Getting searched on State Parks?
- Thread starter Armando B
- Start date
Edward429451
Moderator
Whoa what a tough audience. I wasn't talking about all police officers, I was talking about one specific DOW officer. I respect and show all officers respect. The respectable reasonable ones moreso because they deserve it and the badge heavy officers moreso than they deserve, because they can jail or kill me. Sorry if I don't grovel at the feet of your uniform guys but oh my god I expressed my discontent to an officer, so what. I'm Osama now? Get real.
How about if they ask me to search me in the State park? Would you have me fall down groveling with permission then out of blind misplaced respect for the uniform? Or I'm the badguy then too?
Yes, it is pretty funny. Even where you guys call me names and paint me with the broad brush of anti cop because (gasp), I expressed discontent to one. How narrow minded can you all be?
How about if they ask me to search me in the State park? Would you have me fall down groveling with permission then out of blind misplaced respect for the uniform? Or I'm the badguy then too?
Yes, it is pretty funny. Even where you guys call me names and paint me with the broad brush of anti cop because (gasp), I expressed discontent to one. How narrow minded can you all be?
"I wasn't talking about all police officers, I was talking about one specific DOW officer. I respect and show all officers respect." Huh? Really? Is that so? You show all officers respect?
Did you show respect to the officer who arrested your BIL who didn't take care of a traffic ticket?
So, tell me, when you:
was that showing showing the officer respect?
Did you show respect to the officer who arrested your BIL who didn't take care of a traffic ticket?
So, tell me, when you:
was that showing showing the officer respect?
Conn. Trooper
New member
Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet. — USMC Rules o
Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet. — USMC Rules of Combat #23
Creature, a little off topic, but that saying is great. I never knew where that came from. ( I was in the Army, Cav Scout, our motto was "Why walk when you can drive"). I am going to use that and pretend its not from the Marines.
Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet. — USMC Rules of Combat #23
Creature, a little off topic, but that saying is great. I never knew where that came from. ( I was in the Army, Cav Scout, our motto was "Why walk when you can drive"). I am going to use that and pretend its not from the Marines.
Edward429451
Moderator
More than he deserved. You didn't hear his tone or observe his body language, as you weren't there.
You are right, I wasn't there. It has been my experience, however, that the only time I received grief from a police officer was when I was being a jerk (many years ago). Since then, I have always treated them respectfully and they have done the same.
If your behavior was exemplary (which, given your postings here I find hard to believe) and the officer's behavior was uncalled for, then you should have kept your cool, been polite and respectful, and then submitted a complaint in writing. Calling the officer a JBT is both foolish and counter-productive.
If your behavior was exemplary (which, given your postings here I find hard to believe) and the officer's behavior was uncalled for, then you should have kept your cool, been polite and respectful, and then submitted a complaint in writing. Calling the officer a JBT is both foolish and counter-productive.
Edward429451
Moderator
This is getting very interesting. No shortage of people taking me to task, but noone has answered my reasonable question ! Just veiled death threats and put downs, hmm.
If I'm approached by an officer in a State Park and he asks to search me (That question means he has no PC!) Should I allow him to or...act less than exemplary and refuse him the search?
m1911, I was exemplary all the way up intil he started acting like a JBT. Sounds like you guys are asking me to be a sheeple and be obsequious to officers no matter the situation. Sorry but that doesn't stand to reason.
Good thread for this. Several people have advised in general to refuse the search, yet others seem to be saying that if you're not obsequious, then you're some kind of anti cop/american person who is nothing more than a jerk. Hmm, so which is it? You guys got a paradox here and are not being consistent.
If I'm approached by an officer in a State Park and he asks to search me (That question means he has no PC!) Should I allow him to or...act less than exemplary and refuse him the search?
m1911, I was exemplary all the way up intil he started acting like a JBT. Sounds like you guys are asking me to be a sheeple and be obsequious to officers no matter the situation. Sorry but that doesn't stand to reason.
Good thread for this. Several people have advised in general to refuse the search, yet others seem to be saying that if you're not obsequious, then you're some kind of anti cop/american person who is nothing more than a jerk. Hmm, so which is it? You guys got a paradox here and are not being consistent.
What would I do, delay.
Ask why they wanted to search. (Of course I would flash my own badge and then the conversation would go into a whole different direction).
If I matched the description of a perp in the area, and I had nothing to hide, Which I cannot recall the last time I had something to hide from a law enforcement person (high school I am guessing) then I might agree to the search in order to be eliminated from any confusion.
Truefully it all depends on the circumstances, how they approached me, the area I am in. All kinds of factors.
I just reviewed the thread what
Ask why they wanted to search. (Of course I would flash my own badge and then the conversation would go into a whole different direction).
If I matched the description of a perp in the area, and I had nothing to hide, Which I cannot recall the last time I had something to hide from a law enforcement person (high school I am guessing) then I might agree to the search in order to be eliminated from any confusion.
Truefully it all depends on the circumstances, how they approached me, the area I am in. All kinds of factors.
I just reviewed the thread what
are you talking about?
Edward429451
Moderator
Post #44 ! I may be a little non conventional in my thinking about certain things but I'm no dummy! His attitude, the timing, the context of the thread, mine & his back n forth...C'mon, that was to me. It's also all he has to fall back on, his lawbook & gun.
Now you guys can explain to me how it wasn't to me, I'm in left field...Ok, this should be pretty good!
Now you guys can explain to me how it wasn't to me, I'm in left field...Ok, this should be pretty good!
You're right, if he's asking, he doesn't have the PC. If the two of you are alone, I'd say let him search. As long as you don't have anything illegal on you, you're ok. If you're with a group (witnesses), I might refuse and see what his next move is.
Either way, definitely ask the reason, and ALWAYS be respectful - if not because of the officer, then because of the uniform/authority it represents.
An LEO in the field will ALWAYS win an argument or altercation (one way or another) - he has to to control the situation/scene. The time to argue is in court or at a hearing later.
Edward429451
Moderator
Hey thanks for the reasonable response Gerald. I agree with most of what you said. Where I do disagree is that, if I have something that may be construed as illegal, I will respectfully refuse the search. If I know I'm squeeky clean, then I think I would most assuredly refuse the search on principle alone.
I think we're in agreement that cops have lawful boundries. Is in not a good thing to (respectfully) stand firm on those boundries? To send the message that we are Americans and have rights that should be recognized. If we aquiese (sp?) our rights away by total blind compliance to the uniform...then we have no rights, cops have no boundries, and the country goes downhill even faster. ?
Do you think it's possible to stand firm on ones rights & beliefs, and still be respectful to an officer? (I do and have proven it, I didn't go to jail that day!)
I think we're in agreement that cops have lawful boundries. Is in not a good thing to (respectfully) stand firm on those boundries? To send the message that we are Americans and have rights that should be recognized. If we aquiese (sp?) our rights away by total blind compliance to the uniform...then we have no rights, cops have no boundries, and the country goes downhill even faster. ?
Do you think it's possible to stand firm on ones rights & beliefs, and still be respectful to an officer? (I do and have proven it, I didn't go to jail that day!)
Come again?
Who are you referring too? Because you lost me there.For the sixth or seventh time, the DOW were completely within their jurisdiction and they had the authority to make the arrest! Why do you keep saying they were out of bounds?
Secondly, by your own admission you wrote:
Is that very statement, you admit to being disrespectful and out of line.
I agree with that. A neutral tone of voice, no names or epithets hurled, and no posturing will show that, while you respect his authority, you do recognize your rights.
**********
"Mr. XXX, I'd like permission to search your person for YYY."
"I'm sorry, officer, I refuse permission for you to search me. What is your probable cause?"
**********
Keep in mind that even an attitude may be generated into PC. For example, if, at that point, you take off running, you WILL be searched when you're caught. If he's a clean cop, he'll tell you why he wants to search, and will respect your refusal. If he's a dirty cop, he'll come up with something. Unless I'm mistaken, the officer IS allowed to search for weapons in order to protect himself. This should only be a brief "patdown" looking for guns or knives that can obviously be felt through the clothing. The officer is also allowed to search (for weapons only) the area in the vehicle that you can reach when he stopped you. He can't search a locked glove compartment unless the key is in the lock. He cannot search the trunk, for example, without PC. If any illegal item is in plain sight (like a roach in the ashtray), that's plenty of probable cause.
He also has the option of holding you, either at the scene, or at the station, while he convinces the DA and a judge of his PC and obtains a warrant. Very few LEOs will go to this extent unless they're pretty sure they'll find something.
A couple of times police have come to my door, either acting on a call from me, or from a local situation. When they requested that we talk inside my home, I politely refused and stepped out on the porch to chat. They were professionals who said and did nothing about my legal refusal of access.
Conn. Trooper
New member
Post #44 ! I may be a little non conventional in my thinking about certain things but I'm no dummy! His attitude, the timing, the context of the thread, mine & his back n forth...C'mon, that was to me. It's also all he has to fall back on, his lawbook & gun.
Read the rest of it, I was commenting on another users tag line (Creature). I had heard it before and didnt know where it came from, I thought the saying was funny. Turns out its something from the Marine Corps.
I didnt threaten anyone in any way shape or form. I even posted "a little off topic" before I re-posted the saying and gave credit to Creature for having it on his profile. Are you kidding me? Death threats? Do you really believe that or is it more levity?
To answer another part of your question, you can refuse a search for any reason whatsoever, and there should be no fallout from that. However, you can refuse a search and do it politely and like a gentleman. You dont have to name call and "give people hell".
Maybe something like this.
Ofc. "Would you object to a search of your person?"
You- " I dont want to be searched, I have nothing to hide but I dont want to be searched."
That isnt groveling before anybody, and its not infringing on your rights, but still being polite. It is possible.
Anybody really think I was threatening anybody? Read the whole post, you will see I reposted another users tag line because it caught my eye and thought it was funny.
Read the rest of it, I was commenting on another users tag line (Creature). I had heard it before and didnt know where it came from, I thought the saying was funny. Turns out its something from the Marine Corps.
I didnt threaten anyone in any way shape or form. I even posted "a little off topic" before I re-posted the saying and gave credit to Creature for having it on his profile. Are you kidding me? Death threats? Do you really believe that or is it more levity?
To answer another part of your question, you can refuse a search for any reason whatsoever, and there should be no fallout from that. However, you can refuse a search and do it politely and like a gentleman. You dont have to name call and "give people hell".
Maybe something like this.
Ofc. "Would you object to a search of your person?"
You- " I dont want to be searched, I have nothing to hide but I dont want to be searched."
That isnt groveling before anybody, and its not infringing on your rights, but still being polite. It is possible.
Anybody really think I was threatening anybody? Read the whole post, you will see I reposted another users tag line because it caught my eye and thought it was funny.
I DO agree it's a person's tight to refuse a no PC search.
However:
You were WAY out of line here. The officer was doing his job. It's not his discretion to overlook outstanding warrants, no matter how trivial. He probably ran both your names as a routine. Most LE agencies do this now-a-days. Many serious criminals have been nabbed on an old traffic ticket.
However:
You were WAY out of line here. The officer was doing his job. It's not his discretion to overlook outstanding warrants, no matter how trivial. He probably ran both your names as a routine. Most LE agencies do this now-a-days. Many serious criminals have been nabbed on an old traffic ticket.
A crooked court might interpret this as not being a "clear refusal" of the search. "Sure, you don't want to be searched, but who would?"
The courts have ruled that the fact that officers had their weapons drawn and had handcuffed an individual prior to asking for consent did not make the consent involuntary, for example.
"I don't consent to any search," is the phrase I've heard recommended.
Conn. Trooper
New member
I think I am going to take a little vacation from here. I appreciate the discussion, but it seems to degenerate into mud slinging, and nobody needs that.