GRIP ANGLE real problem or individual choice?

So it is convenience.

So is it safe to say that grip angle isn't a gun problem but rather a shooter problem?
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Sure, just like with clothes that don't properly fit the person, it is the person who is at fault for not being the right size and shape to be comfortable in the clothes. :rolleyes:

The issue is one of ergonomics. Just because you can be made to make do with what is given to you does not mean that what is given to you is the best thing for you.
 
The issue is one of ergonomics. Just because you can be made to make do with what is given to you does not mean that what is given to you is the best thing for you.
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+1


I don't feel that there is any real problem with grip angles. It just doesn't make sense to me for someone to state that. I do however think that there is nothing wrong with having a personal preference on the subject. Everyone has a certain preference towards firearms, and grip angle is one of them for certain users.
 
Why is it?????

Why is it that some posters assume that those of us who don't care for the grip angle of a gun, or family of guns, are making excuses for poor shooting?

FWIW, when it comes to knocking out small holes in the center of a target, I can do quite well with, say, a Glock. As some others have noted, when using the sights, angle isn't that big a deal.

I've only competed a couple of times at GSSF, but did pretty well in the amateur division, coming in the top 30% in my first, and top 20% in my 2nd (and last), presumably against people who primarily shoot Glocks. So, I can shoot them reasonably accurately, and reasonably quickly. No excuses required.

That said, I'd have shot both courses faster with either my old P220, or my current EDC Dan Wesson CBOB. I'm pretty sure that when my BHP comes back from Novak, I'd shoot it faster on those courses, too.

Those pistols point better, for me, based on what I am used to shooting. Does it make a lot of difference? No. Does it make some difference? Yes.

Could I train out the difference? Yes, but at the cost of time and ammo. The question then becomes, am I better served by training out the advantage to level the field, or am I better served by focusing on my primary carries?

To me, the answer is to focus on my primaries.

YMMV.

Note: I don't have a problem with Glocks, and they are on my recommended list. I was very pleased with the people who ran, and the people who participated in, GSSF. The pistols don't fit me as well as some others do, but they are still a good brand.
 
Just sit there and make a fist and see how easy it is to change the angle of the gripping fingers.
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Thats not in dispute. Its what "you" do without thinking when you poke your hand out and dont change anything that decides. You can change it to anywhere you like "after", but at that moment in time, its basically your "natural point of aim", like in rifle shooting.
 
There is a vast difference between RAPID draw and fire vs deliberate draw and fire .Ergonomics does make a difference .
Face the target , close your eyes , draw and point the pistol with muscles locked.Open your eyes -- the sights will be very close to centered on the target if the gun fits. In combat only small adjustments should be necessary to get exact center.
For those who don't believe in ergonomics you should be able to get right on the target in this test and in RAPID draw and fire be right on independant of 1911 [flat or curved mainspring housing] or a Ruger 22 standard vs 45 style grip.
There is a reason that more and more makers are supplying interchangeble grip panels !
 
Grip Angle vs. Muzzle Flip

Grip angle vs. Muzzle flip

I too have owned quite a few weapons. First I would say that John M. Browning was way ahead of his time. I think most people that are into handguns would agree with me on that. One of the best features of the 1911 is it’s “grip angle.” I don’t know all the history about how he came up with the angle but I believe it is a natural and relaxed angle for most humans. I believe that if you take a new shooter and ask him/her to close their eyes and point the weapon at the target. They would be closer to “on target” with a 1911 “grip angle” than most other weapons outside of this angle. However, there is a sacrifice to this grip angle. It is a higher “center bore axis.” When I first was into handguns I honestly didn’t care for the Glocks. But it wasn’t necessarily because of the grip angle. It was because of other items. It was plastic and it had a strange trigger to me. I was too new to shooting to understand “grip angle.” I owned an H&K USP .40, a Browning High-Power 9mm, a Sig Saur p229 .40, a couple of Para Ordinances, a Colt Delta Elite 10mm, and a Glock 22 .40. I also carried the Berretta M9 for 2 years in the Marines. I owned other pistols but these would be at the top as far as my favorites go. The weapons that I owned I had them at the same time for approximately 15 years. As my shooting progressed I began to notice something about that Glock 22. When shooting rapid fire or controlled pairs I was considerably quicker with my follow up shots with that Glock then any other weapon. At the time I didn’t know why. This is when I began to really like my Glock. It started going to the range with me more and more. I started getting use to the trigger and the fact that it was plastic. In fact it didn’t bother me anymore. My other weapons would stay in the safe while I’m at the range. The Glock was light and fast. About this time I learned how important muscle memory is during combat. I enjoyed owning all these different platforms but decided that I should narrow my selection so that I can concentrate on one platform and further develop my muscle memory. So I decided one day that I would sell these other fine pistols for more Glocks and other rifles. It wasn’t till I was on this forum that I really started to look at “grip angle”. I think I understand the big difference between Glocks and other weapons I had at that time. It’s the low “center bore axis.” I put some pictures below trying to show “grip angle” vs. lower “center bore axis.” Keep in mind these pictures are not to the same scale. I tried to do my best. I placed a red line through the bore axis and also from the middle of the trigger to the top of the grip where the web of your hand sits. As you can see, during recoil the Glock will drive the weapon into your hands because of the “grip angle.” This helps cancel out muzzle flip. Keep in mind also that the upper is mostly steel while the lower is mostly plastic. I never weighed the difference between the lower receiver and the upper slide – barrel. But the difference in weight is substantial. To have a metal slide operate on a plastic lower you would think that the “felt” recoil would be much greater, but in my experience it is not. The reason has to be because of the Glock “grip angle.” For me, the Glock is now a natural pointer because I’m use to it’s grip angle. Now I’m not saying that the Glock is the ultimate weapon. I’m surely not saying it should be every ones weapon. I’m just trying to understand why I like it so much when I’ve owned so many fine pistols. I shoot mostly Glocks now but truthfully if you handed me any of these pistols in this picture I would feel very well armed.


Grip%20Angle.jpg
 
Grip angle is a problem when

Grip angle is a problem when you shoot without the sights, natural pointing! One of the first Smith & Wessons I was issued, the first stainless 9mm did not point dead on for me, it was always low. I always qualified high with as I was using my sights then, however, when up close at 7 yards or less it shot low during my point shooting. The grip on that one, and the first large capacity Smith in 9mm that came out in the 70s, I cannot remember the model at the moment...

This was not the case with my Beretta 92, 1911, S&W 19, S&W M&P .40, and many more. I believe grip angle is not even recognized by most folks because they don't shoot much from the hip or point shoot without using sights, and if they did they blamed themselves for shooting off a bit!
 
My question.....Is grip angle a problem or more of an inconvience?

Bonus question....When did grip angle become a talking point?
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Grip angle is not the deciding factor in any gun purchase.

Is it something I consider? Yes, but not so much for pointability as for recoil control.

First, I like the "steeper" angle of a Glock, since I grew up shooting a Colt Woodsman, a Ruger MK series, and so forth. They're very similar. But...

The steeper grip angle is also better (for me) for controlling muzzle flip. A squared off grip will cause a bit more muzzle flip than a steeper angled grip, all else being equal. IOW, a Glock pistol will put the recoil more into the web of your hand, driving straight back, while a lesser angle will put recoil all across the palm area, and the muzzle will rise easier.

And this is true of rifles as well as handguns. A straight stocked rifle will put more recoil into the shoulder of the shooter, causing more felt recoil, but less muzzle rise. A stock that drops down a bit, much like the old doubles or many shotguns do will put less recoil into the shoulder, but will cause the muzzle to rise more.

And in truth, it's a matter of preference. I prefer a bit of drop in the stock on a hard kicking rifle, but not so much that muzzle rise becomes an issue. On handguns that don't kick any harder than those chambered for today's common semi-auto cartridges, I prefer a steeper grip to allow for better muzzle control when firing.

I first saw "grip angle" mentioned as a "problem" here at THL. It's spread to other boards, I suppose, but I'm really not sure when or where it originated.

Daryl
 
Yes, grip angle is a factor ....and its a big factor...or the gun won't be pointing on target as you come up out of a holster and on target ....or at least it won't come up level, and on target naturally ....

Is it a common Glock bashing issue ...sure .../ but then that's part of why Glock went to the Gen 4's too ....

There are a lot of factors in selecting a gun ....width, weight, grip angle, feel of trigger break, feel of reset, sights, fit, finish, caliber, etc .... Why would anyone ignore any one of them ?

I sure don't pick a gun based on what the govt buys / or the local police dept for that matter either ....that's often primarily about price ...( and price is important / but it isn't in my top 5 criteria on picking a gun ) ....
 
When I used to practice 3x per week, I could close my eyes, draw, and be on a 10in target at 30yds. If I switched between the 1911 and G34, it would throw that off by several feet. So, yes, it can make a difference. After training on one pistol, all my first reaction aiming was off on the other. That costs time, when you have to re-aim on the draw!
 
WildBill45 says:
I believe grip angle is not even recognized by most folks because they don't shoot much from the hip or point shoot without using sights
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While I would agree with this I would also say those same people don't typically shoot fast pairs or rapid fire. This is where the grip angle comes into effect too.
For me the glock "grip angle" doesn't show its strong points untill you do rapid fire or fast strings. Thats when it starts to shine for me. If you go to the range and shoot one shot at a time nice and easy then you'll never see the true potential of a steeper grip angle. Atleast that's the way it was for me.

BigJimP
Yes, grip angle is a factor ....and its a big factor...or the gun won't be pointing on target as you come up out of a holster and on target ....or at least it won't come up level, and on target naturally ....
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I don't know that I totaly agree with this. I think the steeper grip angle is something you can get use to. A lot of people don't want to have to "get use" to a steeper grip angle because it is slightly different then thier natural point of aim. As I stated in my earlier post I sold most of my other defensive handguns and went to Glocks. Since I shoot them mostly they do point natural for me. You can learn a different grip angle, but you can't learn less felt recoil.
 
I read the link in Wikipedia but didn't see where it stated that they were wanting to get rid of the 1911 because of the lousy performance and grip angle. Did I miss it?
 
My question.....Is grip angle a problem or more of an inconvience?
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Doesn't have to be either. You can adapt to any grip angle. They were all developed because some one thought them to be ergonomically superior.

Glocks don't "point" for me as well as a Sig. However, if you check out the ergonomics, the wrist is actually pointed down more in line with the rest of the arm. That would make it ergonomically superior in the respect. It's just that other guns don't require the wrist to be down that much. The Detective Special is another gun the requires a lowered wrist. Doesn't feel right compared to the S&W and it's very easy to shoot high unless you practice with it.

Not sure what happens when shooting a Sig and then shooting a Glock without first firing some rounds to adapt.

I know that with a 1911, there's enough memory synchronized with the feel of the gun to know I have to wipe of the safety to fire--it's automatic with no adjustment period required. I suspect something similar happens when shooting the Glock immediately after another gun that feels differently.
 
I took a class by a police trainer from another country. He taught no sights. He did two things before the class, taped your sights over with electrical tape and examined your hand and the gun. He said if the grip fit or was too small no problem, but if it was two big his technique wouldn't work. Didn't matter what type of firearm you were using, (glocks & sigs mostly what I saw.) He didn't say anything about your grip angle.

The bore height in reference to you grip and the angle do make a difference with recoil and, some say, quick instinctive shooting. There is probably something to it. I'm more use to the classic grip angle myself.

Glock Compact. That is a very good illustration. The glock angle looks perfectly in line with the high point on the web of your hand. Good point of control. I always thought it had more to do with the bore height.
 
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I sure don't pick a gun based on what the govt buys / or the local police dept for that matter either ....that's often primarily about price ...( and price is important / but it isn't in my top 5 criteria on picking a gun ) ....
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About price????? So how many departments are carrying HiPoints? For someone new to firearms selecting a handgun based on what LE or Military forces use is a good way to guarantee getting something rugged and reliable. Both are in my top 5 criteria.
 
Grip Angle is pure BS.
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You cant simply tell people what they are going to like or not like.. People dont buy cars because its one color or another or the seat didn't feel right or whatever.

Nor can you simply wish it away under the heading that were all bad shooters because we dont like the gun you happen to like.

Seriously I dont like or care for glocks but I have reasons for it. Its not simply about one brand or another. My reasons are just that and although others might feel differently it is what it is..

Buy what you will and enjoy it. Im not here bashing glocks to just to bash glocks, I am giving my reasons. Im not being critical of others for liking it, its simply not for me.
 
The US Military was looking to get rid of the 1911 right after WWII because of the lousy performance and grip angle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_&_Wesson_Model_39

So don't try and sell me that BS about 1911 great grip angle. Grip Angle is a Glock Bash and that's all it is.
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How are you getting anything related to a negative opinion of the 1911's grip angle from that article. That's BS. Seeing that the military still uses the 1911 to this day, it's hard to take you seriously. Maybe back it up with something other than the fact that the military was having trials for a new pistol, that never produced a change. It's a heckuva leap.

I don't get why people say that talking about the grip angle is Glock bashing, or that it is a figment of their imagination. The latter being the strangest of the arguments. Some people on these forums really want to shout down anyone that says the grip angle on a Glock is not the right one for them.

I think the reality is that the grip angles are different and therefore one can be preferred over the other. That is without question a personal choice. People can make all the supposed scientific arguments they want. It comes down to what works. i tend to notice the difference when I switch back and forth between my 1911 and my Glock. It's a bit like noticing the difference in the clutch of your car after you've been driving a rental, or a friend's. Even though it's your car, it feels strange because you got used to something else. But then you get used to it again in all of 15 minutes.

dont understand how people are even arguing about the difference of the grip angle. It exists. You either like it, or don't. Get over it.
 
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The US Military was looking to get rid of the 1911 right after WWII because of the lousy performance and grip angle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_&_Wesson_Model_39

So don't try and sell me that BS about 1911 great grip angle. Grip Angle is a Glock Bash and that's all it is.
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While the Model 39 was used in the 49 Service Pistol Trials and the 39-2 used in the 1954 Service Pistol Trials, there is no mention that the purpose of the trials was to replace the 1911 because of grip angle.
 
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