Bruce in West Oz
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Go for it guys ...
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Gasp! Shock! Savage Arms use an ... Indian!!!
- Thread starter Bruce in West Oz
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Viking is a noun/ adjective, as is Native American, or Irish.
Redskin, Savage, Indian, etc. are racial stereotypes/slurs. As I pointed out a month or so ago on TFL, we would never consider calling Washington DC's football team the "Dune Coons" Or The New York Giants the “The NY Kikes”....so why is Redskins acceptable??? Apparently, ingrained racism is acceptable to many, particularly when applied to native Americans, while it is not acceptable when applied to foreign terrorists, or very recent immigrants. I won't even get started on the poor economic, social and health conditions that indigenous people face today, in what used to be their country. (If only the Palestinians could be so docile).
I don't see anything wrong at all with "Warriors", "Braves", "Chiefs" etc. but the racial slurs need to be changed. Native American’s have already been relegated to third class citizen status, they don’t need any further insults.
I do find the Savage site to be in poor taste. There is a difference between being politiaclly correct and blatantly offensive. Correct vs right. That site just ain't right.
Ohio - Home of Tecumseh (The Ronald Reagan of Native Americans)
Redskin, Savage, Indian, etc. are racial stereotypes/slurs. As I pointed out a month or so ago on TFL, we would never consider calling Washington DC's football team the "Dune Coons" Or The New York Giants the “The NY Kikes”....so why is Redskins acceptable??? Apparently, ingrained racism is acceptable to many, particularly when applied to native Americans, while it is not acceptable when applied to foreign terrorists, or very recent immigrants. I won't even get started on the poor economic, social and health conditions that indigenous people face today, in what used to be their country. (If only the Palestinians could be so docile).
I don't see anything wrong at all with "Warriors", "Braves", "Chiefs" etc. but the racial slurs need to be changed. Native American’s have already been relegated to third class citizen status, they don’t need any further insults.
I do find the Savage site to be in poor taste. There is a difference between being politiaclly correct and blatantly offensive. Correct vs right. That site just ain't right.
Ohio - Home of Tecumseh (The Ronald Reagan of Native Americans)
Personally, I would not be offended if NYC team wanted to call THEMSELVES "Butt-kicking Kikes". If THEY want to be know as such, what's the problem? Most ethnic or social groups use "deragotory" terms in daily conversation for humor value. Maybe I have a thick skin or something...
Fighting Irish isn't a racial slur either. A stereotype yes, but not a racial slur. I'm part Irish myself and I consider that term to be quite complimentary. But I also have a portrait of my Cherokee Great Grandma hanging on my living room wall. She was neither a redskin or savage. This seems pretty plain and simple to me folks. If your someone who can't live happily without using words like nigger, wop, or redskin... and isn't able to comprehend that all three are the same, then this writing is lost on you anyway.
Hey, at least it wasn't an Indian head with scope crosshairs over it.
I used to love the red Indian head that lit up on my Pontaic dash when I turned the brights on.
Funny thing is, more white folks who claim they have indian ancestry are more upset about usage of 'racial slurs' than the real indians are. And when I say real, I don't mean 'raised white' indians, but the real traditionals. Aren't many, and they keep a low profile.
I used to love the red Indian head that lit up on my Pontaic dash when I turned the brights on.
Funny thing is, more white folks who claim they have indian ancestry are more upset about usage of 'racial slurs' than the real indians are. And when I say real, I don't mean 'raised white' indians, but the real traditionals. Aren't many, and they keep a low profile.
Do you know what really amazes me about this topic. It’s that those who always defend the rights of women, blacks, Mexicans, Canadians, and oh God yes… Arabs, VEHEMENTLY defend their perceived right to offend Native Americans. And all others stand quietly by, while those people exercise that right. Sermon complete.
ATTICUS, huh?
I don't see anyone on this thread bad-mouthing "Native Americans" as you so eloquently titled. Calling a Native American an Indian, isn't an insult to many, and probably wouldn't be if it wasn't for P.C. people like yourself harping hyphenated adjective titles and calling anyone behind the modern feel-good times bigoted.
Because people buy Savage rifles doesn't mean they hate Indians... One reason I have a difficult time with P.C. people (of ANY ethnicity, race or creed) is because they always look into everything as insulting and make something of NOTHING.
If your post didn't imply any of this, I misunderstood your post and apologise.
I don't see anyone on this thread bad-mouthing "Native Americans" as you so eloquently titled. Calling a Native American an Indian, isn't an insult to many, and probably wouldn't be if it wasn't for P.C. people like yourself harping hyphenated adjective titles and calling anyone behind the modern feel-good times bigoted.
Because people buy Savage rifles doesn't mean they hate Indians... One reason I have a difficult time with P.C. people (of ANY ethnicity, race or creed) is because they always look into everything as insulting and make something of NOTHING.
If your post didn't imply any of this, I misunderstood your post and apologise.
The term Native American itself is fairly meaningless.
I am a native American as much as any other -I was born in this country. Simple as that.
Private enterprises can call themselves anything they want. If it upsets enough folk, who will vote with their feet & $, the enterprise can change or not as they see fit based on the economic harm caused by their decisions.
'Course, we all have the wherewithall to be as upset as we'd like as well.
Non issue as far as I'm concerned.
I am a native American as much as any other -I was born in this country. Simple as that.
Private enterprises can call themselves anything they want. If it upsets enough folk, who will vote with their feet & $, the enterprise can change or not as they see fit based on the economic harm caused by their decisions.
'Course, we all have the wherewithall to be as upset as we'd like as well.
Non issue as far as I'm concerned.
Atticus,
"Fighting Irish" most certainly is a slur -- it conjurs the negative 18th and 19th century stereotypes about the Irish -- nothing but a bunch of drunken brawlers -- good to have next to you in a fight, but no one that you'd associate with in polite company (and lordy lock up the women!)
Add to that the Notre Dame mascot. He really reminds me of the big-upper-lipped simian characatures of the Irish that English magazines like Puck ran in the 18th and 19th centuries. Those Irish, nothing but a bunch of stupid brawling subhumans...of course we have to run their island for them. Flee to America, Paddy, where you'll still see signs "No Irish Allowed."
By the way, if Notre Dame wants to rename themselves the Drunken Bogtrotting Micks, this Native American of 100% European decent, mostly Irish, won't complain.
Besides, I always thought my favorite NFL football team was named after the redskin potato salad I eat in the parking lot before the game.
That Aboriginal American painted in the endzone makes more sense now! In any event, by the time Dan and Marty are through with the team, there won't be anything left to complain about.
"Fighting Irish" most certainly is a slur -- it conjurs the negative 18th and 19th century stereotypes about the Irish -- nothing but a bunch of drunken brawlers -- good to have next to you in a fight, but no one that you'd associate with in polite company (and lordy lock up the women!)
Add to that the Notre Dame mascot. He really reminds me of the big-upper-lipped simian characatures of the Irish that English magazines like Puck ran in the 18th and 19th centuries. Those Irish, nothing but a bunch of stupid brawling subhumans...of course we have to run their island for them. Flee to America, Paddy, where you'll still see signs "No Irish Allowed."
By the way, if Notre Dame wants to rename themselves the Drunken Bogtrotting Micks, this Native American of 100% European decent, mostly Irish, won't complain.
Besides, I always thought my favorite NFL football team was named after the redskin potato salad I eat in the parking lot before the game.
That Aboriginal American painted in the endzone makes more sense now! In any event, by the time Dan and Marty are through with the team, there won't be anything left to complain about.Me PC? Don't think so. Courteous and respectful of the right of others...raised by the Golden rule...yes, and yes. Well.. usually anyway.
Indian is a word created by Europeans to describe indigenous tribes. It's not offensive ...just inaccurate. I'll repeat this again for the reading impaired - Using terms like "Redskin" as a nickname for our capitols football team, underscores the deep seated and long accepted prejudice toward "Indians". A similar racial slur toward any other ethnic group, for the purpose of naming a sports team, would not be tolerated ...period.
It is amazing to me that a company called "Savage" would build a theme around "Indians" and have a "click on the Indians head to go to the home page" icon. There is no other group of people in the US that could be treated with such disrespect....but then again, I'm gaining a much better understanding of that phenomena.
Indian is a word created by Europeans to describe indigenous tribes. It's not offensive ...just inaccurate. I'll repeat this again for the reading impaired - Using terms like "Redskin" as a nickname for our capitols football team, underscores the deep seated and long accepted prejudice toward "Indians". A similar racial slur toward any other ethnic group, for the purpose of naming a sports team, would not be tolerated ...period.
It is amazing to me that a company called "Savage" would build a theme around "Indians" and have a "click on the Indians head to go to the home page" icon. There is no other group of people in the US that could be treated with such disrespect....but then again, I'm gaining a much better understanding of that phenomena.
WilderBill
New member
I suppose any large corporation that sells to the general public needs some sort of logo.
If it didn't work for them they would change it.
As for the steriotypes - it's only predjuditial if you single out one group. Now, if you include everyone equally, well that's different.
Equal opportunity logos for all!
Another thought:
If you aren't Native American then you are either an imigrant or desended from imigrants.
If you are then ...hey didn't ya'll just walk across what is now the Bering Strait only 10,000 years back!
If it didn't work for them they would change it.
As for the steriotypes - it's only predjuditial if you single out one group. Now, if you include everyone equally, well that's different.
Equal opportunity logos for all!
Another thought:
If you aren't Native American then you are either an imigrant or desended from imigrants.
If you are then ...hey didn't ya'll just walk across what is now the Bering Strait only 10,000 years back!
It is -- Fighting Irish. Nothing but a bunch of low life, drunken fighting Irish. But I'd love to have them next to me in a fight or next to me on the football field.
Fighting Irish was chosen to conjur up the viciousness associated with the Irish. That fighting reputation was laced with negative stereotyping.
You can pretend that "Fighting Irish" is not based in a negative ethnic slur all you want. That doesn't change the fact that it is.
My point was simply that some people are hell-bent on being offended, and will always find something to be offended about.
Didn't the term "redskin" come into usage due more to the practice of some tribes of using a clay-based body paint that gave them a reddish appearance? The Picts, a pre-Scot people of northern Britain, used to paint themselves blue. I doubt anyone would be up in arms over a team calling itself the "Blueskins" in reference to the warrior Picts.
Similarly the word "slave" comes from Slav. Our word for a bonded human with no rights refers to an entire segment of humanity, but I guess Slavic people in America aren't in on the lucrative monopoly of offendedness.
Didn't the term "redskin" come into usage due more to the practice of some tribes of using a clay-based body paint that gave them a reddish appearance? The Picts, a pre-Scot people of northern Britain, used to paint themselves blue. I doubt anyone would be up in arms over a team calling itself the "Blueskins" in reference to the warrior Picts.
Similarly the word "slave" comes from Slav. Our word for a bonded human with no rights refers to an entire segment of humanity, but I guess Slavic people in America aren't in on the lucrative monopoly of offendedness.
This is where I think this whole argument gets muttered and subjective. Who decides what is offensive? ATTICUS are you really able to speak for all Irishman? You know if somebody called me a Tex-Mex cowboy and they were a friend I'd say damn straight! If they were of any other persuasion I would probably be pissed off. But that doesn't mean I would care if there is a mascot somewhere like the S.D. State Aztecs or The Dallas Cowboys. I think for the most part I have other things to worry about.
Plus some of the arguments of the people offended by such "slurs" are pretty lame. For real world occurance I once worked stocking shelves in a grocery store when a coworker (AfricanAerican) was upset that while stocking shelves in the Mexican food section, he came accross cans that were labeled "Frijoles Negros". I explained to him that Negro in Spanish means black as in color and that all the can said was it contained black beans. Needless to say he thought that the Spanish Language should be changed. Duhh?(what do you say to that type of brilliance?) In most cases I am unmoved about these people's feelings on this subject. If you dont want me to refer to you as something fine. But otherwise step off and let the world pass by, because in the grand scale it doesn't much matter.
just my 2cents.
Plus some of the arguments of the people offended by such "slurs" are pretty lame. For real world occurance I once worked stocking shelves in a grocery store when a coworker (AfricanAerican) was upset that while stocking shelves in the Mexican food section, he came accross cans that were labeled "Frijoles Negros". I explained to him that Negro in Spanish means black as in color and that all the can said was it contained black beans. Needless to say he thought that the Spanish Language should be changed. Duhh?(what do you say to that type of brilliance?) In most cases I am unmoved about these people's feelings on this subject. If you dont want me to refer to you as something fine. But otherwise step off and let the world pass by, because in the grand scale it doesn't much matter.
just my 2cents.
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