Gov/public school: social engineering?

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If you have to evade a clear question in order to maintain your position, the position merits re-evaluation.


So, when a male whose sole desires and conduct are exclusively heterosexual goes to prison and is brutally gang raped, thereafter exhibiting desires and conduct that are homosexual, was he a born homosexual?
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I wasn't evading the question, I was clarifying my original statement. No, I did not mean that people come out of the womb engaging in sexual conduct. :rolleyes: But my original statement - that are born gay just like they are born blonde or brunette - stands.

In the situation you mentioned he incurred psychological trauma from being sexually assaulted, not from it being a homosexual experience.

Sexual preference and gender identity can change throughout the course of ones lifespan just like one's natural hair color can change throughout the course of one's lifespan. But just because a baby was born blonde and later ends up being brunette does not mean he chose to be a brunette. In the example you mentioned the individual is still not choosing to be homosexual; his change in sexual preference is due to psychological trauma which is still a biological cause.

The bottom line remains that sexual preference is not a choice. It is biological, just like many other traits, and thus children should be taught not to discriminate against those who were born different or became different through no choice of their own.

While I generally believe that states should have ultimate control over their own educational policies I'm wary of allowing any state to encourage or perpetuate such discrimination against someone due to their biology. This would be a case in which federal oversight would be fully justified in making sure that all the people of this land are treated equally.
 
Likewise, there's gay people (and heterosexuals for that matter) who have perfectly ordinary lifestyles, and then there's others living the dissolute, bareback-bathhouse-hookup lifestyle. There's an obvious difference, and it doesn't have much to do with sexual orientation.
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Quite true. However no one is suggested that said "lifestyle" - nor the equally salacious lifestyles of heterosexuals - be taught to children. Two males adopting a child together is not part of that lifestyle you mentioned.
 
But just because a baby was born blonde and later ends up being brunette does not mean he chose to be a brunette.
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No ,you're right, but the person does not have control over their hair like they do their sexual preference. I think hair changing colors (with the exception of using products to do it) is a natural thing that I have no control over, whereas, being a homosexual and sleeping with the same gender require much more of a committment than just waking up one day with brown hair and claiming I was born that way.
 
That's reasonable, but it allows us to dispose of the fiction that engaging in homosexual conduct is the same as being born black.
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Engaging in homosexual conduct is no more or less a biological issue than engaging in heterosexual conduct. One's sexual preference, however, is "the same" as being born black in the sense that it's a biological factor that one has no control over.
 
I don't believe there is scientific consensus that people are born gay. Are you claiming there is consensus on this issue? Or are you simply noting that a faction of scientists believe there is a genetic component?
 
No ,you're right, but the person does not have control over their hair like they do their sexual preference.
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People do not have control over their sexual preference.
I don't believe there is scientific consensus that people are born gay. Are you claiming there is consensus on this issue? Or are you simply noting that a faction of scientists believe there is a genetic component?
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There is scientific consensus that sexual preference is a biological factor and in no way a conscious decision.

Gender identity and sexual preference are both most likely a sliding scale and can vary throughout one's life. However both are biological in nature, not choices.
 
Well I would need to see proof of that Redworm. Can you give me a reference? I am an MD, and have never heard that, but sexual matters are not my specialty. Can you show me a reference to where there is a consensus opinion that sexual preference is completely involuntary?

Back to the question at hand though, why do we need to introduce elementary school children to these concepts at such an early age? They don't even know about sex, let alone gay sex.
 
And some may have a natural desire to drink, smoke or drive over the speed limit. This is not a reason to regard the conduct as equivalent to race, or encourage children to think of it as normal.
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No, no one has a "natural desire" to do such things. Those are all actions that require societal influences and external forces. Sexual preference is natural, it would exist with or without civilization and society. It would exist if we were not intelligent, sapient creatures as it does in many other species. The things you listed are not "natural" in any way.
 
Redworm, there certainly is a scientific belief that some people have an inherent tendency toward addiction. There probably is a genetic component to this, and I don't see how you can deny it.
 
No ,you're right, but the person does not have control over their hair like they do their sexual preference. I think hair changing colors (with the exception of using products to do it) is a natural thing that I have no control over, whereas, being a homosexual and sleeping with the same gender require much more of a committment than just waking up one day with brown hair and claiming I was born that way.
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Well, Sir, if youre so absolutely sure that sexual orientation is a choice, will you please tell us at at what age you chose to be hetrosexual, and why you chose this?
 
I would like to see the evidence that people are born gay...with those tendancies, with the desire to be with the same sex. Things like a study of 100 gay people found that they were born that way does not work either. Saying that a person was born gay, whether it be genetic, predisposed, or completely random is nonsense. Every scientist you could find that would support that, I could find more than one to support that there is no evidence to suggest that.
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I doubt that. I'm sure you could find a few sprinkled around that try to claim sexuality is a choice just like you'd find a few so-called "scientists" trying to claim that the earth was only 6000 years old.
Well I would need to see proof of that Redworm. Can you give me a reference? I am an MD, and have never heard that, but sexual matters are not my specialty. Can you show me a reference to where there is a consensus opinion that sexual preference is genetically controlled?
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Just a sampling. Shouldn't be hard to find more with pubmed access.

http://www.dafml.unito.it/anatomy/panzica/pubblicazioni/pdf/1995PanzicaJEI.pdf
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040309073256.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7955323?dopt=Abstract

The scientific consensus is that sexual preference is a biological matter, not a conscious choice.

Let's not forget the fact that homosexuality has been observed in many species of animals.



So in returning to the legal issues of the matter, something like this does justify at the very least state level interference. While federal interference is not appealing if there's a state out there that would try to tell its students that homosexuality is unnatural and immoral it would need to be stopped. The education of children outweighs the rights of people to discriminate based on biology.
 
The line is straight out of the Catholic gay brainwashing play book... "Just because you have a desire doesn't mean God agrees you should embrace it."
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Musketeer - nobody is forced to be Catholic anymore, these days.

It's a simple fact that the Bible strongly, unambiguously condemns male homosexual sex. To describe teaching the plain text of the Bible as "brainwashing" is just as derisive as the tendency of some people to describe "SF Pride" tranny/leather/bdsm as representative of the "gay lifestyle."

Catholics (and Jews) are people too.
 
No, no one has a "natural desire" to do such things. Those are all actions that require societal influences and external forces. Sexual preference is natural, it would exist with or without civilization and society.
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I think he was just being polite and trying to avoid mentioning the evidently innate sexual preference that some people have for small children, since that's a very touchy subject.
 
Redworm, I don't think your references are representative of a consensus opinon.
A consensus would in this case be a general statement by the scientific/medical community that sexual preference is involuntary.

For example, I can find a consensus opinion that the correct treatment for appendicitis is appendectomy. Everyone in mainstream medicine would agree with this.

Can you provide that?
 
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If you have to evade a clear question in order to maintain your position, the position merits re-evaluation.


So, when a male whose sole desires and conduct are exclusively heterosexual goes to prison and is brutally gang raped, thereafter exhibiting desires and conduct that are homosexual, was he a born homosexual?

I wasn't evading the question, ...
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Of course you were. Let's be frank. You didn't like the answer to the question I posed, so you answered the question you wanted to answer. That is an evasion.

No, I did not mean that people come out of the womb engaging in sexual conduct.
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Then the non-evasive answer to my question is "No", not "yes".

In the situation you mentioned he incurred psychological trauma from being sexually assaulted, not from it being a homosexual experience.
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So a homosexual sexual assault is not a homosexual experience?

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And some may have a natural desire to drink, smoke or drive over the speed limit. This is not a reason to regard the conduct as equivalent to race, or encourage children to think of it as normal.

No, no one has a "natural desire" to do such things. Those are all actions that require societal influences and external forces. Sexual preference is natural, it would exist with or without civilization and society. It would exist if we were not intelligent, sapient creatures as it does in many other species. The things you listed are not "natural" in any way.
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I don't think that arguing what is "natural" works for your position. First, this inevitably leads to the teleology of sex, which is reproductive. Second, by this measure, all abnormal sexuality is "natural". Third, though you assert that homosexuality would be natural even in the absence of civilisation or society, you've little chance of finding an example to prove it.

Finally, you still would not be meeting the issue involved in teaching children what they should or should not do, as opposed to "be". People are responsible for their conscious acts, even those toward which they may be predisposed. Again, race is a poor analogue, because no one is responsible for choosing his race. Teaching children that abnoraml sexual conduct is to be accepted as if it were normal is a moral, ethical and philosophical matter that cannot be dismissed by facile reference to what may be natural.
 
Another point against the "it's natural to me so it should be accepted as a norm" argument is that every other sexually diverse person can use the same argument. What about bisexuals? When do we teach the kids that's normal and should be accepted?

The pro-gay arguments always dismiss anything that shows any degree of choice, like the identical twins or ex-gays. Their point of view never counts. Yet when you ask for the physical cause we get "it's too complex for that" answers. It could have an element of genetic predisposition but you can't rule out environmental factors. And teaching kids that early on will absolutely be a major environmental factor.
 
There probably is a genetic component to this, and I don't see how you can deny it.
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I'm not a doctor, but I am a biologist.

A genetic component would disappear unless the carrier was at least willing to turn his or her nose up and have heterosexual sex.
 
will you please tell us at at what age you chose to be hetrosexual, and why you chose this?
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Hmmm...sure no prob...I think I was about 12, going through puberty when I started noticing girls...from then on I have been looking ever since. That was serious, I can pinpoint mine, how about you? I am not against the lifestyle, but I am against blaming something homosexuals choose to do on biology, thats a BS excuse that cannot be proven.
 
Redworm, I don't think your references are representative of a consensus opinon.
A consensus would in this case be a general statement by the scientific/medical community that sexual preference is involuntary.

For example, I can find a consensus opinion that the correct treatment for appendicitis is appendectomy. Everyone in mainstream medicine would agree with this.

Can you provide that?
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The scientific community as a whole does not hold press conferences to say "hey guys, this is what we think". A scientific consensus is when the vast majority of research points to a single set of related and similar conclusions.

A diagnosis and subsequent plan of care is not the same as a scientific consensus.
 
Is it possible to choose to be gay? Sure it is. but those people who make the choice to be gay uasually arent happy with their decision. They most likely become the "x-gay" folks that yall keep refering to. I cant imagine anyone forcing themself to love something or someone that seems completely abnormal. I think its even less likeley that they'd stick with the decision. Only those that are born gay, or become gay due to factors beyond their control are going to be happy that way, and stay that way.

Its possible to "act gay" just like its possible to act black, white, weathy, patriotic, or even dumb. But acting and being are two different things.

All this arguing is absolutely silly. Let me give you a challange. If youre so sure that being gay is a choice, then try it. Walk a mile in my shoes. I challange anyone here who is sure homosexuality is a choice to actually CHOOSE to be sexually attracted to the same sex for the next 24 hours. If any of you can sucessfully do this, and be comfortable with doing it, I'll consede to you that sexuality is a choice.
 
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