Getting searched on State Parks?

A

Armando B

New member
Almost every state park I've been too has posted NO FIREARMS bills at most trail heads, etc.

An interesting story that just happened to a couple I know made me wonder about how this is being enforced.

This couple (very yuppie looking, non-firearm folks) were strapping on thier backpacks after a short break on the trail when a Park Ranger pulled up, got out of his car and asked them if they had a firearm on their person (out of the blue!). They didn't and replied as such but he kept pressing them, saying they had "acted in a manner that made him think they were carrying a concealed firearm". He then asked if he could "search them and their gear"! :confused:

They refused and he didn't press the issue....

Made me wonder, is "just cause" and all other protections null and void in State/National Parks? Can Park officers just walk up and ask to search you? What if you refuse? Can they arrest you?

Just wondered if anyone has had a similar incident?
 
Probable Cause

A park ranger (certified law enforcement or not) needs "probable cause" as justification for his actions, just as any other law enforcement officer. As you have described this particular incident, merely acting "in a manner that made him think they were carrying a concealed firearm" is not legitimate as PC. It would appear this ranger was a bit badge-heavy in his rules enforcement conduct. I hope you reported him to a supervisor.
 
Made me wonder, is "just cause" and all other protections null and void in State/National Parks? Can Park officers just walk up and ask to search you? What if you refuse? Can they arrest you?
Click to expand...

Last time I looked, the Constitution and BoR still applied in both State and National parks.

In order to search your/my/our person, an officer needs to have probable cause that you are comitting or have committed a crime or you are about to do so. His PC must be articulable to a court and based on his training and experiences with a high probability of being correct.

In other words... if his training says that backpackers who stop just out of sight of "developed areas" who stow gear inside their packs are very likely concealing firearms, then it might be part of his PC. His PC would be better if he could say the actors were acting nervously and/or taking pains to wrap/conceal something they packed away.

If his experience says that those who stop as described above aren't always hiding a weapon, but in almost every case where one person watches the trail while the other stows gear IS hiding a weapon, then he's has a pretty good PC. Provided that's what your friend(s) did.

Any officer can walk up and ask your permission to search you or your property. And you always have a right to refuse such a search (in fact you should always refuse). Officers may not legally use your refusal as part of their "probable cause" nor should they indicate that your refusal implies you are hiding something.
 
JHC! The guy didn't need probable cause to ask permission to search. He didn't get permission. He didn't search. He didn't violate anybody's rights.
 
I felt that same was as y'all, but it really surprised me that they seemed to be "looking" for people carrying in the park (whereas around where I live, lots of folks have CCW and carry almost everywhere with most LEO's knowing).
 
I don't do state parks because they are STATE PARKS! If your lucky you can see the wild life over the shoulders of the controllers! I don't like the Idea of paying a entrey fee to see my own property!:rolleyes:
 
luckily in Indiana, they just lifted all bans on legally carrying firearms in all state and local parks.
 
topical right now

Funny how this old post of mine is so topical now.

I've noticed that here in NC, you can't carry during bow season even on game lands.

Still, wondering if anyone else has ever been stopped and searched like this by game warden or other such...
 
They are badge heavy nowadays. Was fishing with my BIL and some DOW's showed up, checked our licenses and bid us good day since all our papers vere in order. Back 15 minutes later to arrest BIL for a FTA on an old traffic ticket.

I gave em a little hell for it, asked if he was proud to catch a traffic offender and get to feel like a JBT. The older wiser partner pulled him away before it escalated.
 
JHC! The guy didn't need probable cause to ask permission to search. He didn't get permission. He didn't search. He didn't violate anybody's rights.
Click to expand...

Alleykat is correct. All he did was ask a question, and they declined the search.

If you voluntarily give an officer permission to look, he does not need probable cause.
 
I gave em a little hell for it, asked if he was proud to catch a traffic offender and get to feel like a JBT. The older wiser partner pulled him away before it escalated.
Click to expand...

So because your brother in law broke the law and didn't take care of it, you felt the need to act like a punk and show your ass to a couple of guys just doing their jobs?
 
Edward425491
I gave em a little hell for it, asked if he was proud to catch a traffic offender and get to feel like a JBT.
Click to expand...

Too bad the brother-in-law didn't have an older, wiser partner along that day!:cool:
 
That isnt DOW's job. Traffic cop? You must be kidding! That arrest was over-zealous, not in their job description, and you're darn right it ticked me off. We were high in the mountains and bothering no one. The older wiser guy respected my position.

And since when is excercising a 1st Am. right make one a punk? Oh, you must be a LEO? Your ass is showing for name calling where not warranted. Old traffic ticket bro, not wanted murderer. sheesh.:rolleyes:
 
I thought that there was a supreme court ruling allowing a search for weapons just on general principles. That the court ruled that such PC-less searches were justified by safety concerns. Feel lucky - in the PRK by statute you can be arrested and taken to jail for refusing to wave your search and seizure rights. I'm told by knowledgeable LEOs that this law has been tested and upheld in the federal courts.
 
He then asked if he could "search them and their gear"!
Click to expand...
If he had probable cause, he wouldn't have asked. But he didn't have probable cause, so when they refused permission, he was SOL.

He was just on a fishing expedition and the couple did the right thing by refusing to give permission.
 
I thought that there was a supreme court ruling allowing a search for weapons just on general principles. That such PC-less searches were justified by safety concerns.
Click to expand...

You mean Terry v. Ohio? A Terry search needs at least reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed or is imminent, and then only a pat of the outer clothing for weapons.
 
That isnt DOW's job.
Click to expand...

Arresting a person who doesnt appear in a court when summoned not his job? It most certainly is his job and I commend that officer for doing so. To not arrest your brother would have been dereliction of duty.

Dont believe me?: look here.
(North Carolina) Wildlife enforcement officers are sworn, full-time law enforcement officers with full arrest authority for state and federal violations.​

Traffic ticket sheesh?...your dumb BIL should have showed up in court.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top