Front Sight Press AND Quick Kill??

[OBIWAN]

Mr. Temkin.....Long Time indeed.....couldn't agree more SOS

But the names keep changing...so it seems like progress

I have it on good authority that Matt is one of those people that actually can "point shoot" and do it well.

Where we differ (politely) is on whether it has a place at longer distances

Where we agree wholeheartedly is that pont shooting has been around for a long , long time...but everybody acts like they invented it this week!

And where the whole discussion (always) falls apart is on the definitions

I , for one, consider point shooting to be along the lines of the speed-rock (shooting from retention position) kind of thing

To those that would say I am wrong, misguided, uninformed, etc....I would say....that one of us sure is!

IMHO stopping with the pistol just out of actual sight alignment (yes, even 8" out) is not really "point shooting"...but then again...I feel that my shooting is threat focused even when my pistols sights are aligned

I can line myself up and close my eyes and sink a 3 point shot...almost every time....just by feel/muscle memory.....but I am not going to run out and give basketball clinics touting my breakthrough 3pointshooting method.

(I am no more or less basket focused just because my eyes are closed)

To borrow a phrase from an earlier post

"People who have been there/done that will tell you - in my experience"

To use your sights

 

[Az Qkr]

"Where we agree wholeheartedly is that pont shooting has been around for a long , long time...but everybody acts like they invented it this week!"

I'm not aware of any instructors who act like it was invented "this week", in fact just the opposite. Could you provide us with some of these "everybody"'s names? I think you should be able to give us even two out of "everybody" to start with.

"I , for one, consider point shooting to be along the lines of the speed-rock (shooting from retention position) kind of thing"

Your "consideration" would be wrong by EVERY recorded definition for the last 50+ years, including what Matt teaches. Apparently you don't have a clue about the FAS system he works with. More uninformed opinions sir?

"I can line myself up and close my eyes and sink a 3 point shot...almost every time....just by feel/muscle memory."

Can you do it with the hoop moving? While you're moving? While both you and the hoop are moving dynamically? If not, why would anyone go to your clinic, nothing special there, all you are doing is making free throws otherwise?

Probably a poor analogy here to what is being discussed, but then not surprising based on an obvious lack of real knowledge, understanding or experience.

"To those that would say I am wrong, misguided, uninformed, etc....I would say....that one of us sure is!"

Indeed sir, indeed.

""People who have been there/done that will tell you - in my experience"

To use your sights"

Would these same people go by the name of Fairbairn, Sykes, Applegate, Jordan, Bryce and others?

I think they certainly qualify as "been there/done that", don't you?

Robin Brown

 

[pickpocket]

I agree lasers have their place, but they are limited in scope to certain circumstances. Nothing owns the night but night vision. My m14 with anpvs4 really owns the night

Was never really impressed with the 4's though. However, NV monacles with an IR filter for your laser - or just an IR laser ....those rock! Not something that most of us have, unfortunately (for me).

Nothing that we have as civilians really owns the night. If you've never witnessed the complete unfairness of thermal imaging then you're missing out

EDIT:

Ronny:
As I understand it, tracer rounds "point both ways" in combat. How is it any different with a laser device? The laser would illuminate both the target and the point of origin.

1. You don't keep the freaking thing on all the time
2. If the BG is good enough to reflex shoot you in the nano-second that you should be showing your laser, then you weren't going to come out on top of that situation anyways

Ronny:
In an absolute darkness environment where neither you or your enemy can see each other, wouldn't the BG be able to see the laser being emitted from the device on your gun?

If there's not enough ambient light for positive ID, then why would you have your laser sight on? Additionally, if you're using a taclight, then the BG seeing your laser is a moot point.

 

[Az Qkr]

"Was never really impressed with the 4's though"

I've taken pics of people with it on a camera at 50 yds that the judge could ID as being that person in court. It works just fine for me on the 14 or with the camera attached.

Yes, there are much better gens now of course. The 4 is bulky, but it does own the night. Being a passive system, under the conditions I would use it, I would find anyone real quick using thermal or IR in my AO.

Robin Brown

 

[leadbutt]

Tut,tut, tut,,

Brownie, you know you'll never convince all the people


And what's this jab at us point shooters,,, slower my foot

Dave James

 

[pickpocket]

Az Qkr:
I've taken pics of people with it on a camera at 50 yds that the judge could ID as being that person in court. It works just fine for me on the 14 or with the camera attached.

ok, so you've got solid PID at approx 50 meters using a mounted anpvs 4. You apparently have one of the better maintained ANPVS 4's...lol. As it is, I wasn't commenting on the image quality....it's quite useful for S&R.

Off subject: On an M14 that doesn't provide me with a huge tactical advantage...if I've got a long-range rifle engaging at 50 meters then I have bigger problems.

On subject: At that range you're better off using a set of 7B's and the IR laser. It's accurate and exponentially quicker. Not saying it's not a useful tool...I just don't think it 'owns'

 

[Az Qkr]

pickpocket,

Of course it is maintained and recharged regularly as needed.

I only mentioned the 50 meters for the camera. I would be good to go on the rifle well past 200. The rifle probably wouldn't be out unless I had to hunt or hunker for some reason anyway.

Stay sharp

Robin

 

[matthew temkin]

Obwain...
The fact that I am no longer on your ignore list is progress enough.
Maybe we can share some range time soon and see where we stand.
In fact, I may be doing a class in Fort Collins, Colorado this March.
You may be surprised that we are doing 80% the same thing, but using different terms.
PS...I must assume that one of your friends trained with me in the past.
May I ask where and when?

 

[Skyguy]

I carry a tritium front sight on my g17, no tritium rear sight.
It is very easy to know where the end of the barrel is by seeing the front sight glow and using QK out to distances past 30 feet at dusk.

I did the same thing for years, so I definitely know it can work. Cutting edge at the time.

But once I used the lasergrips in low light/no light, I was sold. The laser can be put right on the target without ever using the tritium sight or the barrel. Reasonably, out to 150 feet or so.
You can keep your total attention and focus on the target and the red dot. It's not necessary to even look at the gun.
It is an absolutely amazing piece of technology.

I now use the combination of lasergrips for dusk to dawn, indoors and cloudy days.....and a fiber optic front sight for very bright daylight.

It works for me. Best setup I've ever had.

 

[riverkeeper]

I wanted to practice some QK and CT yesterday but like the Greeks said, 'To make the gods laugh just tell them your plans.'

Skyguy--
learned some things in your posts and on the sites you listed so that I'm also looking for a local range where the laser instructions tape is either available to view or for sale.

Virtually all of my concealed carry is in poor to fair light conditions and I've never shot in those conditions (except during & nearby but not directly in the VN war) - that will soon change.

I've mentioned my initial disappointment with CT to the extent I did a thread here in November about alternatives for dark conditions - pretty much settled on a XS Express Sight prior to this thread and my very limited QK experience. The front sight on my J frame is almost invisible in low light.

Thanks to an extraordinarily crappy opthamologist I have unusual vision issues so CT and QK are not an 'either-or' situation.... most probably a 'both' situation. I am looking forward to trying both.

I started this thread and expected mostly divergent, strong and opinionated and hopefully useful responses from P&S and sight shooters. While spirited, it was larger and mostly better than that.

 

[Skyguy]

Virtually all of my concealed carry is in poor to fair light conditions.
I have unusual vision issues so CT and QK are not an 'either-or' situation.... most probably a 'both' situation. I am looking forward to trying both.

I believe a "both situation" is the answer.

On a personal note, I use both lasergrips and point shooting. With both systems you've got all your bases covered especially in stressed out, low light/no light situations.

Target/vision issues are ended with the laser. Old eyes work again.

I fully support QK/point shooting. At eyeball range that's how we'll all shoot, so learning and practicing and ingraining the technique is a no-brainer.

But I've also learned the terrific advantages of having a laser equipped pistol. I can visually scan an area, totally focus on the target/threat, never look at my weapon, shoot from ridiculous positions....and hit wherever the red dot is.

My reasoning tells me to take every advantage available in a shootout....and the laser is a definite advantage.

 

[Az Qkr]

Good to see you here Dave.

Hope you had a great holiday season and are well.

Did someone say slower?

Heading to Arlington Natl Cemetery for a service tomorrow for one of my good friends in SF who we lost in the box on the 30th. One of our finest.

Keep the faith.

Brownie

 

[leadbutt]

Sorry to hear Brownie,, raise one for me

R.I.P.

 

[Skyguy]

Lasergrips give you an immediate and decisive advantage nothing else can equal. They provide superior weapons capabilities for self-defense, law enforcement and military applications.
Here's how:

Immediate Targeting:

Once properly sighted in, the laser dot marks exactly where the bullet will strike, regardless of how the gun is being held. It's just that simple. No other sighting device offers this capability.
Raise the gun, grip it like you normally would to shoot, and a pressure-sensitive switch activates the laser. Now you're ready to squeeze off a round, right on target, every time.

Low-Light Situations:

It's a fact that over 80% of incidents involving guns occur at night. Burglars, robberies, and assaults are much more likely to happen after dark, and that's exactly when Lasergrips really command an advantage.
Using Lasergrips, low light accuracy and speed increase more than with any other sighting tool, including night sights and even tactical lights.

Movement:

It's also a fact that in most life-threatening incidents, a person trying to hurt you isn't going to be standing still. And neither will you. Firing a handgun at a moving target, or while moving yourself, is extremely difficult. In competitions, and real-life situations, Lasergrips make shooting while moving faster and more accurate for even the best shooters.

Compensating For "Fight Or Flight" Response

Our natural response in a life-threatening situation is to flee, or stand our ground and fight. If we're forced to fight, our bodies respond automatically by pumping adrenaline for energy and narrowing our field of vision to focus the specific threat.
Fine muscle control needed to align the sights of a handgun becomes extremely difficult, if not impossible. Lasergrips compensate for this by enabling you to stay focused on the threat and accurately aim the gun without having to rely on fine motor skills.

Armed Encounters:

Nobody wants to use a weapon against another. But should a dangerous situation call for protecting yourself or your family, Lasergrips provide an immediate and decisive advantage. Thousands of law enforcement and military officers around the world have proven that Lasergrips can dramatically improve the outcome of an armed conflict.

Deterrent:

The threat of being shot is a strong deterrent. Nothing projects this threat as effectively as the bright red dot of a laser beam. Police and military users consistently report that Lasergrips de-escalate hostile situations by dramatically illustrating the consequences of continued hostile actions. Law-abiding citizens can have this same advantage, and can stop a threat without ever firing their gun.

Accountability:

In today's lawsuit-frenzied society, anyone deciding to point and fire a gun at another person, whether a law enforcement officer or citizen, must consider the consequences beyond the incident itself. Was it justified? Did the shooter take every precaution to ensure the safety of others? Lasergrips can help make good decisions because there is no ambiguity about where the gun is pointed and what will happen if it is fired.

Handgun Training:

Lasergrips are the best tool ever developed for learning or teaching handgun basics such as trigger control and sight picture. The laser vividly shows exactly where the gun is aiming at all times. Slight deviations from smooth trigger pulls and improper alignment of traditional sights, are very easy to see and correct.

Recreational Shooting:

Lasergrips are a great accessory for the recreational shooter. After all, the fun of shooting is hitting the target, right? Whether your range is indoors, or a safe outdoor location, Lasergrips will positively help you hit the target more frequently and consistently.

Handgun Hunting:

Hunters everywhere are discovering the thrill of handgun hunting. The same immediate targeting capability Lasergrips offer every shooter is perfect for close-quarters contact with a wild hog, boar or bear, especially during low-light morning and evening time. Our HogHunter™ models are designed for large-caliber handguns popular among hunters.

--Crimson Trace

 

[Harley Quinn]

Kind of funny really

Both the tech and the sight are good for you.

I was one of the first if not the first to get my service revolver set up with a 'night sight', this was back in the early 70's. It was great for night shooting.

I worked mostly night shifts and really liked the idea had my model 15-3 worked on by a guy who was doing it and I really liked it. Boy you can't believe the controversy I was in with guy's who said I have been doing it for 11 years and blah blah blah you don't need it. Wrong.

Both are good the tech and the sight, back then it was just on the gun only the shooter could see it front and rear glowed, one white the other red.

With the new tech it is even better, pretty pricy but if I was carring and was active LEO. I would definitly have one of these laser dudes on my shooter you could count on it.

I have a friend who just recently had one put on his shooter (he is active LEO), we will be going to the range soon and I will shoot his and see how it is (Glock 22).

Take it easy, it is just a matter of life and death (yours) no biggie . I believe it is a real step in the right direction for accuracy for the guy who does not and will not train. So he will shoot better. That's good..

HQ

 

[JN01]

I have been experimenting with point shooting techniques for a little while now. The method descibed in the Applegate/Janich book "Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back" seems to work the best for me. They actually describe it as an unsighted aiming method.

It makes sense to me that under a life and death situation, I may likely focus on the threat rather than the gun sights, therefore, a "sightless" technique should be an important one.

It also seems reasonable that a laser sight, could at times, also be usefull in high stress situations. It would be another option, like the sights.

As I have no experience with laser sights, I am not trying to be critical, but I am curious about one aspect of using them.

My question is, if when the SHTF you are unable to focus on your sights, does the same hold true for a little red dot? When you and/or the target are moving, is it even harder to find this bouncing dot?

 

[Harley Quinn]

Yes, I would think so.

That is the reason for the dissagreement. When it hits the fan you go to the instinct and survival mode and if you have not been trained and trained well
you are in the deep end.

But the lighted sights were great and so is the laser, but you still need to be able to shoot and response is the thing, the timing, the action the reaction.

All of it comes into play and then just as you are squeezin that trigger you realize it is not the bad guy and you need to be able to react to that as well.
Training is the key, everyone likes to talk about it but there are very few departments out there that have the kind of training LAPD has.

They come from all over the world to be trained at the facilities.

Harley

 

[matthew temkin]

JNO1..yes.
I was a personal friend/student of Col. Applegate and he felt that a laser was just something else to look for and slow you down.
Keep practicing the point shooting and it will serve you well.

 

[pickpocket]

The laser is better in low-light than in bright (or direct) light...easier to find the dot. But, as will all things, you should train extensively with your laser just as you train yourself to reflex shoot.
If you know what you're looking for, the dot is relatively easy to find. If you can't find it easily, then don't waste time looking for it, just revert to the front sight.
When you need it, the laser should just be an extension of your weapon...second nature...just like what the rest of your skills should be.

Saying that the laser is useless is something like saying NVG's or thermal imaging are useless. They're all tools, and to use a tool effectively you need to have solid fundamental skills and solid training in how to employ your tool.

 

[Skyguy]

My question is, if when the SHTF you are unable to focus on your sights, does the same hold true for a little red dot?

No! You will focus on the threat and with minimal training you should easily see and place the dot on the target.

When you and/or the target are moving, is it even harder to find this bouncing dot?

Yes, but still easier than sights.

FYI: How far is the laser visible?
Crimson Trace has the most powerful beam allowed by law, a Class IIIa visible light diode. At night, in reduced light and indoors the laser is highly visible up to several hundred yards. Under bright sunlight, the dot can be seen up to 15 yards away. --Crimson Trace

also.....pickpocket nailed it. Do a re-read of his post.

.