Gaming vs. Training

Firearms handling, manipulation and shooting skills ...

... applied to known sporting/competition scenarios or fighting situations.

If someone gains mastery of their shooting skillset doing something, and they enjoy doing it, what's the problem?

This reminds me of when 60's/70's martial artists were hesitant to go out and try their skills against practitioners from other styles & methods. It's naturally easier to only practice against known and familiar opponents and methods in familiar conditions and circumstances. Practicing yours skills in new and different situations can help you identify any "lack" in your training & practice, as well as help you learn where your training may need to be broadened and improved.

I've known firearms instructors who were hesitant to demonstrate their skills in front of either the people they were teaching or other instructors. Frustrating. Yes, being watched and "evaluated" is uncomfortable for most people. Once that reluctance (fear?) was overcome, though, many of them quickly realized that they could really benefit from having the experience of demonstrating their skillset "on the clock", in front of a number of knowledgeable and skilled observers.

Human nature has to be understood and addressed in order for continued skills improvement to occur.

Now, learning and applying a working knowledge of tactics, so it can be applied in conjunction with firearms skillsets in different situations?

Guess it depends whether your "tactics" are going to be useful for gaming and making points according to known rules ... or preventing someone from putting holes or blades in you when rules aren't observed by your "opponent".
 
seems to me that a decent instructor would tell his/her students up front what they will learn at that class, if it involves a shooting drill, he would show it up front (say the el Presidente drill in a certain time limit), and then....then he would have each student run that drill without instruction and training as a baseline, the class would happen, and to close things out, they would run that drill again to see if they improved and learned what was being taught.
 
If someone gains mastery of their shooting skillset doing something, and they enjoy doing it, what's the problem?
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I once knew a really big Korean kid who was masterful in his exhibition of martial art forms. I have never seen anyone better than this kid and he always drew a crowd who were equally impressed. The odd thing is that this same kid could not spar and would lose every match. One day there were these soldier guys hanging around and they were watching this kid. One soldier could simply not believe how poorly he sparred after watching his forms a few days earlier.

One of the other soldiers who was there stated that the reason the kid would lose his matches was because he was dancing and his opponent was fighting. He stated that [yes] the kid was brilliant at forms but it was just a dance to him. He did not have the practical skill or knowledge to understand how to apply those techniques in physical combat or in the face of real resistance.


Gun games are what they are and there is nothing wrong with them. I do find it difficult to draw an equivalence between gun games and SD training.
 
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One of the other soldiers who was there stated that the reason the kid would lose his matches was because he was dancing and his opponent was fighting.
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Reminds me of when I was teaching some self defense classes in the 70's in a Shotokan dojo. I had a dismaying (to me, at the time) number of students in the 5 classes I taught each afternoon & night who were paying good money to take the classes, but who were clearly unwilling to think about actually using the training in a real situation.

One day the mother of a 16 year old boy was watching him perform (very well), and asked if she should continue to pay for more advanced classes for him. In a moment of frankness I told her that her son was very good, but she might be better off enrolling him in dance classes, as he didn't have the inner drive and ability to do more than dance. Oddly enough, she wasn't happy hearing that suggestion.
 
I often wonder about that. God forbid I should ever find myself in a gunfight, but I guarantee that if such should occur, I will be doing my very best to kill my opponent, not display my "cool" marksmanship, demonstrate my fancy footwork, or stand around considering whether to use system A or technique B.

Jim
 
Not a great comparison, in my opinion as a trainer. I would compare a martial arts program the does not have sparing the equivalent of going to regular firearms training that only does dry fire and never advocates doing anything else.
 
I agree James K.

One of the occasionally frustrating things about students learning "techniques" is that a lot of them seem to think that some "technique" is the ultimate end-result and goal, in and of itself, and isn't merely a transitional learning technique that's supposed to lead to smooth, subconsciously applied competency as may be required for conditions (even when the conditions are evolving, changing and may be chaotic).
 
I was just recently reading a thread on the subject on Pistol Forum, the late T.L. Green's shop. One coach said "think street, train sport, practice the art".

I summarize, if you can't shoot, how will you shoot back?
 
One coach said "think street, train sport, practice the art".
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Nice version. :) Practical and grounded.

There's one in the arts which basically describes the transition of students as studying "fighting", then technique, then art, and finally spirit.

Fighting = Basic defense-oriented skills
Technique = Higher refinement of physical skills
Art = Seeing and understanding the meaning underlying technique
Spirit = Integration of understanding technique, art & self, on the path to spiritual enlightenment
 
My Brain works on MANY LEVELS Unfortunately my Elevator just does not get to those Levels sometimes..

Some very good info guys thanks.
 
I have shot competitively off and on for over 20 years, and focus more now on tactical training instead of USPSA/IDPA. One of the reasons for that is after 20 years of shooting to win matches, a lot of bad habits developed that interfere with shooting to survive, like in a match putting the muzzle past the barricade to engage targets when real world putting the muzzle past a wall or doorway into a room or hallway that has not been cleared could result in your firearm being taken away from you.

Also as I age and grow a lower tolerance for silliness :), I notice at most matches I have recently attended it was a little bit of shooting, a lot of waiting, with arguing in between.

All the best,
Leon
 
Very good points..

gun games seem to mimic self defense situations only to the degree that its entertaining and not really in a manner that I would consider strategic or practical. I am not saying that it should but a lot of people seem to think its all the same thing when really, its not.
 
Very interesting discussions, opinions.

Opinion on IDPA. You must use the same pistol you carry, same holster.

Factory rounds, not the expensive hollow points you carry! But similar recoil, and point of aim. And no string vests! My Florida shirts work fine in the coffee shop, or match. The lock back reload is great practice.

My best training? Five years, part time Bouncer in the Clubs in Liverpool UK, most every weekend. Learning to instantly respond to threat (now in the early sixty's, we started nearly all fights) watching people is a great pastime.

Carry always! Sitting here now in my old ratty gown, Glock 19, one in the pipe, in pocket, and Cell IPhone, in the other.

Gaming? No Glock or other target model, the 19 is small enough, full enough, 16 up. TruGlo sights, most trouble comes in poor light. And you might need a bunch of rounds! Firing 4 rounds into someone's upper chest, and move? A Chiefs Special? You have one round left, not so good.
 
FireForged said:
One of the other soldiers who was there stated that the reason the kid would lose his matches was because he was dancing and his opponent was fighting.
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That analogy breaks down because in practicing forms and kata, you are not actually hitting anything or anybody.

This would be like if USPSA or IDPA didn't have scoring zones or timers and just graded competitors on their form in gun handling as they dumped rounds into the dirt.

One thing that I've noted with almost one-hundred percent correlation over the years is that people who shun the various action shooting sports because "training scars" or whatnot can't shoot on the clock in front of people.

I'll reiterate my quote from Brian Searcy:
"Having shot almost every type of competetive [sic] sport from skeet to bull's-eye to Service Rifle and IPSC, Searcy believes it is impossible to improve without shooting in competition, as you will inevitably plateau if shooting only on a square range by yourself. The stress of being against the clock, against other shooters and having an audience watch you forces you to develop the mental management necessary to execute the correct subconscious weapons handling skills under pressure."
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It's not about being a "combat simulation", it's about developing the skills necessary to run your gun at speed and under pressure with a minimum of brainpower put into the basic gun-handling skills of hitting the target, keeping the gun running, and not setting yourself on fire.
 
The point being that if you know how to perform "moves" but do not understand how to apply those moves practically, tactically or the strategics behind the method... it can be called a dance. I was basically offering a true story as an idiom and not to be dissected into literalness.

It's not about being a "combat simulation", it's about developing the skills necessary to run your gun at speed and under pressure with a minimum of brainpower put into the basic gun-handling skills of hitting the target, keeping the gun running, and not setting yourself on fire.
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if you are talking about the context of a game and game play, I agree. If the point is to develop self defense skills, I would say that context is important and without property context, which includes correct strategics, its not really training. Although I concede that it is training for more competition which mimics self defense situations in a nuancical way .
 
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It teaches some useful skills. It does induce stress. But I think that it is essential to include some type of force on force training. With the advent of airsoft and other systems of the like you actually get to fight with a gun similar to the one you carry. Against a live target that is actually trying to out think and out shoot you. That's about as good as it get's and maintain some type of safety.
Clearing jammed weapons, reloads, so on all good. But still no bad guy makes a timers noise that I know of before an attack. But like most things add everything you can to your bag of tricks. As one of my instructors once said. "You may not like what the other guy is doing. But you damn well better know what he's doing"!
 
I had to get to advanced self defense classes before they taught me anything that I wasn't far better at due to competition.

If we are limiting this to your average Joe Blow walking down the street: frankly most of it way overkill (pardon the pun).
They need (based on my years of experience as an internet grandmaster ninja):
*training to help with situational awareness, to avoid the situation.
*training to help pre think several simple key scenarios, and warning signs associated with them, to again avoid the situation or better have an idea of when and how to react.
*how to draw and shoot quickly.

Force on force, dynamic entry etc etc. are all excellent, but way overboard for what is needed for the average Joe. I don't need to know how to slice the pie and use door frames to advantage if I am going to sit in a secure position with 911 online while pointing a shotgun at the only entry.
 
Force on force, dynamic entry etc etc. are all excellent, but way overboard for what is needed for the average Joe. I don't need to know how to slice the pie and use door frames to advantage if I am going to sit in a secure position with 911 online while pointing a shotgun at the only entry.
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oh my..

I am sure that as long as you expect to have complete command of the situation, you surely will.
 
Guns can be used for sport and they can be used for SD.

I think initially the IDPA had good intentions but has turned more towards a sporting event. That's not to say it offers no merit to practical gun handling under stress. But as has been mentioned I think it can also induce a lot of bad habits.

I had been considering getting into IDPA for a while but as of lately am more interested in tactical SD training, and am looking into places that offer it.


I won't look down on what anyone does but there's definitely a difference between a sporting event and SD training.
 
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