Get the right CCW weapon

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Darren Roberts
Get the right CCW weapon

There is alot of excitment about small frame large caliber sidearms that are being manufactured and sold with the ever expanding CCW market as the prime target. While these weapons are easy to conceal, will they do the job intended when you purchase them.

When considering a CCW weapon you have to choose the best weapon FOR YOU. You will want to test fire various weapons and compare by size (barrel length), weight and caliber. A simple method for equal comparison is listed below.

These drills are designed for standard target at 20'.

1. Clear and fire - what is the time it takes you to clear your weapon from its usual concealment spot and fire a shot on target. It is important to draw your weapon from where you will most likely be carrying it. The likelyhood of having your weapon in your hand at a time of attack is very small.

2. accuracy - Most individuals at the begginer and novice stage of experience do not realize how inaccurate small framed weapons are.
To test accuracy - After drawing and getting your first hit on target, continue to fire and count how many rounds are placed on target in three (3) seconds. Small frame, short barrel weapons will fall short in this catagory.

3. Knock down power - The majority of situations where an individual will be using a sidearm as primary defense is in an area less than 30ft from you to an assailant. This distance only allows for 1 to 2 shots from even experienced shooters. If you take your score from time to target and accuracy charting you will find that it usually translates to maybe 1 shot on target before your assailant reaches you. That is if you can even get your gun cleared. So while the pink .22 and .32 handguns are "adorable" they simply do not have the One Shot Stop factor needed in a real life and death situation. Add to that the extreme recoil of smaller framed weapons the chances of getting off a second accurate shot is near immposible. The first shot has to count.

1. Clear and fire
This has to do with situational awareness, skill, and . . . . . . .
You are out of time! You need to shoot, right now!
You can not react if you are not aware.

2. accuracy
Rather than small framed weapons are inaccurate, I think it would be better put that it is harder/more difficult/time consuming for a person to gain enough skill to hit as well with a small frame handgun than with a larger one.
(With enough practice I can draw and fire 5 rounds of .38 special from a S&W Model 60 into a 8" center of mass circle at 5 yards in about 2.5 seconds from a random signal.)

3. Knock down power
I suppose you actually mean stopping power. Remember physics, equal and opposite reactions and all that.
I do get your point though, which is "Choose enough gun for the job".
Unfortunately people internalize all of their experience in life to some extent. Even those experiences which are purely fictional, as in movies and television. By the age of 21 Americans have seen thousands of people shot and knocked off their feet, blow up, and instantly killed by any imaginable assortment of firearms and projectiles, in the movies and television. Even though we know this is fictional, we still (to some extent) internalize these experiences and they influence our expectations on how an adversary should react to getting shot in a defensive shooting. Many people fully expect that if they shoot someone, that is all it takes to win. Problem immediately solved.

They fail to take into account that the primary mechanism of incapacitation of a bullet is hemorrhaging and resulting blood pressure loss. This takes time (many seconds, which is a long time in a gunfight) depending upon the degree of hemorrhaging caused by the bullet or bullets. I submit that all defensive handgun cartridges are under powered. That is why it is taught to shoot twice (for some cartridges and training three times) to center of mass, assess and proceed as necessary.
 
I can find many instances where individuals were successful in defending themselves with a handgun in close quarters. But look at the overall statistics and you will find that for every successful defense there are about 1000 deaths.

If that were true, then each of the "Armed Citizen" stories cited in every issue of American Rifleman would be accompanied by 1000 deaths. The ratio might be 1000:1, but in favor of the good guys.
 
In regards to his instructor qualifications, I don't expect Darren will be posting his resume in this thread....nor do I expect that Darren will make good on the challenge he offered up to MLeake. And I wouldn't be surprised if we don't much more of Darren here on TFL after this exchange.
 
A 1,000:1 ratio of deaths to successful defensive gun uses would be trumpeted from the mountain tops by TheBradyBunch, etc., if it had even a grain of truth to it.

Maybe it does, though: There might be 1,000 deaths from all causes, including everything from heart disease, lung cancer, being caught in machinery, to auto-erotic aspyxiation, for every successful DGU .......

There's Lies, there's ****** Lies, and then there's Statistics.
 
I just realized that as of his third post, Darren had added "SSGT USMC 86-94" to his tag line.

If he should prove to be a fake, that is the part of this I think I will find most offensive. I really, really dislike false claims of veteran status, and the like.

The more time that passes without him responding with facility and organization address and phone numbers (verifiable, of course - I am not making a 7 to 8 hour round trip chasing phantoms), the more I have to think he's not only misguided, but also a fake.

Darren, please provide the info. Since I'd come to your place, you don't need mine... but if you wish, I can provide you links to Big Green Drum Aikido in Pensacola, Shindai Aikikai in Orlando, Aikido of North Florida (although I don't think I know anybody there, anymore), Eastside Aikido of Seattle, and Musha Dojo in Fayetteville, NC. There are a couple private individuals I train with, but I won't give out their info, sorry.

Or, I could possibly ask Massad Ayoob to give this thread a check-over. I've met Mas, and he might vouch for me.

Or Pax might, for that matter. I've actually done a little bit of weapon retention and attacked-while-drawing drills with her.

Please put up or shut up, Darren.

M

Edit: PS, to make it easier for you to verify me, Darren...

Mods I have met in person: Pax, Shane Tuttle

Senior members I have met in person (and trained under EDit: at a MAG-40 class - don't want people to think I have months of training with them, just a week): Mas (Massad Ayoob), Marty Hayes

Senior members I have shot with, had dinner with, etc: Tom Servo, orionengr

I can be wrong at times, but I don't deliberately mislead. So it doesn't bother me at all to provide references.
 
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ak2323, I got slapped on the hands by a moderator for using that "T" word a couple weeks ago!!!
I don't really think the OP is "one who lives under a bridge, and eats small children". Just a self proclaimed "expert" with only theory, and no expertise on his chosen subject!:eek:
But the thread has been entertaining! :D:D
 
Sounds like we may have another LuckyInKentucky type situation on our hands.

Darren,

Just because you heard it from an instructor doesn't make it true. In fact, when I first got my CCW I took a class with an ex at a local shooting range. It was taught by a mall ninja who worked at the range and it was only the three of us. At one point he told us it doesn't hurt to carry a "drop knife" in case you shoot someone who's unarmed. Even as a novice I knew this was very bad advice. Whoever taught you the 30ft foolishness gave you bad advice that could get you killed. Parroting it and defending it online is just as foolish.
 
I am in Springfield, and would be more than happy to arrange a time when you could come down and shot with us on our private tactical ranges. We try to simulate, as close as possible, real life scenarios.

Every state has a Springfield. I'm guessing the OP is from Springfield Illinois, where he is having this fantasy of carrying a concealed firearm legally!
 
Watch your step, Cheap - he's got 'tactical' ranges. :eek:

Whenever you hear a civilian say the word 'tactical' it is a sign that the SHTF and you need to grab your Bug-out bag, and tactically retreat to higher ground.

He wants to 'shot' with you. That sounds very, very suspect.

YMMV etc.
 
"DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DRAW A WEAPON IF YOU ARE WITHIN 30ft OF YOUR ATTACKER!"

"Even with experience and training alot of instructors, private and professional, will still advise not to draw your weapon."

There is a lot of BS on here but, these are the STUPIDEST things I have heard yet!!!

As usual, I'm with Kraig...

T.
 
The best thing about these post is that it smokes out the guys in the KNOW to respond with good general advise for all. I just worry about their blood pressure....
 
The only response I need to make is...No I am not a fake. You may disagree with something I said, but to get to this insulting level, just shows me you are a completly childish group.
God help those who disagree with the All Knowing Masters on here.
Not once did I get disrespectful. Not once did I insult anyone's claim of who they are or what they do.
Instead of "could you explain your statements and why you believe them?" I get called names and insulted like this is the 3rd grade.
I can verify who I am, my experience, and successess. But why should I to a group of immature people who aren't capable of having a civil debate about a disagreement. I should have known to expect this from an internet forum though.
By the way our ranges are co-owned by a group of us from the VFW/American Legion. It was a simple invitation to come and shoot.
 
It's not just about what you said, Darren, although why would any of us carry a weapon if it was unwise to draw if a bad guy is within 30 feet is beyond me. Almost all the threats that any of us might face on a daily basis will occur at less than that distance. If you are shooting people at greater than 30 feet, you'll probably end up in jail.

I think the thing that is p*****g most people off is how you said it... a newcomer to this board populated by some incredibly experienced shooters, giving advice as if you have something they don't have, namely expertise.

When challenged to defend your beliefs, you didn't stop to consider that some of these guys ACTUALLY know a great deal more than you, and that it might be wise to listen and learn from them.

Sorry if your feelings got hurt, but you should have expected it.
 
Darren, you are entitled to express an opinion such as don't try to draw your handgun if an attacker is within 30 feet.

However, your statement:
But look at the overall statistics and you will find that for every successful defense there are about 1000 deaths.
is allegation of fact. You are asserting that about 1,000 humans die as a result of attempts to defend themselves with a handgun when attacked for every single successful attempt to defend with a handgun against such an attack.

Please post references to your sources for this alleged fact.
 
The only response I need to make is...No I am not a fake. You may disagree with something I said, but to get to this insulting level, just shows me you are a completly childish group.
God help those who disagree with the All Knowing Masters on here.
Not once did I get disrespectful. Not once did I insult anyone's claim of who they are or what they do.
Instead of "could you explain your statements and why you believe them?" I get called names and insulted like this is the 3rd grade.
I can verify who I am, my experience, and successess. But why should I to a group of immature people who aren't capable of having a civil debate about a disagreement. I should have known to expect this from an internet forum though.
By the way our ranges are co-owned by a group of us from the VFW/American Legion. It was a simple invitation to come and shoot.

Darren, FWIW I agree. The response here has been unbelievably childish and disrespectful. But I'm pretty new here and haven't spoken out on this thread till now.

I agreed with the premiss of the original post:
If you are not an experienced shooter who has pratice at rapid draw and target acquisition, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DRAW A WEAPON IF YOU ARE WITHIN 30ft OF YOUR ATTACKER!

Seems like most of the responses ignored that first part of that, and only replied to the caps part. 30ft isn't very far at all, only 10 yards, or 6-7 steps for someone at a full run. I'd better know for sure that I can draw and fire in under two seconds, but more importantly I'd better know for sure that the guy coming at me is coming at me and not running past to catch an old friend who is behind me. Or that I don't miss and hit some little girl 30 yards behind where he was .02 seconds before my bullet went by.

But if everyone on the interwebz was as badass in real life, there'd be no more BGs.
 
Actually, Darren, the responses you seem upset about stemmed from you offering an invitation to shoot and observe, then disappearing when asked for location, organization, and verification.

That sort of thing happens a lot, when people aren't who or what they claim.

If your invitation was legitimate, provide verification so people know they are going to a real place to meet a real person.

Otherwise, it is so much hot air.

And that 1000:1 thing doesn't help.
 
If Daren isn't happy with us childish members here, maybe he needs to try another forum. One that starts with AR, and ends with 15!
I think he might fit in quite well over there.
 
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