Good Article on the Israeli Carry Method

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Israeli carry is an obsolete artifact, promotion of such is solely due to specific cultural inertia, and this isn't generally relevant for American shooters.

Scene: you are in a desperate scenario. You need to train as many otherwise inexperienced people as fast as possible to operate a pistol, except everyone in the class has a different pistol (a significant amount of which might not be drop safe).

The solution? You teach the most basic operation possible that works on every semiautomatic pistol, regardless.

If you have silly things like the luxury of being able to select a modern drop-safe pistol and the ability to train as much as you care to, I would dare to suggest that perhaps Israeli carry is perhaps inappropriate.

The average gunfight lasts mere seconds. Are you so skilled and lucky that you specifically intend to waste the first half of the gunfight merely activating your pistol?

With the slightest amount of forum searching or Googling, you can find videos where Israeli carry has failed. Without really trying, you can probably find videos of a jeweler taking three tries at the slide and failing, a shopkeeper fumbling the slide rack getting himself and his son killed, and even a sandwich store robber inducing a malfunction upon slide rack. Sure, "Glock leg" is a thing, but if you are such a firearm enthusiast as to be on this forum, it's probably not relevant.

So tldr; if I can train at my leisure with a modern pistol of my choice, why should I limit myself?
 
Does anyone carry one with the hammer down over an empty cylinder, thereby rendering it a 4- or 5-shot wheelgun?
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Most modern revolvers have a hammer block and the firing pin/ hammer can not contact the cartridge unless the trigger is pulled.
 
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I have 4 semi-autos that I carried with an empty chamber because I didn't trust my ability and confidence in case of an emergency. I felt I wouldn't be able to load and shoot quickly enough in an emergency. I bought a new (used)snub nose hammerless 357 Magnum that I load with 38 special +P. I am comfortable carrying it even with the limited capacity.
 
All this talk about speed for firing the first round. It's all great if there are no problems that arise .

Let me add a real life problem (happened to me). I'm right handed, my left arm was made incapable of use as I drew my weapon; so how do I rack the slide and load a round?

I can rack it on my boot heal, I can rack it on a tree, sign, curb (never trained for my teeth), but how many seconds would that add, plus put you off balance.
All I can say is I was taught to carry with one in a chamber, and that advice saved my life.

Today, having been retired for many years, I still carry with one in a chamber. One reason, training, the other when out and about, I usually have a large dog, or two, tethered to my left arm.

Carry chambered or not, but practice and be comfortable.
 
Does anyone carry one with the hammer down over an empty cylinder, thereby rendering it a 4- or 5-shot wheelgun?
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In a traditional single action revolver yes.

It's been a few generations since that was a preferred way to carry a da revolver.

tipoc
 
The crucial point was stated as :

I didn't trust my ability and confidence
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Examining this, I found it puzzling. Folks don't trust themselves not to do the simple action of drawing with a finger on the trigger. However, they trust themselves to do the complex action of drawing and racking and getting on target and then putting the finger on the trigger.

Why don't you think, if you can't control your finger, you wouldn't incorrectly place it during the racking sequence? If your finger is uncontrolled during a draw, why is it controlled later?

Since we know that most concealed carry types have minima training, rarely practice and if they do - it's just square range or tin cans - what's the real problem?

I'm having a hard time supporting folks who can't master a draw, carrying a gun for which they lack confidence. Do they feel confident in their aim, trigger pull, etc. Those are more complex.

This will come up again and the answers are the same. Train to a level of competence. Mechanics are not a solution to competence.
 
Does anyone carry one with the hammer down over an empty cylinder, thereby rendering it a 4- or 5-shot wheelgun?
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Depending on the reasoning behind carrying an empty chamber, a wheelgun might need to be carried with the NEXT chamber empty, or the chamber actually under the hammer empty, or both the chamber under the hammer and the next chamber empty.

One would prevent the gun from going off if the trigger were accidentally pulled, the other would prevent the firearm from going off if dropped or struck.
Most modern revolvers have a hammer block and the firing pin/ hammer can not contact the cartridge unless the trigger is pulled.
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This is true of most modern semi-autos as well.
 
I carry Colt and replica single action revolvers and unmodified Ruger 3-screws with an empty chamber under the cylinder. If you drop one on it’s hammer it really CAN go “booom!” Ruger single actions with transfer bar- full cylinder. Don’t pull the hammer back unless shooting.

Okay... if it’s all trigger control... do you walk around with your Single Action revolvers cocked and holstered? Of course not. Why not?

Double action I imagine it depends on how old the revolver is. My present LCRX I am looking for an owb holster with thumb-break snap. As old and creaky as I am, I still crawl under stuff. The dog’s radio collar control fell out of my pocket that way last fall. I’m fine with long pull and covered trigger and a way to secure the pistol in acrobatic positions. If I saw a bunny, it doesn’t take that long to pop the snap. It gives a more friendly look to the casual folk met on the trail, although in the jacket pocket in an iwb holster sounds good, too.. protect the trigger, finish, and internals from lint and cookie crumbs. Dog cookies. Every darned jacket has dog treat crumbs in it. I am real popular with dogs. “Hey, my dog likes you!” “No kidding, I must smell like a dog smorgasbord.”

I saw an interesting documentary on the auto industry and safety features. Before safety glass, folks got thrown through the windshield when they crashed. “Well”, the reasoning went, “good drivers don’t have crashes. Improve your skills.”

The industry implemented the first generation of safety glass. For a good while, the grisliest job in the highway patrol was searching for lost heads at a crash scene. At the perfectly wrong velocity, the passenger’s head just penetrated the windshield then on the bounce... bouncing back in to the car... decapitation. “Oh, crashes only happen to bad drivers.”

Airplane pilots and race car drivers wore 4 or 5 point harnesses. Super seatbelts. These guys helped change public opinion about seat belts. Now if you are in an accident it’s not automatically assumed that somehow you could avoid it if only you were smart or clever or skilled and manly enough.

Me, every time I handle something dangerous I tell myself that this is an accident waiting to happen to me. I have no proof, but in my life accidents happened when I had grown overconfident. Sort of like the “2 year danger zone” for new motorcycle riders.

I believe the Israeli training is “don’t draw until you are going to shoot. If you draw- shoot.” I can’t say for certain, not being trained there. Makes sense to me- the threat is deadly or it isn’t and if you are not sure, get outa there.

How do I reholster? Usually I empty the magazine at any deadly pine cones, pop cans, bits of abandoned farm implements, whatever. Release slide, release magazine, holster. Reload magazine, unholster, insert magazine, reholster.

Or... pop magazine, rack slide, reinsert magazine, holster, pick up unfired cartridge.

Seriously, you guys are going to trust the safety of a Norinco TT Olympia?

I feel completely confident in my skills.
I feel completely confident that one day I very may well have a ND so I so everything possible to minimize that chance. It will never be zero.
I am completely confident that my chance of a ND is greater than my chance of needing to use my pistol defensively.
I’m confident that when my assessment of risk changes, I can rack the slide, reholster, and carry on as normal.

Now, if we are going to accept YouTube as valid evidence for things, I can show you hundreds of idiots with firearms having all distressing sorts of NDs for every video proving half a second made the difference.

There is “Glock Leg” in the vernacular for a reason.

The resistance to “other people don’t care” and “they do things different in other countries” is sort of amazing.
 
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I believe the Israeli training is “don’t draw until you are going to shoot. If you draw- shoot.” I can’t say for certain, not being trained there. Makes sense to me- the threat is deadly or it isn’t and if you are not sure, get outa there.
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No, that is very naive in the civilian self-defense context. Saying that one has to shoot after a draw is silly and to say that is reckless.

There is a tremendous amount of cognitive dissonance here to mask a lack of confidence in ability.
 
jmr40 said:
I'm sure I'll be shouted down. But carrying with an un-chambered round is a viable option. There is a time and place for both and either is acceptable depending on the situation. And depending on the situation I carry both ways. Sometimes it is FASTER to chamber a round from an un holstered gun than get a pistol with a round chambered out of a holster.
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Are you talking about walking around with a pistol in your hand? Where and when would you do that?
 
Depending on the reasoning behind carrying an empty chamber, a wheelgun might need to be carried with the NEXT chamber empty, or the chamber actually under the hammer empty, or both the chamber under the hammer and the next chamber empty.

One would prevent the gun from going off if the trigger were accidentally pulled, the other would prevent the firearm from going off if dropped or struck.
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I have not met anyone who did this, the bolded part I mean. It can only be done with a da revolver. First I've heard of it. Extremely cautious individual I would assume.

tipoc
 
I find it interesting that advocates for Israeli carry think "all you have to do is train yourself to rack your gun after drawing it," and yet somehow one cannot be trained to simply flip a thumb safety off. And yet I've read countless posts from concerned members about how people shouldn't carry 1911s because no matter how much they train, one day in a critical moment they're going to forget to flip that thumb safety down and die while trying to vainly pull the trigger.

Why doesn't that same reasoning apply to Israeli carry? Is anyone really thinking that somehow training to rack the slide is any different from training to flip off the thumb safety?

Seriously, if one can be trained to rack a slide after every draw (as tedious as that might seem), what's stopping anyone from learning to move their thumb down 1/4 of an inch as one rotates their gun to the horizontal? Seems like that would be a lot easier to do, allows for one-handed draws, and would be just as safe if not safer.

So in conclusion, it seems obvious that if you're worried about Glock leg or whatever, your first best option would be to buy a gun with a thumb safety, the best of which come on 1911s, and train yourself to move your thumb up and down a quarter of an inch. Problem solved without having to train yourself to rack the slide every time you draw.
 
Stop making sense and it is a good comparison.

However, I have seen folks in matches forget the safety. If it killed someone on the street, I don't know.

I saw and read that one thing might mess up the draw and safety off routine. That was if you were drawing the gun from a not standard position or picking it up in a hurry from a box. That isn't a standard 'muscle' memory scenario and some folks screwed it up. I saw that.

It's similar to folks not being able to find a red dot in the same scenario. With their standard draw, they saw the sight - with non-standard it took a bit.

That being said, it is a good point. I've practiced the draw and safety routine quite a bit. Might I mess it up, maybe but I've tried.
 
I wonder if - hate me for this - if you Israeli carry and then your good shoot is 'ambiguous' and off you got to trial.

The prosecution will say that you have admitted you lack competence in your ability to handle a firearm and thus had bad judgment. The defense will say, you demonstrated sensible concern to carry safely.

Wonder how that turns out if the jury members look at the Internet?

We are sort of getting to the end of meaningful discussion.
 
However, I have seen folks in matches forget the safety. If it killed someone on the street, I don't know.
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Well, I can’t say it was solely responsible for the death; but there was a convenience store robbery where the clerk tried to shoot his attacker, stopped looked at his Taurus 902 Slim, flipped the safety off and brought it back up just in time to get shot in the chest and killed.

He also had the gun in a drawer with no round chambered (going to the box thing you referenced). He might have survived one of those choices; but all of them combined stopped him from even getting a round off.
 
So Glenn, your concern is about court-

What's the chance that spending time on the internet talking about how to shoot 0.5 seconds faster will count against you should a prosecutor determine one was too fast on the trigger?
 
Bartholomew Roberts said:
Well, I can’t say it was solely responsible for the death; but there was a convenience store robbery where the clerk tried to shoot his attacker, stopped looked at his Taurus 902 Slim, flipped the safety off and brought it back up just in time to get shot in the chest and killed.

He also had the gun in a drawer with no round chambered (going to the box thing you referenced). He might have survived one of those choices; but all of them combined stopped him from even getting a round off.
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And here's a case where condition 3 got someone killed recently:
https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/environmental/article_7bb8d117-4a3d-5843-b1eb-0780d6e4f670.html

The gun in question was a Glock. That info is in a subsequent article which I can't find at the moment.
 
manta49 said:
And i am sure there are examples of people accidentally killing themselves or others because their firearms was in condition 1.
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I'm sure there are such cases. The point I was trying to make wasn't that carrying in C-1 is safer than carrying in C-3. My point (which actually was a counter-point to Bart's post) was that C-3 isn't some kind of panacea for safe carry.

In my inexpert opinion, it's probable that carrying in C-3 is just as likely, if not more likely, to promote pressing the trigger on an empty chamber in a critical situation.

But without hard data, there's no realistic way to know for sure.
 
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