Wildalaska
Moderator
The inability to accept rational measures like licensing can be based on a non reality grounded weltanshauung....
Tinfoil.
WildcanthappenAlaska
gun control poll
- Thread starter wayneinFL
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The inability to accept rational measures like licensing can be based on a non reality grounded weltanshauung....
Tinfoil.
WildcanthappenAlaska
If you cannot see the difference between the lawful execution of a magistrate - approved search warrant resulting in the murder of American LEOs (followed by some 40 days of negotiations before action was taken) and the genocide of people due to their religion there is no helping you, and you deserve each other.
Can't happen? Not for lack of desire:
http://www.thefiringline.com/library/quotes/antifreedom.xml
http://www.thefiringline.com/library/quotes/antifreedom.xml
DAVID NANCARROW
New member
IMO, the subject of "licensing" and "reasonable" gun laws never take into account just who is going to be running the country at any given time. What might be well and good for one administration is going to turn into a knife in our backs with a succeeding one. There is ample evidence of that already.
Gunowners are bad people if they don't compromise their rights to those who wish to take their arms. Sorry-I'm not backing up a single step, and will vote for those who promote the safe and constitutional ownership of firearms.
The founders, I think, were very wise to put the BOR into the constitution because they had suffered the whims of the King for a long time. The Bill of Rights is just that-they protect the rights of the individual from the government.
If the attack had been against the right of a free press and the 1st amendment rather than the 2nd, we would have been subjected to a constant drum beat from the press to overthrow the government in no uncertain terms.
If by some chance our country was invaded, a call to arms would be heard far and wide by those same people.
Check stories from the LA riots back in the 90's. All of a sudden, those who claimed firearms were bad sure wanted one! Those who did not have them were faced with the 14 day waiting period, and those who did have them had problems purchasing ammunition for them. Thank you very much, government. And also thank the mayor for keeping the police out of the areas where they were most needed!
What DOES it take for a wakeup call? None of us can predict the future and what it will bring. To hamstring the people into what they can defend their lives with is insane.
The bottom line is the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Nothing there about nuc's or poison gas-that arguement is pretty silly, IMO. To demand that a person get training is not a good one. Who am I to tell anyone that before they can defend their lives, they must undergo compulsory training? Is their life forefeit until they do?? I think not.
IMO, the only people who should not have firearms are people who should not be on the streets in the first place.
Waco??? What a sad chapter in our history. Koresh was a bad person-apparently was molesting some of the young people, and I feel bad for the LEO's who died.
I understand they were ordered to storm the compound but I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation of why it was done in that fashion.
I suspect those who ordered those LEO's to their deaths did not take part in the initial assault-bad leadership almost always leads to bad results.
I think it would have been wise to at least attempt an arrest on Koresh outside of the compound-the frontal assault should have been a last resort-not the first option.
We learn from our mistakes. The problem is getting those in charge to remember the lesson!
Gunowners are bad people if they don't compromise their rights to those who wish to take their arms. Sorry-I'm not backing up a single step, and will vote for those who promote the safe and constitutional ownership of firearms.
The founders, I think, were very wise to put the BOR into the constitution because they had suffered the whims of the King for a long time. The Bill of Rights is just that-they protect the rights of the individual from the government.
If the attack had been against the right of a free press and the 1st amendment rather than the 2nd, we would have been subjected to a constant drum beat from the press to overthrow the government in no uncertain terms.
If by some chance our country was invaded, a call to arms would be heard far and wide by those same people.
Check stories from the LA riots back in the 90's. All of a sudden, those who claimed firearms were bad sure wanted one! Those who did not have them were faced with the 14 day waiting period, and those who did have them had problems purchasing ammunition for them. Thank you very much, government. And also thank the mayor for keeping the police out of the areas where they were most needed!
What DOES it take for a wakeup call? None of us can predict the future and what it will bring. To hamstring the people into what they can defend their lives with is insane.
The bottom line is the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Nothing there about nuc's or poison gas-that arguement is pretty silly, IMO. To demand that a person get training is not a good one. Who am I to tell anyone that before they can defend their lives, they must undergo compulsory training? Is their life forefeit until they do?? I think not.
IMO, the only people who should not have firearms are people who should not be on the streets in the first place.
Waco??? What a sad chapter in our history. Koresh was a bad person-apparently was molesting some of the young people, and I feel bad for the LEO's who died.
I understand they were ordered to storm the compound but I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation of why it was done in that fashion.
I suspect those who ordered those LEO's to their deaths did not take part in the initial assault-bad leadership almost always leads to bad results.
I think it would have been wise to at least attempt an arrest on Koresh outside of the compound-the frontal assault should have been a last resort-not the first option.
We learn from our mistakes. The problem is getting those in charge to remember the lesson!
If a magistrate-approved search warrant alleged "harboring of slaves" or "possession of deviant literature", and the raid resulted in the murder of LEOs trying to execute the warrant, that would be a good riddance. Why is it not the same when LEOs are killed during a raid stemming from alleged firearms violations?sendec said:
,Garand Illusion
New member
I love a good debate. Too bad that some are making this so ugly.
Let's go back to what was happening ...
It was day 2 of the holdout/shootout with the Feds. Did Mrs. Weaver keep her baby safe? Heck, in a differerent forum here a guy who dared open his door and step onto his back porch while he had reason to believe a BG was in the area was slammed for his tactical "stupidity." Here is a woman who walked up to a an open door in an ACTIVE gunfight where LEO's had been shot.
Once again, and idiot parent recklessly endangering her child.
It's too bad the Weaver boy was killed. The parents are not missed.
They were Bad Guys, aka BG's on this forum, and when a BG get's a bullet we all cheer.
Let's go back to what was happening ...
It was day 2 of the holdout/shootout with the Feds. Did Mrs. Weaver keep her baby safe? Heck, in a differerent forum here a guy who dared open his door and step onto his back porch while he had reason to believe a BG was in the area was slammed for his tactical "stupidity." Here is a woman who walked up to a an open door in an ACTIVE gunfight where LEO's had been shot.
Once again, and idiot parent recklessly endangering her child.
It's too bad the Weaver boy was killed. The parents are not missed.
They were Bad Guys, aka BG's on this forum, and when a BG get's a bullet we all cheer.
Garand Illusion
New member
Well said, Sendec.
Garand Illusion
New member
For those of you who peed your pants at the mention of a federal FOID, let's just review ...
Even assuming we swept away every one of the existing gun laws, all 20,000, what would it take to ban firearms and confiscate them? The passing of a law and/or a COTUS amendment, following by seizing of firearms.
What would it take to ban firearms and confiscate them WITH an FOID? The passing of a law and/or a COTUS amendment, following by seizing of firearms.
If nothing changed, no FOID or no changes to current laws, what would it take to ban and confiscate firearms? The passing of a law and/or a COTUS amendment, following by seizing of firearms.
Hmmmmmm. Kind of sounds the same, doesn't it. Let's just review what it would take to outlaw and confiscate firearms:
So you see ... there is NO NEGATIVE effect to having a real common sense law. And suppose we did pass a law where pretty much all local laws disappeared, and in all 50 states you just needed to take some inexpensive, commmon sense training and a "shall issue" license to buy and/or carry any firearm. Sounds like a major upgrade to states like PRNJ, PRHI, PRKS, PRNB, PRNY, etc. Doesn't it?
On the positive side, accidental gun deaths, already rare, will become even more rare. The anti's will no longer be able to self righteously claim that "you need a license to drive a car in this country, but not to buy a firearm."
Such a law/country is FAR better than anything we're likely to get, even if we can keep gun grabbing democrats from taking back the white house and congress in the next 4 years.
Even assuming we swept away every one of the existing gun laws, all 20,000, what would it take to ban firearms and confiscate them? The passing of a law and/or a COTUS amendment, following by seizing of firearms.
What would it take to ban firearms and confiscate them WITH an FOID? The passing of a law and/or a COTUS amendment, following by seizing of firearms.
If nothing changed, no FOID or no changes to current laws, what would it take to ban and confiscate firearms? The passing of a law and/or a COTUS amendment, following by seizing of firearms.
Hmmmmmm. Kind of sounds the same, doesn't it. Let's just review what it would take to outlaw and confiscate firearms:
- NO GUN LAWS AT ALL: Pass law, possibly COTUS amendment, seize weapons.
- NEW FOID: Pass law, possibly COTUS amendment, seize weapons.
- NO CHANGE: Pass law, possibly COTUS amendment, seize weapons.
So you see ... there is NO NEGATIVE effect to having a real common sense law. And suppose we did pass a law where pretty much all local laws disappeared, and in all 50 states you just needed to take some inexpensive, commmon sense training and a "shall issue" license to buy and/or carry any firearm. Sounds like a major upgrade to states like PRNJ, PRHI, PRKS, PRNB, PRNY, etc. Doesn't it?
On the positive side, accidental gun deaths, already rare, will become even more rare. The anti's will no longer be able to self righteously claim that "you need a license to drive a car in this country, but not to buy a firearm."
Such a law/country is FAR better than anything we're likely to get, even if we can keep gun grabbing democrats from taking back the white house and congress in the next 4 years.
Garand Illusion
New member
No. It would be murder of LEO's doing their job and the unnecessary death of a person who may or may not be a decent individual when the LEO's send in the armored vehicle to end the situation (ever heard of one of these nuts winning? Best they can hope for is a life on the lam, rather like Osama).
In the situations we've talked about (and I do note exceptions below) a shootout accomplishes nothing. Going to court can accomplish a lot, as our legal system still works and wouldn't support such a thing.
Take the various battles fought by Hustler owner Larry Flynt, the owner of Hustler magazine. He fought the law constantly for his first amendment rights, both making wins and losing some cases. I think he even spent some time in Jail. But though he's pretty much a scummy guy, he's a hero to many people, and redefined the law for bad and good in many places. He actually has a place in legal history.
Now ... suppose he had gunned down a few cops when they came to get him. When the smoke cleared he would have just been a violent porn nut in a forgotten grave somewhwere. Perhaps some innocents would have died with him. He would have accomplished nothing except killing a few working men and getting killed himself.
Is there a time and place for taking up arms against the government? Of course. Is it the first time the cops turn up at your door and you don't agree with the reasons your there?
Hell no. That just makes for anarchy and strikes at the root of human civilization. For us to live together we need laws and people to enforce them. We also need courts to challenge those laws and their enforcement.
Only when the courts and legal system have been PROVEN, on an ongoing basis, to be absolutely corrupt and failed, do we need to go to the armed resistance.
The only people thinking those standards are currently met are living in little cabins in the woods and wearing aluminum foil hats and hearing voices telling them their losers not because they're uneducated and violent in nature, but because ZOG is holding them back.
When the LEO's shoot it out with them and take them out, the world become a little bit better place. Shooting BG's is always a good thing.
Whether they live in Waco or Ruby Ridge.
Ok lets backup a couple of steps here. I brought up Ruby Ridge in response to the arguement that complete obiedance should have been given, and if it was wrong it would be sorted out by the courts. The FBI agent shot through a door, not knowing what was on the other side. He was never repremanded, or disiplined for the act. Never admitted wrong doing (In court), and was regailed a hero for his actions.
Then there is this.
Randy at Ruby Ridge could have easily been arrested in town. He went there often. I am quite confident that David could have been arrested outside of the compound as well. So no we don't learn form our mistakes. We repeat them until people become comfortable with them. As is indicated in statements like this...
Well that line of thought just plugged the idea of "Police State" being viable, and good.
What happens if RKBA is abolished or removed. (Notice the IF)? What then? Are we going to roll over, or do we become the BG's?
Oh and last I heard even the BG's have a right to fair a trial?
The bottom line is this. Not everything the government does is right. There are allways other options, and these situations the options were not used, and it caused needless death. Even if they were wrong. So I guess the nest jumping of place from here is that we now do away with common sense, and just send out hit squads.
Then there is this.
Randy at Ruby Ridge could have easily been arrested in town. He went there often. I am quite confident that David could have been arrested outside of the compound as well. So no we don't learn form our mistakes. We repeat them until people become comfortable with them. As is indicated in statements like this...
Well that line of thought just plugged the idea of "Police State" being viable, and good.
What happens if RKBA is abolished or removed. (Notice the IF)? What then? Are we going to roll over, or do we become the BG's?
Oh and last I heard even the BG's have a right to fair a trial?
The bottom line is this. Not everything the government does is right. There are allways other options, and these situations the options were not used, and it caused needless death. Even if they were wrong. So I guess the nest jumping of place from here is that we now do away with common sense, and just send out hit squads.
It would be that, too. It would also be a tragedy for the LEOs' families, who probably weren't aware of exactly what laws their lost loved ones were enforcing.
If an adult is willing to die in a shoot-out with authorities over a clearly illegitimate search warrant, it's not my place to second-guess them. It is not my duty to put a stop to all "unnecessary death," or worry about the future of those people if they survive the encounter. Putting children in danger is monstrous, but that doesn't mean everything such people do is monstrous.
"There are allways other options, and these situations the options were not used,'
You may wanna research, or you may not, exactly how many days and hours were spent in negotiations with "Koresh". You may wanna research, or may not, how many times he said he would surrender, and he reneged. You may wanna study how many times he said he would let the kids go, and reneged.
You may wanna research, or may not, how many months the USMS spent on surveillance and intel gathering on Weaver, who seldom if ever went into town knowing that he was wanted for failing to appear on his criminal charge, instead letting his wife take the risks while he hid on the mountain.
I am constantly amazed by the need to lionize these two losers, one a sociopathic con artist who preyed on the weak-willed and the other a closet white supremacist. Y'all have funny standards for your heros.
You may wanna research, or you may not, exactly how many days and hours were spent in negotiations with "Koresh". You may wanna research, or may not, how many times he said he would surrender, and he reneged. You may wanna study how many times he said he would let the kids go, and reneged.
You may wanna research, or may not, how many months the USMS spent on surveillance and intel gathering on Weaver, who seldom if ever went into town knowing that he was wanted for failing to appear on his criminal charge, instead letting his wife take the risks while he hid on the mountain.
I am constantly amazed by the need to lionize these two losers, one a sociopathic con artist who preyed on the weak-willed and the other a closet white supremacist. Y'all have funny standards for your heros.
Gun purchase hold
Saved up, bought the Kimber I wanted, and now it's at the local FFL. I can't pick it up as it's day 2 on hold. I have never been "approved" immediately, it has always taken 24 hours to take possession of a firearm. Laws like this can make a law abiding citizen feel suspect. Do "they" think I'm a criminal? It's just not right.
Saved up, bought the Kimber I wanted, and now it's at the local FFL. I can't pick it up as it's day 2 on hold. I have never been "approved" immediately, it has always taken 24 hours to take possession of a firearm. Laws like this can make a law abiding citizen feel suspect. Do "they" think I'm a criminal? It's just not right.
In the first place, I only pointed out the other side of the coin. I did not declare them great by any means. However by your replies anyone who stands up for what they believe is a loser.
Second to label Weaver a "closet white supremacist" without knowing him is libel.
Third I never claimed they were my heros, and you have no business telling me what my standards are.
Now please debate the issue without the personal insults, or ignore the thread.
Wildalaska
Moderator
Yeah he wasnt a closet white supremecist...
He was a blatant one.
WildsuemeAlaska
One thing the gun-grabbers forget is that 'compromise' works both ways. For instance, I'm willing to compromise:
I don't think we should REQUIRE people to maintain arms, although the Second Amendment seems to hint toward it.
I don't think the government should be forced to pay for my guns.
I don't think the people who've promoted anti-gun laws should be imprisoned-only barred from public office-for violating the constitution.
See, I can compromise. Just not when 'compromise' is code for 'decide which rights you're willing to give up to pacify the liberal left today', which it usually is.
Larry
I don't think we should REQUIRE people to maintain arms, although the Second Amendment seems to hint toward it.
I don't think the government should be forced to pay for my guns.
I don't think the people who've promoted anti-gun laws should be imprisoned-only barred from public office-for violating the constitution.
See, I can compromise. Just not when 'compromise' is code for 'decide which rights you're willing to give up to pacify the liberal left today', which it usually is.
Larry
Well Randy Weaver was quoted many times as saying that "he was a white separatist", does this not meet the loose definition of a racist? Is it not fact that many white supremacist groups venerate him? Its always been puzzling why so many seem to pick him as the littel guy up against the evil goverment. I dont particularily agree with what the goverment did, but then again I didnt have to raid some nazis mountain hideout...so perhaps once again hindsight..is all to clear.
If you want to pick somebody what about like Bernard Goetz the subway vigilante? Surely there must be others that can be better examples then Jesus Junior and Nazi mountain man.
If you want to pick somebody what about like Bernard Goetz the subway vigilante? Surely there must be others that can be better examples then Jesus Junior and Nazi mountain man.
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