Full Auto - of any real use?

Anyone remember the guy who used an AC 556 in a road rage defense situation?

Found a link that had a written account...

From sufficientvelocity.com
The Incident

Sunday, February 24, 1984, approximately 2 PM. Gary Fadden, 26, and his lovely 22 year old fiancee are driving from a birthday party in Martinsburg, WV, into Virginia to look at some property for what they hope will be their starter home after their marriage. It's a bitterly cold day, and with the winter coats in the back of a new '84 Ford F-250 supercab 4WD diesel pickup, the Pendleton-clad Fadden looks from a distance like a harmless Yuppie. That means he and the pretty brunette look like prey to another kind of person.

Heading east on Rt. 50, they are passed by a Harley-Davidson motorcycle with two people astride, the operator cutting in front of him so sharply that he has to brake suddenly. Gary comments to his fiancee how cold they must be riding a bike on a low 30s day, and that driving as carelessly as he is, the cyclist needs to worry about sudden patches of ice.

A few minutes later, he spots a Chevy pickup in his rearview mirrors. It contains three people. One passenger is gesturing to him to pull over. Gary doesn't know what these scruffy guys want and he ignores them. But then he sees the passenger waving a knife, and the driver bringing up a revolver.

Gary says to his fiancee, in what will probably be the understatement of his life, "We've got a bit of a problem here."



Pursuit

It is 1984, long before the universal coming of cell phones, and there is no other communications in the vehicle. They are entering Middleburg, a town of perhaps 800, and stop at a red light. Behind them, Gary can see both males exit their truck and run toward him. The driver's hand is actually on Gary's door handle when he pops the clutch and sends his new truck screeching through the intersection against the light. The two men run back to their older pickup, and the chase is on.

They're almost on his bumper. Gary accelerates, hitting open road now, zig-zagging between reaching 95 miles an hour when the speed governor cuts in. Not only are the pursuers keeping pace but he sees the driver aiming a revolver at him out his window. Honking his horn and flashing his lights when he runs into a cluster of automobiles, passing them sometimes on the shoulder of the road and spraying rooster-tails of gravel, Gary still cannot elude the truck behind him.

Gary is desperately looking for a police car he can flag down. He doesn't see one. The chase has gone for 22 miles now and they're getting into a more compact area again. Coming up is an intersection tic knows well: he goes through it every day on his way to work. Even on Sunday it will be clogged. He forms a plan quickly: if the light is in his favor, he'll go through it and keep going, hoping to find police in a more populated area. If the light is against him, he'll turn right, and make for the plant where he works on Chantilly Road.

The light stays red. Gary cuts hard right, heading for what he hopes will be the sanctuary of the workplace. Behind him, he can see that the pursuers haven't given up an inch. "I've got my pass card through the gates and the front door," he tells his fiancee urgently. "We'll get into the building and we can hide. They can't find us. We'll call the cops from there."

He pulls into the front area of the plant, the automatic mechanism taking an achingly long time to raise the gate. As the gate opens, the pursuing truck comes to a stop behind his, both men jumping out and running to Gary's Ford, their hands clawing at his door handles. He guns the engine and gels away from them, sweeping up to the front door and locking up the brakes in a skid.

The plant is Heckler and Koch.

Gary Fadden is a salesman for HK, and among the rest of their firearms, he sells machine guns. In the truck with him is a competitor's weapon he has acquired to test, a Ruger AC556, the selective-fire assault version of the .223 Mini-14. He grabs it now as he throws open the truck door, hoping to hold them off at gunpoint. lie knows his fiancee can't make it to the building's door now, and he screams to her to get down on the floor of the Ford.



The Shooting

The passenger is running toward him, an average size man in ratty clothes with stringy hair, a long beard, and an expression of absolute rage.

The selector switch and manual safety of the AC556 are in two different locations. Gary has not yet fired this weapon and, though he has taken off the safety, he doesn't know whether the switch is set for semi, three-shot burst, or full auto. He yells "Stop or I'll shoot," points the muzzle upward, and pulls the trigger for a warning shot.

The weapon is set on full automatic. Everything is going into deep slow motion, and Gary is aware that the Ruger spits a burst of nine shots before he can get his finger back off the trigger.

There is no effect whatsoever. The attacker is still running at him, perhaps ten yards away and closing fast, reaching for knives at his belt with each hand. The assailant screams, "F*** you and your high powered rifle! I'm gonna kill you motherf***ers!"

And Gary Fadden has run out of time. He lowers the Ruger, points it at the charging knifer, and pulls the trigger one more time. in the ethereal slow motion of profound tachypsychia, Gary can see the spent .223 shells arcing lazily out of the mechanism. He stops the burst, aware that six shots have been fired, as the man in front of him falls heavily to the ground.

Gary moves quickly, putting a big brick planter between himself and the onrushing pickup as cover. The truck stops and the driver, the larger of the two bearded men, shrieks. "F*** you! You killed one of the brothers! You shot him, you motherf***er!" Gary's weapon is level and ready, but this time instead of waving the revolver, the man looks as if he's trying to hide it in the cab of his truck. Gary can see now that the third person in the truck, the one who has always stayed in the cab, is a woman.

And then, the police are there. "They've got guns," Gary shouts to the officers disgorging from two patrol cars. He sets his rifle down and steps back as the officers swarm the pickup truck, taking the surviving man and woman into custody. In a moment, a cop is standing with Gary. "I did it," Gary says. The cop answers, "Did what?" "I shot that man." The officer picks up the AC556. "It's loaded," Gary warns, "Do you want me to unload it'?" The policeman answers. "No, I'll do it. Why don't you sit down?"

Gary Fadden sits on the curb. For a moment, it seems as if the whole bizarre nightmare is over. Unfortunately, it has only begun.



Aftermath

The man he had shot. Billy "Too Loose" Hamilton, was dead. He had been hit by all six rounds of Winchester 55 grain FMJ, headstamped "'WCC81." One bullet had struck behind the lateral midline in the instant that he turned away from the gunfire, taking out a chunk of his spine as is skidded across his back from side to side. This would be interpreted later by the prosecutor as having been "shot in the back."

The partner, who went by the name of "Papa Zoot," had gotten his weapons out of his hands by the time police arrived. In the front of the five-year-old Chevy pickup that had chased Fadden for more than 20 miles, police found a .22 auto pistol and a four-inch Smith & Wesson L-frame .357 Magnum. The revolver had three live and three empty cartridges in the cylinder. More fired brass was on the floor, and a plastic bag with more live amino was open on the seat. Though Fadden heard no shots and no bullets hit his truck, he was convinced then and now that they were shooting at him during the chase.

Hamilton's two knives, a Schrade folding hunter and a nondescript fixed blade, were found with his corpse.

Gary Fadden was arrested that night and charged with 1st degree murder. His family raised $60,000 bail. He hired DC attorney Gerry Treanor to defend him. Treanor, at Gary's request, retained John Farnam and I as expert witnesses. Today, Gary remembers, "Two prosecutors wouldn't touch it until the third took it. It was all political because of the automatic weapon."

The weeklong trial took place in October of 1984. Word had reached Gary that Papa Zoot had bought a .30/06 rifle and sworn a "blood oath" to kill him. I was driving toward Fairfax County when I got the message from Gary's lawyer that John and I wouldn't be needed because the prosecution had self-destructed.

On the stand, Papa Zoot and the woman had testified that Gary had tried to run their biker brother off the road, and they had just followed 22 miles to get his license tag. Defense lawyer Treanor took them apart on cross-examination. An undercover detective broke his cover to testify that the deceased and Papa Zoot "put a bomb in my car. They like to rough people up." The prosecutor made such a show of waving the machine gun that the judge made a point of instructing the jury that the death weapon had nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the shooting was self-defense. The jury learned that Gary purchased the AC-556 personally and that it was perfectly legal to possess the weapon.

By the start of trial, the charge had been dropped to second-degree murder, and as the trial collapsed around the prosecutor's ears, he offered a plea to manslaughter, which Gary flatly rejected. At the end, when it was announced that the jury had found Gary Fadden Not Guilty on all counts, Fadden recalls that the self-same prosecutor snapped--in open court, in front of Gary's mother--"'You've let a murderer loose!"

"'H&K protected me," says Gary. "They picked up the tab for about half of my legal bills, and got all the publicity for it, until I quit a few years later. Florian Deltgen (at that time CEO at HK) told me after an argument with the vice president that one or the other of us probably had to go, and the vice president wasn't going anywhere. I accepted a job offer from Beretta USA and then resigned from H&K. Deltgen stuck me with the remaining bill, which I paid off at 10% interest." The bill had amounted to more than $45,000. Gary was 34 years old before he had paid everything back.

Dr. Deltgen is no longer with Heckler and Koch.



Lessons

Have communication. In 1984, only the rich had phones in their cars. Today, Gary Fadden is never without a charged-up cell phone. He knows that if he'd had one that day he could have called the police, who would have been able to interdict his pursuers before the thing became a killing situation.

Flight can trigger pursuit. Prey that flees inflames the pursuit instinct of predators. This is why we teach our children never to run from snarling dogs. Gary Fadden did what society told him to do when facing criminals: he ran. They chased. By the time they caught up with him, Billy Hamilton was in such a rage to kill that he could not be deterred.

Understand how deterrence really works. Papa Zoot and Too Loose had guns and amino and knives in their truck with them. In Gary's truck were a Remington Nylon 66.22 rifle (for plinking, and never touched during the incident), a 9mm HK VP70Z pistol, and the AC556 with enough amino for perhaps tour full magazines. None were loaded at the start. The pistol was loaded and placed in the console during the chase, and the rifle was at that point loaded and placed conspicuously on the dashboard by Gary in hopes that it would deter file pursuit. It did not.

When Gary Fadden stepped out of his new Ford at the climax of the chase, most of us would have seen him as an intimidating presence. The man stands six feet eight and weighed 260 pounds at the time, and he was holding a machine gun. His pursuers were unimpressed.

Later identified as belonging to one of the "big four" outlaw motorcycle clubs, Too Loose and Papa Zoot were members of an armed subculture themselves. They did not fear guns. Zoot was about 6'4" and 240 himself, and neither man feared big guys dressed like something off the cover of an L.L. Bean catalog. It is critical to understand this: Criminals don't fear guns. Criminals fear resolutely armed men or women they believe will actually shoot them.

22 miles of running away from them had left these wolves convinced that they were dealing with a large sheep, not the sharp-fanged sheepdog Gary Fadden turned out to be. Testimony that "they liked to rough people up" shows that they had a lot of ego invested in brutalizing others. Perhaps Hamilton, in his last moment on earth, took Fadden's warning burst as an indication of unwillingness to shoot him. Toxicology screen after death showed Hamilton to have a .19% blood alcohol content. This is a level of intoxication consistent with inhibitions being at their lowest. Gary Fadden sums it up today, "The mouse had run, and the cat was loose. Physical size was no deterrent. The gun was no deterrent with these people. If you pull a gun, you'd better be ready to use it."

Politically incorrect "assault weapons" make politically incorrect defendants. Though he didn't say it in so many words, prosecutor Jack Robbins' case against Fadden seemed to be, "I say, Muffy, people of breeding simply don't shoot criminals with machine guns in Fairfax County! Now, had he used a civilized weapon like a Browning Superposed ... and preferably shot him on the rise ... "

You and I know that Class III holders are the ultimate "card carrying good guys and gals." That particular card says they have been investigated for six months by the Federal government and been found trustworthy to possess machine guns. Unfortunately, most of the public in the jury pool, and most politically motivated prosecutors, don't know that. Every self-defense shooting I've run across with a Class III weapon, however justified, has at the very least ended with the shooter facing a grand jury. Asked what he thinks would have happened if he'd shot Hamilton with a Remington 870 Wingmaster instead, Fadden replies with certainty, "I would have gone home that night. I've told dozens of people since, 'Do not use a Class III weapon for personal defense."' Today, the guns Gary is likely to have in his car have neutral images: an M-1 .30 carbine, and a 10mm Glock 20 pistol.

Be there for your friends. It was stunning how many people he had trusted shunned Gary after the shooting, and particularly, after his indictment. He cherishes those who stood beside him through the ordeal, particularly Jim Stone and Rick DeMilt and, most particularly, knife-maker Al Mar.

Much later, after his AC556 had been returned to him by the courts, Gary gave that gun to Al Mar, another man who appreciated a fine weapon of any kind. On its stock was a brass plate engraved "To Al Mar, Because You Understand."

Gary says, "For twenty years now, I've cherished every morning I've gotten up, because I earned every moment of my life. I fought for it."

After Al Mar's death, Gary Fadden scraped up the money to buy his knife business, and he is CEO of Al Mar Knives to this day. One good man carrying on the work of another. It seems fitting.
 
Full auto fire is usefull when you want to cross the street without the opposition being able to fire upon you. It's also usefull if you what to interrupt a conference and total the confers.

Deaf
 
Well, if the Fadden case demonstrates that we should not use full auto for self defense because it might look bad to the jury, then do we apply the same logic that we can't use 10mm revolvers with hollowpoint ammunition like Harold Fish because it may look bad to the jury, or any other firearm for that matter because some over zealous prosecutor vilified something about it in court - too big, too powerful, too many rounds, etc.?

Just like with any other gun, pick your full auto carefully and learn to use it properly. Nowadays there are plenty of suppressors and compensators that will help control recoil and muzzle climb quite well on various calibers and 3 round burst is a nice feature on many as well.
 
Well, if the Fadden case demonstrates that we should not use full auto for self defense because it might look bad to the jury, then do we apply the same logic that we can't use 10mm revolvers with hollowpoint ammunition like Harold Fish because it may look bad to the jury, or any other firearm for that matter because some over zealous prosecutor vilified something about it in court - too big, too powerful, too many rounds, etc.?
Yes.

Whatever you use, you need to be able to articulate your use of the weapon as a reasonable citizen to a layman jury. A weapon or ammunition widely used by your local police and/or many private citizens may help you with that justification.


Ayoob on machine guns, SBRs, silencers and inflamatory markings on guns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5mjqLmffWY


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Wow, that Fadden case study was great. Ayoob is a great writer and instructor. Full-auto clearly played a role in the trial, but I'm not at all convinced that the same result couldn't have been achieved with a revolver.

What really caught my attention was Ayyob's assertion that fleeing road rage escalated the situation. That's a reaction that I've believed in, and even advocated for here. Does anyone know if Ayoob recommends a specific alternative response?
 
What really caught my attention was Ayyob's assertion that fleeing road rage escalated the situation. That's a reaction that I've believed in, and even advocated for here. Does anyone know if Ayoob recommends a specific alternative response?
He talks a little bit about that in this video (all audio actually):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ntvW1t9Bkk

I think the standard advice is to call 911 and follow their directions to drive to your local police station.

Wow, that Fadden case study was great. Ayoob is a great writer and instructor. Full-auto clearly played a role in the trial, but I'm not at all convinced that the same result couldn't have been achieved with a revolver
You don't want to give a prosecutor with an agenda free ammunition.

However, you can look at the Zimmerman trial to see how the prosecution came up with ridiculous attacks. They said he carried his gun with a round in the chamber "just looking for someone to shoot". They claimed he disabled the safety so his gun had a "hair trigger". He carried a Keltec that was designed with no safety (it was double action or striker fired, not sure which).


I highly recommend that anyone who cares about these things read Ayoob's most recent book on the subject (where he describes a number of trials including Zimmerman's in detail):

Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right to Self Defense

https://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Force...?ie=UTF8&qid=1484139034&sr=8-1&keywords=ayoob
 
Every year we have a big 4th of July cookout/fireworks show, the next day we play. Some years ago my mother in law stayed over and came to out machine gun shoot. After she gave one a try she asked what they were good for?

I told her the 4 hours we had been at it so far was still a lot cheaper than the 45 minutes of fireworks the not before and asked her if she thought people were having more fun or not. She understood at that point, lots of folks shoot all the time without ever having any intention of harming anything or knocking out the center of a bullseye at any given distance.

Same as there are lots of people that like to cook with no intention of getting fat.
 
Bourbon, nice that the laws have evolved to address many of the issues raised in that case 30 years ago, Stand Your Ground, Castle Doctrine, etc. Arizona has never had a "duty to retreat", thankfully, and we also recognize the right to carry lawfully owned NFA items concealed with no permit required. Yes, you can strap on your National Registry registered MP5K under your jacket in AZ and stroll about town, mindful of the signs, but if you use it, it will go bye bye for a long time while the trial goes down.
I have only been on one jury involving a firearm, and even then it was alarming the display of ignorance from my fellow jurors about firearms and how they actually work, even in this state. Bet on the jury being picked for deliberate ignorance.
 
Whoah there, Scrooge McDuck. Transferable MP5's are what, $40,000?

Do any Class III dealers offer financing? I'm thinking I would probably have to go with a 60 month loan.
 
You guys are late to the game. I only paid $800 for my MP5 (which is about all they are really worth). Then again, back in then 80's, that's what things were going for.

You can thank Ronnie for the increase, he signed the bill. :rolleyes:
 
My Ingram M11A1 SMG is just about useless as a firearm. The cyclic rate is ridiculously high; it's a two or three burst weapon for a newbie. It consumes .380 ACP at around $11 per *second* of operation; that's probably faster than you could consume $100 bills by setting them on fire. Since it's a one-hand weapon firing from an open bolt, accuracy is more like "north, south, east, west" instead of MOA. It's only a .380, but the cyclic rate makes shooting it similar to holding a rabid weasel.

On the other hand, it's loads of fun to shoot, and you can annoy bystanders by showering them with hot brass...
 
The MAC's are meant to be shot with the stock extended and using a suppressor or muzzle extension, and/or with a two hand grip. If you shoot them this way, they are quite controllable.

If you're shooting it with the stock closed and one handed, you're just asking for trouble and likely pain.

Guns like the MAC's that have the grip amidships, tend to want to rock on that axis when fired. If you're shooting them without the stock, they tend to want to run up and back towards you. I believe that's what happened with that girl who shot the instructor a few years back, and that was with the stock out yet.

When shot with the stock out, and using a two handed grip, the same as you would with your handgun, they are very controllable and easily shot.

Open bolt guns take a little getting used to at first, but are easily shot once you get used to them. The bolt travel is a bit disconcerting if you're not used to it, but easily adapted to.

You do need to be aware of a few things with the open bolts safety wise, as they do have a different manual of arms. What "looks" like the gun is safe (bolt locked open) is really just the opposite, and the gun is ready to go.

You need to drop the mag before you drop the bolt when making it safe. If you don't, the gun will fire. You also have to make sure you get the bolt fully back and locked before letting go of it. It only needs to go rearward enough to strip a round and it will likely fire if let go. Most are also are not drop safe.

These are all things that need be explained to anyone firing them prior to letting them shoot the gun. If not, you're doing so at your own and others peril.
 
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A full-auto carbine like the AR15 is quite useful. Yes, it is primarily an offensive weapon! No, it is not meant for defending oneself against muggers, but as one person has pointed out it can be useful in defending your home or business against a violent mob or gang.

All those who claim belt-fed autos are wonderful, but magazine fed full autos just waste ammo are wrong. You are forgetting several things:

1. This isn't the 1970's where M16's come in one flavor equipped with one 30 round magazine. AR/M16's come in many different calibers and configurations.

2. Drums. That's right, GOOD drums! Compact Drums. Drums that work and can keep up with burst or full-auto fire. How many 50rnd drums can you carry? I know that I can carry at least 5 or 6, perhaps more. That's up to 600 rounds! Not bad.

3. Interchangeable barreled uppers - Takes only a few seconds to swap out a barrelled upper if it gets too hot or is destroyed from sustained full-auto fire. Probably less time that it takes to change out a barrel on an M60.

4. Heavy Barrels / Fluted Barrels - can absorb and dissipate heat better than the old pencil barrel AR's.

5. Rate Reducers - if running through too much ammo is an issue or control-ability, add a rate reducer.

5.56 full-auto fire is controllable and with practice you can keep it on target. If I can do this with an AC556 in a Sage/SCAR stock, it can certainly be done with an M16.

The MAC's are meant to be shot with the stock extended and using a suppressor or muzzle extension, and/or with a two hand grip. If you shoot them this way, they are quite controllable.

As for full-auto M10's, you guys are still living in the 70's! The Lage stock is breathing new life and usefulness into the old Scar-Face gun: http://max-11.com/

For those of you who STILL think full-auto isn't as good as semi-auto; play a little paintball with a semi-auto against those with full-auto guns and then let me know how you did.
 
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