Gasp! Shock! Savage Arms use an ... Indian!!!
- Thread starter Bruce in West Oz
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"Irish" is a word based on what the invading Anglo Saxons called the inhabitants of the island, not on what they called themselves.
"Celtic" is based on what the invading Romans called the tribes of northwest Europe, not on what they called themselves.
The Romans and later the Anglo Saxons (and still later the Normans) utterly destroyed the "Celtic" and the "Irish" cultures. The "Celtic" languages do not survive except in small pockets spoken mostly only by the elderly. The "Celtic" religions do not survive, those "pagan" ways having been rooted out.
Do you have any idea who Maeve or Chuchulain are? What about Cormac, Oisin, Dyfed, Rhonabwy or Manawyddan? If you don't, it's because the Saxons and the Normans rooted out the folk tales of your ancestors, and now there is nothing left for you do to but call your ancestors by a name forced upon them by the invader, "Irish."
"Celtic" is based on what the invading Romans called the tribes of northwest Europe, not on what they called themselves.
The Romans and later the Anglo Saxons (and still later the Normans) utterly destroyed the "Celtic" and the "Irish" cultures. The "Celtic" languages do not survive except in small pockets spoken mostly only by the elderly. The "Celtic" religions do not survive, those "pagan" ways having been rooted out.
Do you have any idea who Maeve or Chuchulain are? What about Cormac, Oisin, Dyfed, Rhonabwy or Manawyddan? If you don't, it's because the Saxons and the Normans rooted out the folk tales of your ancestors, and now there is nothing left for you do to but call your ancestors by a name forced upon them by the invader, "Irish."
Guys, you're wandering pretty far afield. Arguments about how terrible it is that PC has made it undesirable to call an Indian an Indian are simply strawmen. That was never the problem in this thread and you all well know it.
The term in question is not "Indian" or "brave" but "savage." There is no culture on Earth which considers "savage" a compliment. To name your company Savage and then decide that the logo that makes the most sense is an Indian, when Indians have always been referred to in common usage as "those stinking savages" IS a serious slur against those people.
I don't value PC, but I don't go out of my way to call people insulting names either. Savage has the right to use whatever they want as a logo, but they can't expect that nobody will wonder at their choice.
The term in question is not "Indian" or "brave" but "savage." There is no culture on Earth which considers "savage" a compliment. To name your company Savage and then decide that the logo that makes the most sense is an Indian, when Indians have always been referred to in common usage as "those stinking savages" IS a serious slur against those people.
I don't value PC, but I don't go out of my way to call people insulting names either. Savage has the right to use whatever they want as a logo, but they can't expect that nobody will wonder at their choice.
Awwww come on people, get a grip, I don't see any racism in a motorcycle company called Indian or Savage Arms using an Indian in their logo or a baseball team called the Braves, and I could go on and on.........I don't see a problem with this all this silliness has got to stop.......I sick to death about all this PC bull droppings. And just for the record, I have enough Cherokee blood in me to claim reservation rights, 
Keltoi means barbarian in Greek. From Keltoi, we get Celtic. In other words, Celtic means uncivilized people, as does savage, which is derived from the middle French silve: "of the woods."
But as an olive branch towards ATTICUS, I'll acknowledge that what are left of the "Celtic" tribes have mostly risen above the abject poverty and destitution forced upon them and they can afford to laugh at -- embrace even -- the negative stereotyped terms once used to denegrate them.
Then again, it was that laughter -- turning the enemy's slurs into badges of honor -- that helped the Irish (and other celts) shed their oppression.
But as an olive branch towards ATTICUS, I'll acknowledge that what are left of the "Celtic" tribes have mostly risen above the abject poverty and destitution forced upon them and they can afford to laugh at -- embrace even -- the negative stereotyped terms once used to denegrate them.
Then again, it was that laughter -- turning the enemy's slurs into badges of honor -- that helped the Irish (and other celts) shed their oppression.
Bottom Gun
New member
I have great fear and respect for the "Fighting Irish" having been married to one years ago. 
Mike Irwin
Staff
Hey, does this qualify as Savage Bashing, as defined by the threads currently working over in "Art of the Rifle?"
Geez, I hope not...
Geez, I hope not...
So, should Savage Arms drop the Native American in favor of a Ghandi type Indian from India?
Modernly I don't think anybody thinks that Native Americans are "savages" and if anything, their lifestyle and art is studied and cherished by a lot of "white" Americans. In many of houses in the countryside that I visted I observed "Indian" decor including beadwork, arrowheads, pictures, art, etc. Being a "city boy", I was fascinated that "country folk" have taken such a great interest to such things.
Modernly I don't think anybody thinks that Native Americans are "savages" and if anything, their lifestyle and art is studied and cherished by a lot of "white" Americans. In many of houses in the countryside that I visted I observed "Indian" decor including beadwork, arrowheads, pictures, art, etc. Being a "city boy", I was fascinated that "country folk" have taken such a great interest to such things.
Once again: I don't think that many reasonable people have problems with names like brave, warrior, chief, tribe, etc. But names like Savage and Redskin are different.
Consider the following: (I'll use the term Indian for simplification)
President Bush, or the even the president of the local PTA would not, and could not, refer to an Indian as a Redskin or Savage without being in deep sh*t. I can just imagine Dubya announcing his new financial aid package "for the redskins". NOT!
A corporate officer would be disciplined, or even fired, for referring to Indian employees as Redskins or Savages.
A schoolteacher can't call his/her Indian students Redskins or Savages. He/she would be terminated.
A LEO would be disciplined for calling an Indian a Redskin or Savage (unless savage was a description of that persons
behavior).
A drill instructor could not refer to an Indian recruit as a Redskin or Savage.... publicly anyway. He'd get busted.
See a trend here?
But some of you believe that it's totally acceptable for corporations like Savage and the NFL to use those same slurs ...as long as YOU aren't offended?
I won't bash Savage rifles, but I will bash their marketing decisions.
Consider the following: (I'll use the term Indian for simplification)
President Bush, or the even the president of the local PTA would not, and could not, refer to an Indian as a Redskin or Savage without being in deep sh*t. I can just imagine Dubya announcing his new financial aid package "for the redskins". NOT!
A corporate officer would be disciplined, or even fired, for referring to Indian employees as Redskins or Savages.
A schoolteacher can't call his/her Indian students Redskins or Savages. He/she would be terminated.
A LEO would be disciplined for calling an Indian a Redskin or Savage (unless savage was a description of that persons
behavior).
A drill instructor could not refer to an Indian recruit as a Redskin or Savage.... publicly anyway. He'd get busted.
See a trend here?
But some of you believe that it's totally acceptable for corporations like Savage and the NFL to use those same slurs ...as long as YOU aren't offended?
I won't bash Savage rifles, but I will bash their marketing decisions.
Scott Conklin
New member
I'm German, Irish and American Indian. I perceive no slur in Kraut, fighting Irish or seeing some ancestors head as the highbeam indicator for a '55 StarCheif or an icon on a rifle makers website. Point is whether it's a team name or whatever the insult is in those who perceive it as such. It's safe to say the names weren't taken to be insulting but because those who chose them felt there was something special about carrying said name.
Of course, I am also of the opinion there are far more important things to do these days than search for vague racial slurs where none were intended.
Of course, I am also of the opinion there are far more important things to do these days than search for vague racial slurs where none were intended.
WilderBill
New member
I didn't choose their logo, wasn't even there at the time, but I suspect that it was not intended as an insult to anyone.
As I stated earlier, if it was hurting sales it would have been changed by now.
We have heard from several TFLers with some indian blood that seem to be OK with this.
Are there any of you out there with more than 1/2 indian or more accurately Native American ancestry that have been offended and/or have refused to buy Savage arms based on the logo?
The answer to that one, especially if there are several concuring answers might just settle this thread.
Maybe.
As I stated earlier, if it was hurting sales it would have been changed by now.
We have heard from several TFLers with some indian blood that seem to be OK with this.
Are there any of you out there with more than 1/2 indian or more accurately Native American ancestry that have been offended and/or have refused to buy Savage arms based on the logo?
The answer to that one, especially if there are several concuring answers might just settle this thread.
Maybe.
Fred Hansen
New member
Frijoles African-american? 
That can't be right.
That can't be right. Mike Irwin
Staff
What makes it even MORE curious is that Arthur Savage was not an American.
He was from the British Empire. I believe that he was born in Jamaica or Barbados, and for a number of years tried his hand at sheep and cattle ranching in Australia before he turned to firearms and came to the United States.
He was from the British Empire. I believe that he was born in Jamaica or Barbados, and for a number of years tried his hand at sheep and cattle ranching in Australia before he turned to firearms and came to the United States.
I'm not convinced by twisted philosophical intellect. If we want to dig deeper, lets go... into the root of the word. Where we find, that actually, it is a question of whether or not one chooses to be offended.
Even if we don't use the word Indian but focus on the word SAVAGE which has many meanings.
Stemming from the Latin word silvaticus meaning; of the woods.
Other meanings of savage (not all are insults, as you can see).
- not domesticated or under human control
- untamed
- cruel or ferocious
- uncivilized
- primitive: belonging to a primitive society.
- rude or unmannerly
Personally, being of the woods, from a primitive society, and not under human control (bondage/slavery), sounds rather complimentary. And if I was from a more warriorlike tribe, the terms ferocious and untamed would be complimentary, just as brutality in Viking warriors was a complimentary badge of honor- from whence we get words like Beserk. Hardly derogatory.
Even if we don't use the word Indian but focus on the word SAVAGE which has many meanings.
Stemming from the Latin word silvaticus meaning; of the woods.
Other meanings of savage (not all are insults, as you can see).
- not domesticated or under human control
- untamed
- cruel or ferocious
- uncivilized
- primitive: belonging to a primitive society.
- rude or unmannerly
Personally, being of the woods, from a primitive society, and not under human control (bondage/slavery), sounds rather complimentary. And if I was from a more warriorlike tribe, the terms ferocious and untamed would be complimentary, just as brutality in Viking warriors was a complimentary badge of honor- from whence we get words like Beserk. Hardly derogatory.
I am Cree. I grew up for the better part of my life on an Indian reservation in Northern Manitoba Canada. I DO find savage's logo offensive, and I choose not to purchase any of their products because of that. Am I being overly sensitive? Maybe, but would you buy from a company called "Cracker Arms"? (How long would THAT company be around?)
What's worse? The fact Savage arms uses this logo, or the fact that it's seen as "ok" by most?
What's worse? The fact Savage arms uses this logo, or the fact that it's seen as "ok" by most?
Maybe I should stop eating aunt jemima pancakes with mrs butterworth's syrup because it portrays black women merely as servants, or worse yet, slaves working in the kitchen?
Savage arms has been around since 1894, according to their history. I'm assuming that there's a story behind their logo. I'm also not assuming or infering anything about their logo until I know the story behind it. I don't want to be like the people who want to change the names of places with 'squaw' in their names because oprah told them it was a slur (oprah was wrong).
And if anyone here has ever laughed at a 'polish' joke, I'm deeply offended. However, I will accept a case of ammo as restitution.
Savage arms has been around since 1894, according to their history. I'm assuming that there's a story behind their logo. I'm also not assuming or infering anything about their logo until I know the story behind it. I don't want to be like the people who want to change the names of places with 'squaw' in their names because oprah told them it was a slur (oprah was wrong).
And if anyone here has ever laughed at a 'polish' joke, I'm deeply offended. However, I will accept a case of ammo as restitution.
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