GRIP ANGLE real problem or individual choice?

T

threegun

Moderator
I've been shooting for decades. I've gone through many different platforms without ill effect. Guns like 1911's, beretta 92, browning hp, and finally Glock. So you can imagine my surprise when I was told that grip angle was a problem......WHAT????? This can't be since the guns in my past all pointed well yet have different grip angles. Well come to find out our hands can and will adjust to any grip angle in short order. This IMO makes it impossible for grip angle to be a problem.

My question.....Is grip angle a problem or more of an inconvience?

Bonus question....When did grip angle become a talking point?
 
IMO grip angle (within reason) is not a problem for deliberate aimed fire. Where I think the problem arises is if you are conditioned to one angle and shoot at speed or under stress with a gun having a different angle, your shots may tend to go high or low. Either that or your speed is affected by having to consciously "force" the sights into alignment.

I've carried a variety of guns through the years with a variety of grip styles and angles. At present I can get on target faster and stay on target in a rapid fire string better with my Glock than my 1911 or revolvers. That only makes sense, the Glock has been my duty weapon for 16 years and I've handled and shot it much more than the others. If another handgun was my primary, I'd probably be quicker with it.
 
This can't be since the guns in my past all pointed well yet have different grip angles. Well come to find out our hands can and will adjust to any grip angle in short order. This IMO makes it impossible for grip angle to be a problem.
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I completely agree. Somehow grip angle has never been a problem for my majic hands.
I don't think grip angle is the problem when a gun doesn't point well. It's the sum of a lot of little things - basically, just a poor ergonomic design.
 
IMO grip angle (within reason) is not a problem for deliberate aimed fire. Where I think the problem arises is if you are conditioned to one angle and shoot at speed or under stress with a gun having a different angle, your shots may tend to go high or low. Either that or your speed is affected by having to consciously "force" the sights into alignment.
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I think this pretty much sums it up. When you use one or the other more or less exclusively, your subconscious/muscle memory ingrain your "point" or presentation and when something different is there, your grip is still the same. The angle difference between the barrel and grip shows up on the target.

Its not as bad when you use the sights, if youre tracking the front sight, and not just counting on muscle memory sight aliment as the gun comes up. If you track the front sight, your brain takes care of it. If youre expecting to see a sight picture because you present the gun the same way every time, youre not likely to see one.
 
Its certainly possible to shoot a pistol of almost any design. However you take a gun like a glock and its a bit different and for some like myself a overall minus not a plus for ownership.

There is the science of ergonomics which predicts what will fit people generally better and get a generally more positive response to a particular design. How much of ergonomics has been applied to a particular brand I dont know, but I know what feels natural in my hands.

I think a couple of brands sell not so much on how good they feel or even how well they shoot, its simply price driving the purchase along with the idea that this group or that group carries it that drive purchases over any sort of ergo consideration.

How many people buy underpowered, boxy, small cars for the same reason?

Still grip angle is important and if your adjusting to the pistol rather than it being natural well then I guess its costing more than money.

Thats the thing about this nation... we have a lot of choices at all different price points and each with its own features or lack of features. You can buy the near featureless brands hyped as whatever supposedly new generation that hasn't evolved since the 1980s or you can buy state of the art or anywhere in between as your wallet and personality desires. Shoot what amounts to a Yugo or shoot what amounts to a Ferrari, its all out there to enjoy. :)
 
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So you can imagine my surprise when I was told that grip angle was a problem......WHAT????? This can't be since the guns in my past all pointed well yet have different grip angles. Well come to find out our hands can and will adjust to any grip angle in short order. This IMO makes it impossible for grip angle to be a problem.
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If all your guns are good pointers as you say, then grip angle isn't a problem for you. Be happy. The guns that folks find NOT to be good pointers are quite often guns that have a grip angle the shooter does not like or does not feel natural.

Guns don't point equally well for all people. One of the neat tests you can do is to be have eyes closed and then pickup or draw a (unloaded) pistol and point it down range like you were would do for sighted fire. Open your eyes. Are the sights properly aligned to your view or is the front sight higher or lower than the rear sight? This test actually works a little better for newbie shooters who are looking for a gun that best coincides with their natural hand positioning on the gun.

Sure, we have the ability to adjust our grip and to train ourselves to adjust our grip so that it becomes second nature, but why should a shooter have to adjust to the gun? Would it not be better if the gun simply fit the shooter's own parameters instead of the shooter having to adjust to the gun?

I have found that a lot of first time shooters find the Luger to be a better match for them than many other guns.

My question.....Is grip angle a problem or more of an inconvience?
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Being a problem and inconvenience are not mutually exclusive. If grip angle hinders your ability to shoot well, then it is a problem.

Bonus question....When did grip angle become a talking point?
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I don't know about talking points, but grip angles became an issue with the earliest guns that were given grips so as to make them easier hold the gun and aim it at the opposition.

In looking at some of Browning's prototypes and then the finished products, several of the prototypes have vertical grips, but the finished guns have the grip canted several degrees.
 
I think a couple of brands sell not so much on how good they feel or even how well they shoot, its simply price driving the purchase along with the idea that this group or that group carries it that drive purchases over any sort of ergo consideration.
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I have personally been guilty of purchasing a firearm partially due to what group carries it. As I see it if it is rugged and reliable enough for our military then I can be assured that it will be for me.

If the firearm fit in my hand and I could reach (small hands) the controls and it passed my accuracy, reliability, durability standards I would run with it. Never even thought about grip angle. They always pointed were they needed to point. I even shot competitively with several different platforms and performed well with all.

My gripe over the grip angle issue stems from guys who continuously bad mouth and almost single out Glock as having the epitome of what a problem grip angle would be.
 
One of the neat tests you can do is to be have eyes closed and then pickup or draw a (unloaded) pistol and point it down range like you were would do for sighted fire. Open your eyes. Are the sights properly aligned to your view or is the front sight higher or lower than the rear sight? This test actually works a little better for newbie shooters who are looking for a gun that best coincides with their natural hand positioning on the gun.
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Perform this test on day one and then again on day fourteen.

Sure, we have the ability to adjust our grip and to train ourselves to adjust our grip so that it becomes second nature, but why should a shooter have to adjust to the gun? Would it not be better if the gun simply fit the shooter's own parameters instead of the shooter having to adjust to the gun?
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So it is convenience.

So is it safe to say that grip angle isn't a gun problem but rather a shooter problem?
 
It is neither a 'problem' nor an individual choice. It is simply a matter of what works best for the individual.
 
Do you feel people are criticizing the grip angle because it is different or because its a glock?

For myself I truly dont like the way the glock feels in my hand not because its a glock but because for my hand its just not natural. I wont kid you I dont care for glocks but I have reasons beyond it being a glock.

The bottom line for me is how does it feel and what does any gun offer that I like. If I found a glock that felt good and had the features and trigger I liked I would certainly buy one.

I also think that glock suffers from a overly vocal fan base who as often as not seem to feel it is superior to everything else. Yes, I know probably every brand has these but glock seems to have more owners who are vocal about it.

Glocks claim of "perfection" is in many ways its biggest advertising liability to some.

In regards to your post here though I think glock becomes the center of the poor angled grip thing because glocks are everywhere and a lot of people agree that it just doesnt feel as natural.

Anyone can claim any gun is better than whatever but how something feels in ones hand is very subjective and not something likeley to be overcome by a debate...
 
If anything I'm hyper-sensitive to how a gun feels in the hand and it's "natural pointing ability". I've gone all the way to the peak gun type in that category, the Colt SAA-type (Ruger New Vaquero) and even there, shaved the grip panels slightly and swapped to make it feel *exactly* right.

I know full well we can adapt to anything, Gluck included. ("Gluck" equals "Glock" plus "yuck" :).) But I question whether or not those adaptations will remain fully intact once the firing range becomes two directional.

I suspect they might not.

I've decided to adapt myself to one gun that fits me to a "T", that I've been shooting and modifying since 2005. Not a hard choice because I'm low on cash :).
 
...but how something feels in ones hand is very subjective...
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Yes and no. The grip aspect is really something more than what someone feels, it is mechanical, and you do have to adapt to it if it isnt natural to you.

What is natural could also be subjective I suppose. If all you knew were guns with a Glock grip angle, or a 1911's grip angle, most other things would "feel" off to you, at least until you spent some time with them. Once you do, the process seems to revert pretty quickly.

Up until a few years ago, most of my pistols grips had an angle more in line with the majority of guns out there, like 1911's, SIG's, HP's, etc. and the Glocks felt off and usually pointed high when pointed naturally. These days I carry a Glock, and most of my practice is done with one, and my other guns now feel off and point low when pointed naturally.

Ive come to the conclusion that if youre going to carry something, pick one type and stick to it. Usually not to much of an issue with most it seems, especially with all the bashing one way or the other. Some of us shoot both, and I think its those who do, need to be more specific as to what gets the most attention to ingrain the natural response for whats most likely to be used and along. If you hate one or the other, it really doenst matter, but it doesnt hurt to have experience with them all, just in case you might need to use one.

I still sweep that silly 1911 safety off on my Glocks and SIG's when drawing them, even though its not there. :)
 
I also think that glock suffers from a overly vocal fan base who as often as not seem to feel it is superior to everything else. Yes, I know probably every brand has these but glock seems to have more owners who are vocal about it.
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They are a bigger portion of the market so it would stand to reason that there would be more koolaid drinkers as well.

Old timer Glock guys like me have been defending negative attacks for decades. From the Tupperware days to the currant grip angle garbage. I don't even know why I care LOL. I think for me its the silliness of the attacks.
 
I know full well we can adapt to anything, Gluck included. ("Gluck" equals "Glock" plus "yuck" .) But I question whether or not those adaptations will remain fully intact once the firing range becomes two directional.
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You don't like Glock so gotta get that little bash in their. Why is it necessary in your mind to get that bash in? Has to be a reason for it.

Oh and I assure you that once you have adapted multi dimensional shooting is no problem even with the Gluck.
 
I can follow discussions about grip angle as long as the expressions are ones of personal preference, as they have been in this thread. My eyes start to glaze over when people start talking adamantly about "right" and "wrong" grip angles because they are essentially only saying that what is comfortable for them should be universal - kind of a grip-angle bigotry. What is good and right is very frequently merely what a writer is most accustomed to. The very fact that different pistols with different grip angles are each selling well and each have their defenders would seem to indicate that it is wise to have different options on the market.
 
Grip angle is a BS talking point to bash Glocks.
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It really isnt. Well, I take that back, it is, if thats "the reason", but there is a definite difference in how one versus the others points, especially if youre on one side of the fence from the other and switch guns.

At that point, its just trivial whining, one way or the other, and something to bitch about. Swap guns, and spend a short amount of time using the other, and it usually all goes away, but then, just in the other direction.

The main reason these days most of what I use and carry are Glocks, is because SIG has priced themselves out of my market. The reason I was using and carrying SIG's, was because I got sick and tired of dealing with all the different 1911 dramas. I actually had a bad experience with Glocks back in the mid 80's, and was a true "hater" for a long time. These days, you'd be hard pressed to get me to switch back now.

I do still pay for it though, every time I pick up my Commander or one of my SIG's and try and point shoot a target. :)
 
"right" and "wrong" grip angles
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Right and wrong, is only whats right or wrong to each of us. Once you find yours, screw the other guy, whats he know.

Now if youre forced to use something you dont like (like an agency/military issue requirement), guess what, youre going to learn to like it, and you well may end up being a convert when its all said and done, especially if its all you get to shoot.

It really doenst take long to settle in with one or the other, its the switching back and forth that really screws with you, as you now have to make a decision, one of which is usually better and instantly obvious to you.

Now to totally throw out and screw up the theory of that last part, add "to what youre "currently" used to", and it all starts over again. :)
 
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