Front Sight Press AND Quick Kill??

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You know guys, truth be told they're all just tools for each individual's old bag of tricks. People who have been there/done that will tell you - in my experience - that you can learn a little something applicable from everything, and you'll end up using all of it, in one form or another, at some point.
There is no good, better, best -- except in theory and conversation. There is only accurate and inaccurate, hit and miss; it's all about training, experience, and application. What works for one may not always work for another, and those people who won't admit any other theory's validity are going to wish you had more tools in the bag if you ever find yourself in a nasty situation.

For those of you who discount laser-sights and other technology, remember that technology is a good thing, especially if it enhances a shooter's skill. But a shooter should never forsake training and fundamentals for technology..a mistake of novice shooters.

The book is a great place to start, but it can never tell you what's best all the time in every situation.

Just my two cents.

(sorry for the mulitple posts...my broswer freaked out)
 
"For those of you who discount laser-sights and other technology, remember that technology is a good thing, especially if it enhances a shooter's skill."

Thats exactly what I was saying here:

"IMO, lasers are useful training aid in the development of ones handhold, trigger control and eye/hand coordination. Useful perhaps in low light,":D

"But a shooter should never forsake training and fundamentals for technology..a mistake of novice shooters."

"Thats exactly what I was saying here:

"Lasers can fail, they are mechanical devices. One can become dependant on them to the detriment of actual skills building in some areas.":D

Robin Brown
 
Robin,

Nothing personal...and no offense meant, but your post seems to be a crock of marketing in the pursuit of 'students'.

In my post I clearly said...it's important that you be proficient in the basic fundamentals of shooting, but the Lasergrips save a lot of time/money spent on redundant training that differs in name only.

So, let me put it this way: once a shooter becomes proficient in the basic fundamentals of shooting....the laser shows exactly where the bullet will hit when fired from any angle or position. Period.

No sight, method, stance or voodoo is needed. Just put the dot on the target and that's where the bullet goes.

Bottom line for me is that I'll stick to my method of combined point shooting, laser sights and sights.....because it works.
 
Skyguy:

Nothing personal taken.

I don't need to market myself, read the threads from SNB and Steve, students who now have the knowledge of what it is I can do to bring anyone [ not just students ] to a level of skills without using anything but their natural ability.

"So, let me put it this way: once a shooter becomes proficient in the basic fundamentals of shooting....the laser shows exactly where the bullet will hit when fired from any angle or position. Period."

And of course I said the same thing here:

""IMO, lasers are useful training aid in the development of ones handhold, trigger control and eye/hand coordination. Useful perhaps in low light"

I think we are on the same page here.:D

Bottom line for me is that I'll stick to my method of combined threat focused shooting and sights.....because it has worked for 25 years as well.

If I was marketing myself, I would have started the thread here, I'm only here at the behest of one of my students to answer questions the thread starter had as I AM the one who would be able to answer anything about QK.

Robin Brown
 
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It has become obvious that I misunderstood skyguys first post. The first paragraph really threw me off after he quoted me. It felt like a personal attack, but I guess I was wrong.

My apologies to all, especially skyguy, and capt charlie.
 
Lasergrips deliver instant and accurate target acquisition for all shooters and from awkward and compromised positions.

They are now widely accepted by the military and hundreds of advanced LE agencies as a very useful and effective tactical sighting system both indoors and out, dusk, day and night.

Lasergrips own the night.
They easily excell over iron and tritium sights and over sightless techniques in low light and no light situations. They function very well in daylight.

FYI.....This is a defense training/information video:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/ltdt.wmv

.
 
Skyguy:

We're all very happy that you like the CT lasers on your firearms and find value in their use.

"no light situations"? Nothing short of NV equipment works in those conditions. If you can't see in a no light scenario, you have no business shooting someone. It's called target identification/verification by most, and your laser will not identify or verify anything as a threat.

Nothing personal...and no offense meant, but your posts seem to be a crock of marketing in the pursuit of 'convincing people they need lasers on their firearms':D

Robin Brown
 
I have a CT laser on my sig 226. The really only thing that i have found is that its a great intimidation tool. When a suspect sees that on his chest, they know where that bullet is going to hit. Most of the time they get thier hands in the air or fall face first.

I have found that target aquisition is a bit slower than conventional point shooting. I focused more on the laser than the target (threat). I actually shot a bit off when used on the range. Dont get me wrong bullet placement was perfect but i started to rush shots. I finally turned it off and thats how I shoot at the range- point fire and iron sight fire. I leave the laser off. I do keep it on for patrol.
 
Robin,

I wish you had gone ahead and informed yourself with the four informative links that were provided.
It never hurts to learn more about new tactics and technology.

Everything I posted is absolute truth...no rumors or disinformation.
I'll include the links again so that any others interested can verify my claims.

One other thing; I never said 'absolute total darkness'. Even night vision technology is a poor identifier
between the enemy or friendlies.
I said 'no light' situations....And as an expert, you very well know the difference.

Like others, I've learned that it's tough to convince old timers to accept or try new technology
and new methods, but like computers and the 'net, sooner or later, most everyone figures it out.

My best to you and your students.

This will help with understanding:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/5things.pdf

This holds a wealth of information:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/

This tells it like it is:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/mtsvid.wmv

This is a defense training/information video:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/ltdt.wmv
 
I finally turned it off and thats how I shoot at the range- point fire and iron sight fire. I leave the laser off.
I do keep it on for patrol.
Click to expand...

I can only read that as when your life is on the line and there's a good probability of low light scenarios...you opt for the laser sight.
Good thinking!
 
yes your right, I have used it when my life was on the line. Any tool that can help is a great advantage. What I am saying is that I dont rely on a battery powered sight. If my laser should quit working i want to know that I am profficient with my siron sights and will be able to stop any threat. I think everyone should have a set. There affordable and fun to shoot when plinking. I just don't want people to use them as a crutch, thinking that there laser is going to be dead on every time. its just like a scope if it gets bumped it will be off. Practice with the laser from time to time, but just make sure that your ability to use sights is dead on.

I am not knocking their accuracy either. I was able to shoot a small propane tank at 100 yards with my sig using my laser. There was really no point in that last statement just bragging, pretty proud of that shot.
 
"I have found that target aquisition is a bit slower than conventional point shooting."

Thats a fact sir. I hesitated to say as much in my last post for fear it would start others on a path to denial of such, which may not be in the best interest of the thread here. Possibly confusing some with less experience in threat focused shooting management.

One student at the "Sightless in Tucson" event this last Oct., an older gentlemen who has become a friend, had used a laser on his snub for some time and was enamored with it for getting good hits.

After the training, he found he was getting two solid hits before he could find the laser on the threat. He dumped the laser use unless in low light, it's not as fast in threat management for him any longer.

Skyguy: "I said 'no light' situations....And as an expert, you very well know the difference."

No light to me means no light, low light means the same, low light. In fact I've shot blacklight matches where you could not use anything but irons and no tritium/ns's were allowed.

The gun could not be seen in your hand at the shooting station but the targets at 50 feet were illiminated with blacklights which had their outlines painted with luminescent marker, dimly glowing under the blacklight.

If there had been no light no one could shoot at all, the gun and target would both be impossible to see. If you didn't mean absolutely no light by your no light statement, we have come to agreement again. :D

Thanks for the well wishes sir.

Robin Brown
 
I have a CT laser on my sig 226. The really only thing that i have found is that its a great intimidation tool. When a suspect sees that on his chest, they know where that bullet is going to hit. Most of the time they get thier hands in the air or fall face first.
Click to expand...

I agree with superman....it's a VERY effective intimidation tool...as effective as racking a round into the chamber of a shotgun.

Target acquisition is a bit slower if you don't practice lining up the laser with peripheral vision, else you tend to focus on the red dot to make sure it's center mass before focusing on the target itself. I have found that this is mostly a problem with people who keep the lasers active even when they are moving or scanning for a target (i.e. the red dot exists before the target does).

Of course, like always, everything is subject to how you practice.

As for how the military/LEO use laser sights...they don't keep them on for long periods of time. Most of the tactical lasers they use are turned on by an actuator on the grips so that they are active only when they're needed. It's just not too smart to keep the thing on all the time, especially if you're in a no-light/low-light situation.
Besides, as a civilian, if you're going to survive criminal or civil litigation you had better be using a tactical flashlight in no-light/low-light. The red dot won't 'identify' anything.
 
I admit, I'm not to big on hardware (gear) I'm a software (training) kind of guy. I only own guns and gear that fits a niche, in me and my wives self defense plan. That is a total of seven guns and the gear that supports those guns.

My software applies to each of these guns. I could pick each one up and effeciently use the training I have recieved without the expense of attaching a lazer device on each of my guns.

I paid a one time only, nominal fee to Robin Brown to learn Quick Kill. That fee covers the skills to pick up any of my guns and apply QK at logical distances, accurately, and effectively in all lighting conditions. The training covers my handguns, my shotguns, and my rifles. I will own QK for the rest of my life.

I will take the money I saved on needless hardware and put it towards more software and ammo for that training.

It is MHO that you should save your money...put it to use bettering yourself....do not become reliant on an unnecessary mechanical device that may not be there or may not work when you really need it. When it comes to saving my life or the lives of my loved ones, I'm going to invest and put trust in me, not some unnecessary mechanical device.

As always YMMV!:D
 
It is MHO that you should save your money...put it to use bettering yourself....do not become reliant on an unnecessary mechanical device that may not be there or may not work when you really need it.
Click to expand...

Just so you know; a firearm is 'also' a "mechanical device that may not be there or may not work when you really need it."
LOL

Anyway, your method is pointshooting....plain and simple. I'm very familiar with that technique. I still use that technique and it is no more than what I was taught years ago in my Army AB training.

Confidence and fidelity to a self defense/shooting method is important, but it would be a benefit to leave your mind open to the latest technologies and techniques.
The Army/military/spec ops use lasers, hundreds of LE agencies use lasers, afficionados use lasers and regular folks use lasers.
Technology is on the move. Stuck in the past is not cool.

If accuracy is important, it certainly helps to have a laser sight for shots out past 15-20 feet. It's real easy...put the dot on the target from any awkward or compromised position and that is exactly where the bullet goes.

If Murphy's law appears, revert to your fundamental training; sights.
With pointshooting, if you're out of belly gun range and you're in the dusk or dark you are screwed .

Lasers rule the night!
 
"With pointshooting, if you're out of belly gun range and you're in the dusk or dark you are screwed."

This assumption/statement is not entirely correct Skyguy.

I carry a tritium front sight on my g17, no tritium rear sight. It is very easy to know where the end of the barrel is by seeing the front sight glow and using QK out to distances past 30 feet at dusk.

In the dark [ not totally without some ambient light ], the tritium always lets me know where I am at and can easily be superimposed in the peripheral vision onto any threat as well. QK utilizes a reference point from the end of the barrel in relation to the threat, if you can see any threat [ even a shadowy figure ] and can see the end of the barrel, they are owned anytime you choose to do so, as long as you have ID'd the potential as something that needs shooting.

I agree lasers have their place, but they are limited in scope to certain circumstances. Nothing owns the night but night vision. My m14 with anpvs4 really owns the night.:D

To own the night, one needs to "see".

Relative your being familiar with pointshooting [ "that technique" ], I'm not sure what you actually mean by that. There are 3, perhaps four known effective pointshooting techniques which have their own unique methodologies. "that technique", doesn't tell me which methodology you are using when you do pointshoot.

Robin Brown
 
Lasers compromise concealment?

Question here not related to the flame war in this thread but:

In an absolute darkness environment where neither you or your enemy can see each other, wouldn't the BG be able to see the laser being emitted from the device on your gun? I understand that it's pressure activated, but if it's pitch black and I don't know the location of my enemy, my grip is going to be solid on my gun. In the event I trip over something, I don't want to drop my gun.

As I understand it, tracer rounds "point both ways" in combat. How is it any different with a laser device? The laser would illuminate both the target and the point of origin.

Yes, I know the laser doesn't look like a thin red line in mid-air.

I'm not arguing for or against the device, but I think that a compromised position is a big danger to be considered in this scenario and should be considered in all possible engagements.
 
Ronny:

No flame war I'm aware of:D

Just a discussion on the merits [ or demerits ] of various shooting methodologies and devices.;)

Differences of opinions will always be present if there are two people involved in a discusion of any kind. Those opinions can be based on ones knowledge, training and/or experiences or a lack thereof.

Robin Brown
 
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