Had a near incident today
- Thread starter Pezo
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sirgilligan
New member
According to my training, my CCW is for personal protection. I am not a civilian guard dog, I am not to act like a law enforcement officer in any manner.
The OP didn't shoot anyone. That is good. Heck, that is great.
Some people want to deny that people can be and are at times afraid.
The man that approached the car was being foolish. It is possible that since he is a large man that he considers himself to be well protected. Who knows, maybe he had a gun on him too.
What I read out of this is a lot of tension, frustration, aggravation, and further more, the lack of trust of our fellow man, and fear that what you see in the news may happen to you. It is hard times we live in, people are on edge for good reason.
I think that this story should have never been shared. Never mentioned because it doesn't need to be mentioned. Why? Because there will be some that say you did right, some that say you did wrong. Pat yourself on the back, learn from the situation, and keep it to yourself is my advice.
And if the guy that walked up to the car happened to be here and reading this, next time, smile and say from a distance, "Excuse me sir, the line starts back over there" and don't get too close to the car, stay visible with hands open and not clinched, and understand that even if he was cutting line being polite is the only correct action and if the guy insists to cut line then let it go. Beats getting shot.
Just my thoughts, I am not sure what prompted me to chime in, but I have.
Please be a little nicer, a little more forgiving, and a little slower to anger. Be vigilant and willing to back down if you can, but if you can't then defend you and yours at all costs.
The OP didn't shoot anyone. That is good. Heck, that is great.
Some people want to deny that people can be and are at times afraid.
The man that approached the car was being foolish. It is possible that since he is a large man that he considers himself to be well protected. Who knows, maybe he had a gun on him too.
What I read out of this is a lot of tension, frustration, aggravation, and further more, the lack of trust of our fellow man, and fear that what you see in the news may happen to you. It is hard times we live in, people are on edge for good reason.
I think that this story should have never been shared. Never mentioned because it doesn't need to be mentioned. Why? Because there will be some that say you did right, some that say you did wrong. Pat yourself on the back, learn from the situation, and keep it to yourself is my advice.
And if the guy that walked up to the car happened to be here and reading this, next time, smile and say from a distance, "Excuse me sir, the line starts back over there" and don't get too close to the car, stay visible with hands open and not clinched, and understand that even if he was cutting line being polite is the only correct action and if the guy insists to cut line then let it go. Beats getting shot.
Just my thoughts, I am not sure what prompted me to chime in, but I have.
Please be a little nicer, a little more forgiving, and a little slower to anger. Be vigilant and willing to back down if you can, but if you can't then defend you and yours at all costs.
TheNocturnus
New member
Sorry Peetzakilla, you are very wrong on this one. A person unlawfully entering your dwelling (which includes your car) and is seeming to cause imminent harm or death, you can legally shoot them.
Taken fom the Missouri Castle Law doctrine:
"2. A person may not use deadly force upon another person under the circumstances specified in subsection 1 of this section unless:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such deadly force is necessary to protect himself or herself or another against death, serious physical injury,[ rape, sodomy or kidnapping or serious physical injury through robbery, burglary or arson] or any forcible felony; or
(2) Such force is used against a person who unlawfully enters, remains after unlawfully entering, or attempts to unlawfully enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle lawfully occupied by such person.
3. A person does not have a duty to retreat from a dwelling, residence, or vehicle where the person is not unlawfully entering or unlawfully remaining." ]
In any case, good job OP for keeping your cool and not escalating the situation. Next time you will know that people in the atm form stupid lines, they do it at my bank also.
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This got me thinking about numerous posts where the poster comments that he answers the door with their pistol, or revolver. I've read where a stranger opens the house front, or back door. Generally the discussion goes along the line of suggestions of pistols, shotguns, or carbines to have at the ready, and the best ways to shoot the BG and plead self defense.
Why is the stranger opening the car door different from the stranger opening the front door of your house ?
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Tail gator:
Being the third party in that situation, yes, of course, it could be a bad guy in the car, it could be a bad guy outside, they could both be libyan nuclear materials smugglers.
Being the third party puts an armed citizen in a bind. In that situation I could have just covered my own keister and let the chips fall. That's not what I do, though.
When something like this happens, as has happened a couple times, as soon as I hear raised voices, I go on alert, and try to read the situation.
In this situation, visual and language cues probably would have ruled out a narcotics bust on the guy in the van. When a weapon was pulled out without a badge, or shouted warnings, it would be a pretty strong clue that the guy outside the van wasn't a cop.
Lacking any evidence that the guy outside the van had a legitimate reason to drag out and beat the van driver, or god forbid, shoot him in the head, I'd be stuck in the situation of making a shoot/don't shoot decision based only on a few seconds of eyewitness input. I'm also in the equally bad situation of deciding whether or not I should even intervene, and then, stuck with the question of how to do it safely if I do.
The situation for an armed third party would be horrible, and no matter what, that third party will be hung out to dry for intervening and maybe killing or injuring one either D1 or D2. Vigilantes get no respect, and that is what I would be viewed as.
Being 3 cars behind an enclosed van, I don't know how many people are in there, it may even be a van full of nuns transporting mentally disabled orphans to the petting zoo, and D2 was a homicidally angry victim of abuse by nuns.
I'm not someone who can automatically lay down a blanket statement that "it's not my problem. Let them all die, I have a wife/family/self to take care of."
I'm going to see both of those people, D1 and D2 as possibly being the best friends I ever had in grade school, the doctor who saved my neighbor, or so forth. heck, D2 might even simply be a mentally retarded adult that escaped his handlers and is playing "die hard" in the parking lot. I'm going to weigh every bit of information, and be the "professional witness" that an armed person must be.
Am I going to jump out and shoot? heck no. I've been in this situation before, and will again, and will not even expose my weapon until I am absolutely certain that a victim is about to have his life ended or irreversibly altered.
The one thing I can say with certainty, is that if I had witnessed that situation, I'd have had 911 speed dialed before D2 got abreast of the window. It would be very apparent that there was at least a probable assault and battery in progress, and being only 6 feet 190 pounds, I'm not going to try breaking it up myself.
That is one of the reasons that I have carried pepper spray quite often myself. macing some fool is a lot smarter than shooting him, if there is any doubt of the intentions.
If D2 had confronted me in that manner and I saw no weapon, I'd have left my gun still stashed and my pepper spray ready instead.
I can always shoot him in the head while he rolls on the ground gouging at his eyes if I change my mind, right?
Being the third party in that situation, yes, of course, it could be a bad guy in the car, it could be a bad guy outside, they could both be libyan nuclear materials smugglers.
Being the third party puts an armed citizen in a bind. In that situation I could have just covered my own keister and let the chips fall. That's not what I do, though.
When something like this happens, as has happened a couple times, as soon as I hear raised voices, I go on alert, and try to read the situation.
In this situation, visual and language cues probably would have ruled out a narcotics bust on the guy in the van. When a weapon was pulled out without a badge, or shouted warnings, it would be a pretty strong clue that the guy outside the van wasn't a cop.
Lacking any evidence that the guy outside the van had a legitimate reason to drag out and beat the van driver, or god forbid, shoot him in the head, I'd be stuck in the situation of making a shoot/don't shoot decision based only on a few seconds of eyewitness input. I'm also in the equally bad situation of deciding whether or not I should even intervene, and then, stuck with the question of how to do it safely if I do.
The situation for an armed third party would be horrible, and no matter what, that third party will be hung out to dry for intervening and maybe killing or injuring one either D1 or D2. Vigilantes get no respect, and that is what I would be viewed as.
Being 3 cars behind an enclosed van, I don't know how many people are in there, it may even be a van full of nuns transporting mentally disabled orphans to the petting zoo, and D2 was a homicidally angry victim of abuse by nuns.
I'm not someone who can automatically lay down a blanket statement that "it's not my problem. Let them all die, I have a wife/family/self to take care of."
I'm going to see both of those people, D1 and D2 as possibly being the best friends I ever had in grade school, the doctor who saved my neighbor, or so forth. heck, D2 might even simply be a mentally retarded adult that escaped his handlers and is playing "die hard" in the parking lot. I'm going to weigh every bit of information, and be the "professional witness" that an armed person must be.
Am I going to jump out and shoot? heck no. I've been in this situation before, and will again, and will not even expose my weapon until I am absolutely certain that a victim is about to have his life ended or irreversibly altered.
The one thing I can say with certainty, is that if I had witnessed that situation, I'd have had 911 speed dialed before D2 got abreast of the window. It would be very apparent that there was at least a probable assault and battery in progress, and being only 6 feet 190 pounds, I'm not going to try breaking it up myself.
That is one of the reasons that I have carried pepper spray quite often myself. macing some fool is a lot smarter than shooting him, if there is any doubt of the intentions.
If D2 had confronted me in that manner and I saw no weapon, I'd have left my gun still stashed and my pepper spray ready instead.
I can always shoot him in the head while he rolls on the ground gouging at his eyes if I change my mind, right?
The thing is we need to take a global, 360 degree view of these situations, and never, ever, make hasty decisions at any point.
A lot of statements were made here that didn't look at this event from other perspectives.
The guy found himself in a perceived threat of injury. I would have done almost the same thing if someone approached my vehicle at an atm. I probably wouldn't want him to have handled it any differently. As far as he knew, he was about to be dragged from his car, robbed and killed, and his car stolen.
A lot of statements were made here that didn't look at this event from other perspectives.
The guy found himself in a perceived threat of injury. I would have done almost the same thing if someone approached my vehicle at an atm. I probably wouldn't want him to have handled it any differently. As far as he knew, he was about to be dragged from his car, robbed and killed, and his car stolen.
Theres way too many what if's here. But under the Op's info at the atm, I prob would have acted the very same also. Like we all are saying, you might have done this the other person might have done that and I prob would have done what the Op done. All in all it sounded like it all went well in the end.
Pezo, fortunately the mad dude at the ATM didn't beat you up or cause you to respond with deadly force. Unfortunately, some of you fellow TFL members are whipping up on you pretty good.
They, of course, would have handled the situation perfectly with no cause for criticism or question of their motives or actions.
Glad it ended like it did and everyone went home in one piece...
They, of course, would have handled the situation perfectly with no cause for criticism or question of their motives or actions.
Glad it ended like it did and everyone went home in one piece...
Farmer, it's the what-ifs that make it so hard.
You know, the stupid coyote should be asking himself "what if" all the time. Like, what if that bright light at the end of his acme instant tunnel is a train?
Stressfire and other combat training are all about getting you working on the what ifs before the really hard questions arise.
I never want to be in that situation. I haven't made a good decision since I was 10, it seems. I just know that if I ever use lethal force, that dark figure in the alley who just fired a gun at me will be just a teenage kid who has a toy gun and a firecracker.
If I don't fire, While I stand there wondering "what if it's just a kid with a cap gun," the genuinely evil escaped death row inmate will kill me and take my car.
There are times that I wonder if I'd not be much better off not carrying a gun. At least if I'm shot to death in a robbery, I won't wind up going to hell because I killed the mayor's teenage daughter accidentally instead of hitting the guy who was raping her.
I'm going to bed. Thinking this much makes my head hurt.
You know, the stupid coyote should be asking himself "what if" all the time. Like, what if that bright light at the end of his acme instant tunnel is a train?
Stressfire and other combat training are all about getting you working on the what ifs before the really hard questions arise.
I never want to be in that situation. I haven't made a good decision since I was 10, it seems. I just know that if I ever use lethal force, that dark figure in the alley who just fired a gun at me will be just a teenage kid who has a toy gun and a firecracker.
If I don't fire, While I stand there wondering "what if it's just a kid with a cap gun," the genuinely evil escaped death row inmate will kill me and take my car.
There are times that I wonder if I'd not be much better off not carrying a gun. At least if I'm shot to death in a robbery, I won't wind up going to hell because I killed the mayor's teenage daughter accidentally instead of hitting the guy who was raping her.
I'm going to bed. Thinking this much makes my head hurt.
youngunz4life
New member
read the whole thread and only once over a couple days
You are entitled to handle these situations the way you see fit. The same goes for someone who wants a weapon to open his door @ home and an infinite amount of other reasons. I personally feel it was unnecessary the way you handled it. You pretty much figured you had made a mistake and cut when you saw this man exiting his vehicle before he even appraoched you. This man had a reason to approach you, so the surprise factor is taken out. Another man(probabaly a starnger, maybe an acquaintance) smiled and/or smirked when the 1st driver looked at him as he left. This situation doesn't seem dangerous in the least bit. Again, I have no problem with the way you handled it. I do personally feel it was unnecessary though. I have also noted that the posters that are on the OP's side to include the OP are Adament that they are right without much flexibility. There is nothign wrong with people having varying opinions on this subject
I also am not going to be nice and kind to everyone and his brother just because I am carrying. This paragraph isn't directed to the OP. I just feel taht if the guy is being anal and overly aggressive I might say something to him. I really don't give a rat's behind if he or anyone else has a problem with it. No, I wouldn't escalate the situation or be confrontational. That doesn't mean I have to be lovey-dovey and nice to this guy because I have a firearm. If I am in a situation that is a threat than I would do my best to make 'peace' if you want to call it that. If I was in a situation that was a threat I would drive away and/or grab my firearm. You'd be surprised how quick something could happen before you do drive away. This situation didn't warrant driving away in my opinion, but I know what the man would've thought if you did that: coincidence or scumbag.
You are entitled to handle these situations the way you see fit. The same goes for someone who wants a weapon to open his door @ home and an infinite amount of other reasons. I personally feel it was unnecessary the way you handled it. You pretty much figured you had made a mistake and cut when you saw this man exiting his vehicle before he even appraoched you. This man had a reason to approach you, so the surprise factor is taken out. Another man(probabaly a starnger, maybe an acquaintance) smiled and/or smirked when the 1st driver looked at him as he left. This situation doesn't seem dangerous in the least bit. Again, I have no problem with the way you handled it. I do personally feel it was unnecessary though. I have also noted that the posters that are on the OP's side to include the OP are Adament that they are right without much flexibility. There is nothign wrong with people having varying opinions on this subject
I also am not going to be nice and kind to everyone and his brother just because I am carrying. This paragraph isn't directed to the OP. I just feel taht if the guy is being anal and overly aggressive I might say something to him. I really don't give a rat's behind if he or anyone else has a problem with it. No, I wouldn't escalate the situation or be confrontational. That doesn't mean I have to be lovey-dovey and nice to this guy because I have a firearm. If I am in a situation that is a threat than I would do my best to make 'peace' if you want to call it that. If I was in a situation that was a threat I would drive away and/or grab my firearm. You'd be surprised how quick something could happen before you do drive away. This situation didn't warrant driving away in my opinion, but I know what the man would've thought if you did that: coincidence or scumbag.
So let me see if I can summarize:
1) Guy inadvertently cuts line at an ATM
2) Other (large) guy yells at him for doing it
3) Guy who cut line says "I'm sorry" and moves out of the line
That about it? I left out some of the nuances, of course, but that's how a prosecutor would present it to a jury. Except for the part where 3) is replaced with "The defendant here murdered him with a handgun"
I don't think you're allowed to shoot a guy for yelling at you (or walking up to your car window) in any state in the nation...and that's all the guy did. This story is missing one crucial element that would take it into the realm of acceptable self-defence: the presence of a credible danger to life or safety. "Walking aggressively" may indeed be intimidating, but it's not the same as pulling a knife or punching out your car window.
Given all the information described in this thread so far, you most certainly did the right thing by not pulling a gun on him, since he didn't actually make a credible threat of physical violence. You can't assume all large hulking men are going to rip your limbs off any more than you can assume all scantily-dressed women know how to dance on a pole.
It sounds like you had plenty of time to start shooting if he had actually initiated an assault.
1) Guy inadvertently cuts line at an ATM
2) Other (large) guy yells at him for doing it
3) Guy who cut line says "I'm sorry" and moves out of the line
That about it? I left out some of the nuances, of course, but that's how a prosecutor would present it to a jury. Except for the part where 3) is replaced with "The defendant here murdered him with a handgun"
I don't think you're allowed to shoot a guy for yelling at you (or walking up to your car window) in any state in the nation...and that's all the guy did. This story is missing one crucial element that would take it into the realm of acceptable self-defence: the presence of a credible danger to life or safety. "Walking aggressively" may indeed be intimidating, but it's not the same as pulling a knife or punching out your car window.
Given all the information described in this thread so far, you most certainly did the right thing by not pulling a gun on him, since he didn't actually make a credible threat of physical violence. You can't assume all large hulking men are going to rip your limbs off any more than you can assume all scantily-dressed women know how to dance on a pole.
It sounds like you had plenty of time to start shooting if he had actually initiated an assault.
Amd6547. In response to your comment. "He could be within his legal rights tp shoot me" if you were carrying wouild you seriously consider walking up to some one who may have made a mistake in traffic shout at them and then stare them down in an intimidating fashion for a significant amount of time. Your post must be a put on. Also I made a mistake in a confusing line situation and apologized in a polite fashion. Why can't some of you understand that? Also everyone doesn't read the part where AFTER I apoloogize nicely and say I am going to correct issue by going to back of line this "nut" starrs at me wildley and pi--ed off looking for a time after. I was thinking he wasn't going to accept kindness and apology and was maybe going to attack me. OVER A MISTAKE he somewhat caused by how he positioned his car. A point I didn't even mention in the verbal apoology!
I don't see rudeness on the part of the OP so much as an accident. If he were to deliberately cut into the ATM then that would be rudeness - and rudeness is inflammatory. If when he was approached in his car he yelled in his defense of that accident out of pride that would have been rudeness, and not the best idea.
So the OP made a mistake. I too wish that mistakes never happen but they do because we can not know/do everything. (nor can we be expected to) I'd say that the man who approached the OP's vehicle yelling did something unwise and put himself at risk in a way that didn't aid in accomplishing his goal (informing about cutting in line). Unless his goal included intimidation - which really shouldn't have been part of his goal.
So now what?
It's interesting to note that either of the two people involved could have de-escalated the situation In this case it was the OP who took a step to do so - and it's a good thing he did because the other person did not seem to have enough self control to do so. The OP left his pride behind which made a difference in his response. Here's what I mean. He could have said something like "Hey man back off! It was a mistake man so chill, seriously" - while not "wrong" that would have been rude and still inflammatory in the little jabs of disrespect.
We are going to be perceived as the "aggressors" by others or the "victim" by ourselves in a confrontation and before we get a chance to sort things out having someone de-escalate is a great thing to do in the mean time. Even better to do it yourself instead of wait for the other person or the authorities to do it. Married folks you know what I mean haha. It's the secular version of "showing grace"
Something to point out:
I read a post by another forum member directing me to a webpage about "predator behavior" which suggested we be on the look out for "abnormal" behaviors.
I consider it abnormal behavior to approach a stranger's driver side window following the side of the car (and no greeting along the way). Can you remember the last time you did that to a stranger? Or the last time someone has done that to you? - it's something like "hey can I get a dollar" or "your tire is flat" - either way not a common occurrence so some wariness is expected. I wasn't there so I don't know how close he got to the car door but a component of "getting in someone's face" is intimidation due to proximity. Why not speak from a few feet away from the window? What does being right up next to someone when yelling convey? - the possibility of physical intimidation/action - shoving, striking, making the other guy flinch.. or even opening a car door. People can be extremely impulsive. - the website was a good read and I wish I could put up a link for y'all. It had other abnormal behaviors and danger areas that I didn't previously think about.
Here's a crazy thought:
What would it have taken for the man approaching the van to be the one to de-escalate? I'm having a real hard time imagining that because it would require that he be in a completely different frame of mind. Who knows that could be us sometime if we don't watch it!
I don't mean to be waaay too far off topic but this really resembles the main culprit when my wife and I have a conflict. Inside my head I'd make an assumption that she did something deliberately. Note that the "yelling man" started with "DIDN'T YOU KNOW" rather than "hey I'm not sure if you knew but...."
So the OP made a mistake. I too wish that mistakes never happen but they do because we can not know/do everything. (nor can we be expected to) I'd say that the man who approached the OP's vehicle yelling did something unwise and put himself at risk in a way that didn't aid in accomplishing his goal (informing about cutting in line). Unless his goal included intimidation - which really shouldn't have been part of his goal.
So now what?
It's interesting to note that either of the two people involved could have de-escalated the situation In this case it was the OP who took a step to do so - and it's a good thing he did because the other person did not seem to have enough self control to do so. The OP left his pride behind which made a difference in his response. Here's what I mean. He could have said something like "Hey man back off! It was a mistake man so chill, seriously" - while not "wrong" that would have been rude and still inflammatory in the little jabs of disrespect.
We are going to be perceived as the "aggressors" by others or the "victim" by ourselves in a confrontation and before we get a chance to sort things out having someone de-escalate is a great thing to do in the mean time. Even better to do it yourself instead of wait for the other person or the authorities to do it. Married folks you know what I mean haha. It's the secular version of "showing grace"
Something to point out:
I read a post by another forum member directing me to a webpage about "predator behavior" which suggested we be on the look out for "abnormal" behaviors.
I consider it abnormal behavior to approach a stranger's driver side window following the side of the car (and no greeting along the way). Can you remember the last time you did that to a stranger? Or the last time someone has done that to you? - it's something like "hey can I get a dollar" or "your tire is flat" - either way not a common occurrence so some wariness is expected. I wasn't there so I don't know how close he got to the car door but a component of "getting in someone's face" is intimidation due to proximity. Why not speak from a few feet away from the window? What does being right up next to someone when yelling convey? - the possibility of physical intimidation/action - shoving, striking, making the other guy flinch.. or even opening a car door. People can be extremely impulsive. - the website was a good read and I wish I could put up a link for y'all. It had other abnormal behaviors and danger areas that I didn't previously think about.
Here's a crazy thought:
What would it have taken for the man approaching the van to be the one to de-escalate? I'm having a real hard time imagining that because it would require that he be in a completely different frame of mind. Who knows that could be us sometime if we don't watch it!
I don't mean to be waaay too far off topic but this really resembles the main culprit when my wife and I have a conflict. Inside my head I'd make an assumption that she did something deliberately. Note that the "yelling man" started with "DIDN'T YOU KNOW" rather than "hey I'm not sure if you knew but...."
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bigkrackers
New member
At first it seems like the op is paranoid and over reacted but it's all about perception and what you feel are your abilities to defend yourself in a situation. If you're a physically big person you might not react the same as a smaller person would to a perceived threat. Maybe you have extensive hand to hand combat skills so size would not necessarily be a factor as opposed to someone who does not posses any defensive hand to hand skills.
I have been in very similar situations; in traffic or otherwise in my vehicle and someone is not paying attention or maybe I wasn't paying attention. I have not reacted the way the op did in his particular case but I'm a big guy with hand to hand skills so I perceive situation differently as do all of us. We all have different threat meters.
The op didn't brandish his weapon. He didn't act like a tough guy because he had a gun. He got out of a confrontation with words.
Why don't you wear your gun in a clip on holster or something? The carry setup in your vehicle is not tactically sound. The gun should be attached to you and not to your vehicle. Having the gun already in your hand, even just to get it out of site, is a potential accident waiting to happen IMHO.
I have been in very similar situations; in traffic or otherwise in my vehicle and someone is not paying attention or maybe I wasn't paying attention. I have not reacted the way the op did in his particular case but I'm a big guy with hand to hand skills so I perceive situation differently as do all of us. We all have different threat meters.
The op didn't brandish his weapon. He didn't act like a tough guy because he had a gun. He got out of a confrontation with words.
Why don't you wear your gun in a clip on holster or something? The carry setup in your vehicle is not tactically sound. The gun should be attached to you and not to your vehicle. Having the gun already in your hand, even just to get it out of site, is a potential accident waiting to happen IMHO.
Bigkracker, good point on the "gun in the holster on something." I carry iwb appendix side. Sometimes when driving for distances I may clip it to the open counsel center compartment, if you're familiar with the dash area set up of a gm cargo van. I will re evaluate this though. Thank you for posting.
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