Gov/public school: social engineering?

[Musketeer]

So, when a male whose sole desires and conduct are exclusively heterosexual goes to prison and is brutally gang raped, thereafter exhibiting desires and conduct that are homosexual, was he a born homosexual?

No, he is mentally scarred from a violent sexual assault. When a woman who is normally not promiscuous suddenly has one one night stand after another after being raped is she a slut? No, she was sexually assaulted and is suffering from mental trauma.

You cannot make any claims as to choice or biology in behavior when the subject has been through such a horrific experience. There are other factors at work.

 

[zukiphile]

So, if we know that homosexual conduct can sometimes result from mental trauma, it would seem that the desire for it is not always an inherited trait.

 

[Musketeer]

Again I must ask, how many of the people here who claim the majority of gays have chosen their lifestyle, not been born with it, actually know gay people. I am not talking about, "yes, Bob down in accounting is gay" but "yes, I have a family member or close friend who is gay. I know a gay couple who have been together for 30 years, etc."?

I bet not many.

 

[zukiphile]

Again I must ask, how many of the people here who claim the majority of gays have chosen their lifestyle, not been born with it, actually know gay people. I am not talking about, "yes, Bob down in accounting is gay" but "yes, I have a family member or close friend who is gay. I know a gay couple who have been together for 30 years, etc."?

I bet not many.

I am not confident that knowing "gay" people lends a person any expertise. I know quite a few, mostly lesbians, a couple of whom I have over for Christmas with my family. I've done work for homosexual couples to straighten out, no pun, their domestic arrangements.

I'm not sure how that would bear on the topic though.

 

[mvpel]

There's a difference between "lifestyle" and "attraction."

Obviously, my friend Ralph didn't "choose" his attraction to members of the same sex any more than I "chose" my attraction to members of the opposite sex.

But what actions you take as a result of that attraction are what constitutes one's "lifestyle."

Drug addicts might be born with an innate tendency towards drug addiction, but that doesn't mean that anyone ought to be shamed into celebrating or applauding a dissolute junkie lifestyle, or say that they have no choice in being a dissolute junkie. Society certainly punishes them as if they do have a choice.

Likewise, there's gay people (and heterosexuals for that matter) who have perfectly ordinary lifestyles, and then there's others living the dissolute, bareback-bathhouse-hookup lifestyle. There's an obvious difference, and it doesn't have much to do with sexual orientation.

 

[Musketeer]

So, if we know that homosexual conduct can sometimes result from mental trauma, it would seem that the desire for it is not always an inherited trait.

Anything dealing with human behavior is always a combination of cultural effects and biology. That does not mean that there are not people who are born gay. All but two of the ones I have met (female bisexuals who "experimented") have said they were born that way.

Mental Trauma can result in any type of behavior imaginable. For example every single serial killer recorded in America was documented to have been abused as a child. That doesn't mean every child who is beaten turns into Ted Bundy but it is obvious there is a connection. Likewise a vet suffering from significant PTSD who drinks himself to death as one of my older uncles did after returning from WWII. There weren't many help groups fro PTSD then and people chalked it up to another drunk Irishman... I wonder how many vets from that war never got the help they needed.

Just because my uncle fell victim to alcoholism until it claimed his life as a result of the things he went through in the Pacific doesn't mean that there are not also people out there who are biologically predisposed to alcoholism (as we know is the truth).

If someone is gay because they feel they were born that way I say let them be. If someone is acting out a gay lifestyle (or anything else that would previously have been out of character for them) after some significant mental trauma I say get them help in the form of a trained psychologist.

 

[Musketeer]

Likewise, there's gay people (and heterosexuals for that matter) who have perfectly ordinary lifestyles, and then there's others living the dissolute, amoral bathhouse-hookup lifestyle.

Exactly! Unfortunately it is that segment of the population who gain the most attention. As a result those who only know anything about gays from what their church and some political pundit windbag has told them are willing to believe anything.

We hate it when all shooters are painted with the same brush. You know, the one that says we are all unstable psychos ready to lay waste to an elementary school because a pizza was late. Yet there are plenty who paint the majority of gays with the same brush as the fringe lunatics.

 

[RedneckFur]

Again I must ask, how many of the people here who claim the majority of gays have chosen their lifestyle, not been born with it, actually know gay people. I am not talking about, "yes, Bob down in accounting is gay" but "yes, I have a family member or close friend who is gay. I know a gay couple who have been together for 30 years, etc."?

I bet not many.

I'm gay, and I did not make a choice to be this way. For as long as I can remember, I've always liked men more than women. I even tried dating girls as a teen to "fix" myself, but It didnt work. I've been in a stable and loving relationship with my partner for 4 years, and hope to be married one day. I'm a productive member of society, I care about 2nd amendment rights, and to the outside world, I look like any other, aveage, red-blooded American man.

The attitudes of some of the folks here really disturbs me...

 

[zukiphile]

Just because my uncle fell victim to alcoholism until it claimed his life as a result of the things he went through in the Pacific doesn't mean that there are not also people out there who are biologically predisposed to alcoholism (as we know is the truth).

There is no question that some people are naturally more prone to chemical addictions than others. I would not take this as a sign that we need to teach grammar school children that nurturing chemical addictions is perfectly natural and the job of all open-minded people to accept as normal.

In fact, we might still teach children that some people have a predisposition to alcoholism, or are alcoholics, but that people still choose their conscious actions, and are responsible for those actions.

If someone is gay because they feel they were born that way I say let them be. If someone is acting out a gay lifestyle (or anything else that would previously have been out of character for them) after some significant mental trauma I say get them help in the form of a trained psychologist.

That's reasonable, but it allows us to dispose of the fiction that engaging in homosexual conduct is the same as being born black.

 

[Musketeer]

Thank you RedneckFur. It takes courage to admit that here. I support your right to live as you please even if I must honestly admit the sight of two men passionately kissing makes me ill. No where in the COTUS though does it say I have a right not to be displeased by something somebody else does.

 

[zukiphile]

Quote:
Likewise, there's gay people (and heterosexuals for that matter) who have perfectly ordinary lifestyles, and then there's others living the dissolute, amoral bathhouse-hookup lifestyle.

I attribute much of that behaviour amongst male homosexuals to the fact that they are male. When I was chasing girls (figuratively) the girls were gatekeepers of sorts, their goals not being the same as mine. A twenty year old guy is a copulating machine whose few non-sexual thoughts pertain to food. Match that customer up with a like-minded supply of sexual partners, and extreme promiscuity is the predictable result.

 

[Musketeer]

That's reasonable, but it allows us to dispose of the fiction that engaging in homosexual conduct is the same as being born black.

Not in the least. Nowhere did I say that plenty, a majority in my experience, of gay people were not born that way. All I am saying is that there can be more than one cause of the behavior manifesting.

The behavior some find so wrong is homosexual sex. For the person born gay such behavior is the manifestation of their natural desire. Just because some other people who might be dealing with some form of mental trauma exhibit the same behavior does not invalidate the natural desires of the first group.

 

[zukiphile]

Quote:
That's reasonable, but it allows us to dispose of the fiction that engaging in homosexual conduct is the same as being born black.
Not in the least.

Really? I am almost sure that all black people were actually born that way. [Insert Michael Jackson joke here]

The behavior some find so wrong is homosexual sex. For the person born gay such behavior is the manifestation of their natural desire.

And some may have a natural desire to drink, smoke or drive over the speed limit. This is not a reason to regard the conduct as equivalent to race, or encourage children to think of it as normal.

 

[Musketeer]

And some may have a natural desire to drink, smoke or drive over the speed limit. This is not a reason to regard the conduct as equivalent to race, or encourage children to think of it as normal.

That you believe a person should pretend to be something they are not for their entire lives simply because a collection of closed minded individuals who are not directly affected by the behavior disagree with it is truly sad.

We really do not need to have heterosexual sex in order to propagate the species thanks to science. Since the behavior is only the manifestation of a desire heteros were born with should we repress the desire and ban the behavior? What about in 50 or 100 years when technology is even better at creating babies?

 

[Musketeer]

The line is straight out of the Catholic gay brainwashing play book... "Just because you have a desire doesn't mean God agrees you should embrace it." Of course all those heteros are free to embrace their desires... I see no reason to oppose the behavior once religion is removed from the morality decision loop.

 

[zukiphile]

Quote:
And some may have a natural desire to drink, smoke or drive over the speed limit. This is not a reason to regard the conduct as equivalent to race, or encourage children to think of it as normal.

That you believe a person should pretend to be something they are not for their entire lives ...

I do not believe that. Further, nothing I've written would reasonably lead you to think that is my position.

...simply because a collection of closed minded individuals who are not directly affected by the behavior disagree with it is truly sad.

Now holding a contrary opinion is "sad" or closed minded? I don't think that is a tolerant way to see intellectual diversity.

We really do not need to have heterosexual sex in order to propagate the species thanks to science. Since the behavior is only the manifestation of a desire heteros were born with should we repress the desire and ban the behavior? What about in 50 or 100 years when technology is even better at creating babies?

The behaviour to which you refer is sexual reproduction through copulation, the only way you and I got to these keyboards to type these words. Banning an indisputably natural and generally necessary sexual act is absurd.

Note the asymetry in your response. At no time have I or anyone in this thread suggested the banning of homosexual "sex".

 

[rampage841512]

What's the educational value? Oh, I don't know...it might teach kids something about reality instead ignoring it because parent's don't like the reality they decided to bring children into.

 

[JaserST4]

What's the educational value? Oh, I don't know...it might teach kids something about reality instead ignoring it because parent's don't like the reality they decided to bring children into.

Again, with the misrepresentations. No one said that. We are talking about kids too young to even know what sex is. The only purpose to teach them sexual diversity before that is to condition them to accept it before they can form opinions on their own. That is not what schools were designed for. I support a parent(s) right to take their child to a private school if they want to but demanding public monies be spent on their agenda is wrong.

 

[Unregistered]

it might teach kids something about reality instead ignoring it because parent's don't like the reality

That point might be valid, but why do we need elementary school children to learn about it at such an early age?

Do you think we should also let them look at porn at school? Porn is part of reality also.

 

[BoringAccountant]

There is plenty. How technical do you want it to be?

I would like to see the evidence that people are born gay...with those tendancies, with the desire to be with the same sex. Things like a study of 100 gay people found that they were born that way does not work either. Saying that a person was born gay, whether it be genetic, predisposed, or completely random is nonsense. Every scientist you could find that would support that, I could find more than one to support that there is no evidence to suggest that.

how many of the people here who claim the majority of gays have chosen their lifestyle, not been born with it, actually know gay people.

I have a great friend, who through her own choices was an out of the closet lesbian for 6 years. After those 6 years, and a baby, she realized that it was not for her and she is now happily married to a man. No religion was involved, no brainwashing, nothing, HER CHOICE. She was not born to be gay, but rather she was born to live her life as she chooses. If she wants to be gay, great, I have no problems with it, if she does not, great, I have no problems with it. To say that by me knowing a gay person, or in this case a former-gay person, that I would have some valuable insight into how and why they are gay is absurd.