let them find the intruder for you.

Waiting in a secure place while keeping your family behind your protective firearm is not cowardly. It is not an act of surrender, and it isn't even "hiding from the crooks!" It is simply setting up a well-planned tactical ambush.

This tactical ambush tilts the odds in your favor and puts you in the best position to directly protect the most valuable things in your house: your life, and the lives of the people you love.

Of course, you may surprise the intruder while you are moving to secure your family. That is why we train how to move through the house, how to "pie" corners, how to retain the firearm if attacked, etc. -- not because we will "clear the house" by ourselves, but because we may need to move through danger to protect family members....

and:

One thing that always fascinates me about this stuff is that those who have a higher level of training have much more robust understanding of how to do it safely... and also of how & when not to do it....

 

[riflemen]

I don't think I have a closet with only 10sq ft, the fact of the matter is I can see everything minus 2 small 2x2 spots that have items on the floor and a human couldn't hide and wouldn't know to, and both spots cna be cleared separately with out being in danger of the other, and there are no doors accessible from the outside ground near them 2 spots..

I am trying to end this conversation, not to be rude, but its over, there is no more talking about it, I have practiced my way and I have it as perfect as it can be, IMO {which in my house is all that matters when it comes to defending it} my family is safer with me outside the room guarding... If you think a intruder wont blow 30 rounds of 308 through your bedroom door and walls before entering, or will heitate to turn the gas stove on and light the first floor of your house to get rid of their finger prints, you are mistaken... Never mind if they have internet access and a piece of black pipe with some gun powder, you just stay in your bedroom nice and safe...

Since we started this conversation I have told 2 people about it, both laughed about the hiding in the bedroom idea, maybe its different on the west coast, but over here, you come in, you probably wont ever know the cops were called...

I would most likely wait at the top of my stairs for the intruder to get range but I promise I wont be in my bedroom hiding..

Again, good luck, its good to see you feel strongly about this, thats better than having no feelings. I pray neither of us or anyone else on this forum have to ever put our practice into action, but I think if anyone takes anything away from this conversation, its have a plan and practice it, what ever you are comfortable with...

I know you said you have to worry about the readers on this sight, and thats great, but how would you feel if someone stayed and hid and burnt alive in their home while an unarmed intruder set it a blaze? Swaying people with unreliable info is not responsible, you talk about the training for cops entering an occupied dwelling, you talk about getting your gun taken from you or getting shot "looking" for someone in your home, but I don't think it has ever happened, I looked for an hour and a half, didn't find one situation that we are talking about that went bad...

I also gave you a list of reasons waiting and hiding of a capable person with a plan is a bad idea, fire, explosions, the fact you will have to shoot someone in front of your kids and they will be put in denger vs you outside the door neutralizing the treat before they can even see the danger, shots going through walls and doors, all these things just off the top of my head that can go wrong, and the only thing that can go wrong with staying out of the room and protecting your family from outside it is, WHAT? an intruder takes my gun, or gets the drop on me and I get shot???

Again, good luck, I will take my chances with leaving the room... This is getting repetitive so I will be the bigger man and bow out, you did not address my concerns, not once, you just keep saying the same thing back and forth and none of it is good enough to convince me I am wrong...

 

[Frank Ettin]

....I am trying to end this conversation, not to be rude, but its over, there is no more talking about it,...

Then do so.

...Since we started this conversation I have told 2 people about it, both laughed about the hiding in the bedroom idea,...

So what? What do they know?

...but I think if anyone takes anything away from this conversation, its have a plan and practice it, what ever you are comfortable with...

A plan is a good thing, but only if it is founded on valid principles and good training. It's not a question necessarily of comfort level. A lot of people are perfectly comfortable with very bad ideas. Consider the Dunning–Kruger effect:

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias wherein unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate....

 

[riflemen]

last reply I promise, lol...

what do they know, nothing I guess, no one knows as much as you, you know it all congrats on that, I am so impressed with everything you have come up with, you are soooo cool..

And you don't know what training I have, I have taken every class I could for the last 15 years, started because I own my own business and carried large amounts of money in bad neighborhoods, but I was hooked, I am retired {very well} before I was 35 and now have a lot of free time to attend seminars and shoot 500 rounds a weekend, enter competitions all over New England, and I have specialised in hand to hand combat in one way or another since I was in my early teens, golden gloves at 19 and I made a point of knowing how to defend my self, with or without firearms...

But I don't have to prove myself to you, like I said, you do it your way Ill do it mine, go back and read through the posts, you are getting upset, I could care less, just wanted to give a different opinion, which you are too closed minded to see, thats fine, not an issue, I pray your run and hide technique nver has to be put into action..

be safe, and again, have a great holiday, we have a lot to be thankful for...

 

[Frank Ettin]

...And you don't know what training I have, I have taken every class I could for the last 15 years,...

Then I'm surprised -- especially considering the concepts that OldMarksman and I (and Kathy Jackson (pax) in abstentia) discussed are included in the home defense doctrine taught by every major instructor of whom I'm aware. The ensconced adversary always has the tactical advantage. It's good to know how to clear a house or to move through an area in which one or more hostiles might be, but it is something to be done only when absolutely necessary.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I just searched {and did some good reading} and all of the headlines are "intruder killed, intruder shot 5 times, intruders shot 1 dead and 1 at large", there are few {if any, I have not seen one} showing an armed homeowner shot while hunting someone in his house}...

I now have had a chance to do research to address this. No links were provided to any articles, so I also:

...googled "homeowner shot in home invasion,...

Let's look at some of the articles:

• There's this article:

  ...According to Lt. Sheila Cole of the sheriff's office, a man attempted to break into a home and in doing so shot the 78-year-old homeowner in the abdomen. The homeowner managed to return fire and struck the suspect as he was fleeing the scene in a black SUV....

  That's not much information, but it sort of looks like the homeowner caught the intruder in the act of breaking in.
  
  
• Or this article:

  ..."They knocked on the door several times. There was no answer and at that time they obviously didn't think anyone was there and they broke a window and gained entry," said Walter Stensland with the Harris County Precinct 4 Constable's Office.
  
  But they didn't get very far. After the two made it through the doorway, the homeowner -- a 60-year-old man alone inside -- shot them once each in the chest....

  That seems pretty clear that the homeowner was able to surprise the intruders when they came to him.
  
  
• Or this article:

  ...a male subject entered a residence in the 7900 block of South County Road 700 East, Hardinsburg.
  
  ISP said upon entry, the homeowners, Barry Frost, 59, and Terah Frost, 61, ...went downstairs to attempt to locate the person that had entered the residence. Unable to locate an intruder, the brothers looked for tools to fix damage done to the door.
  
  As Barry Frost opened a cellar door, he encountered the intruder, 23-year-old Jacob Grimes of Paoli, ISP said. Grimes punched Barry Frost and engaged him in a physical altercation. Terah Frost, in an adjacent room, heard the dispute and upon entering the room observed Grimes, ...in possession of a knife, fighting with Barry Frost. Terah Frost shot Grimes with a handgun, police said....

  Here one of the homeowners went for a look-see and was in fact ambushed by the intruder, who had a significant age advantage and was armed. Fortunately the other homeowner came on the scene and was able to deal with the intruder. If Barry Frost had been alone, things might not have ended well for him.
  
  
• Or this article:

  ...The home invasion happened when a mother and her 8-month-old son were home alone. She says her family members came home just in time to help her, but both of them were hurt when they came face-to-face with the suspects....

  
  
• Or this article:

  ...Officers say two masked suspects approached the home, but the homeowner's nephew fired shots through the door, wounding one suspect. The other suspect ran away. Police believe he got into a car with two other suspects....

  
  
• Or this article:

  ...The men entered the home in a side window, went downstairs where some family members were playing video games and that's where the shots started flying before moving to the main floor and out the door and into the front yard....

In general, there's not a lot of information given. But it appears that in only one case did the homeowner go looking for the intruder, and that one worked out for the homeowner only because someone else promptly came to his aid.

 

[Webleymkv]

If I might interject once more, does anyone have any practical alternative to hunkering down and calling the cops every time you hear a strange noise in the night other than going to investigate the source of the noise? As I said in my previous post, if an alternative has been presented somewhere along the line, I've missed it.

 

[Frank Ettin]

If I might interject once more, does anyone have any practical alternative to hunkering down and calling the cops every time you hear a strange noise in the night other than going to investigate the source of the noise?....

That's a tough question. On one hand, it really doesn't make sense to call the police for every noise. On the other hand, if the noise is an intruder, and if you don't have to go around the house to round up innocents, it's inadvisable to go for a look.

So the first thing I'd do is investigate the noise to the extent possible without leaving a place of safety (and without leaving my family alone in that place of safety). So perhaps start by waiting, listening, and thinking.

Does the sound repeat? Can you locate where it's coming from? Does it seem to be moving? Is it a single type of noise that repeats, or is it a series of different types of noise? From different locations? Can you see anything from the windows? Is it windy? Do you have animals, and where are they? Are there animals in the neighborhood? Have you seen signs of animals foraging on your property?

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by riflemen:

Keep bringing up the force on force, it is not the same as protecting your house, they are walking into a occupied area giving, in essence they are the intruder.

What is that supposed to mean?

I am talking about my house with my plan and my practice on my terms, I will see where they are before they know I am looking for them...

Famous last words.

In the exercises described by Frank, Ayoob, and others, the defenders knew every inch of the structures, and the intruders did not. But when the defenders ant looking for the intruders, they lost.

Try it. Use Airsoft guns. Try a dozen different simulations, each with two intruders. That should take you out of the world of fantasy.

Force on force that you are talking about are excercises to show locals that they need more backup, more funding and more equipment before entering a building,....

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I agree... It has nothing to do with home invasion, if anything you prove my point, everytime the invader gets shot, good job, in them situations where a cop is clearing a building they are the intruder...

You have misunderstood the point. It is the defender who loses, when the defender goes looking for intruders.

You seriously with a straight face think an intruder has control of my 2800square foot frist floor in under 60 seconds, they are still adjusting to the darkness, and as soon as I make out their shape I will be flashing my strobe confirming the threat and squeezing the trigger..

Step into your 2800 square feet and look around. There is no place in the area in which intruders may not be. You have to find them, identify them, and shoot before they shoot you.. And from wherever they are, that can shoot at you in a crossfire at the same time without taking the time to first decide whether you are a a threat.

And why would they be adjusting to the darkness?

The participants in the FoF exercises would have a way of putting it: "been there, done that; bad idea; it doesn't work". Defenders who try to clear the house always lose.

And you don't know what training I have, I have taken every class I could for the last 15 years,...

How did you possibly miss the parts where the instructors explained why you should always let the threat come to you?

I am retired {very well} before I was 35 and now have a lot of free time to attend seminars and shoot 500 rounds a weekend, enter competitions all over New England, and I have specialised in hand to hand combat in one way or another since I was in my early teens, golden gloves at 19 and I made a point of knowing how to defend my self, with or without firearms...

Surely you understand that no amount of shooting, no martial arts, and no amateur boxing skills can stop a bullet.

You keep bringing up the force on force, where the cops intrude an area and get killed, do you realize that is proven my point..

No, no, no. The defender goes looking for intruders, and loses.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Webleymkv:

If I might interject once more, does anyone have any practical alternative to hunkering down and calling the cops every time you hear a strange noise in the night other than going to investigate the source of the noise? As I said in my previous post, if an alternative has been presented somewhere along the line, I've missed it.

Yep. See Post #70:

Do not forget that there are safe strategies that do not involving calling the police in an uncertain situation; you can eliminate the uncertainty almost entirely. It wouldn't cost much at all to obtain the capability to see most of your house on your iPhone from anywhere you happen to be.

And Post #72:

You could put in one heck of a high-tech, redundant, smart-phone-based viewing system for what that cost.

You could even check things out from the end of your driveway. Two friends of mine have had occasions to do that.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

If I might interject once more, does anyone have any practical alternative to hunkering down and calling the cops every time you hear a strange noise in the night other than going to investigate the source of the noise? As I said in my previous post, if an alternative has been presented somewhere along the line, I've missed it.

IMO, you've got to play the odds. Calling the cops with every concern is not only ludicrous, but is tantamount to wasting precious time that can be better spent on real emergencies, and can also lead to the cops "knowing" you and that you cry wolf often. I clear my house often, but there is at least a 75% chance it is nothing when I do. When the odds get down to more like 50/50, I have a real problem and I am more apt to apply the barricade and energize the electronics. Of course, below that there is no question. No plan is perfect, no house layout is standard, no family's occupants are all trained the same, etc. If I heard a huge crash in my house, I would immediately investigate, as the windy unsettled area I live in has probably sent a tree through my living room. Others here would likely immediately barricade with a cell phone. Someone said on here that an intruder has a distinct tactical advantage. IMO, X10 lighting with a remote takes that advantage away. There are all kinds of ways to un-handicap yourself for those nervous moments when you are not going to be happy until you've proven to yourself your family is alone in the house. And I think riflemen's plan is actually better than most out there, and he's being unecessarily piled on. As I said, no plan is perfect, but this reminds me of the gun safe vs. RSC threads, where eventually it is implied that anybody that owns an RSC will likely have his guns stolen before he even buys them.