Friend pulled gun on two guys.

GRD,

None of us were there, so this entire thread is conjecture.

The bottom line is that by waiting longer than he did is putting himself at their mercy. The don't call that the 'point of no return' for nothing.
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I never suggested that he should have waited longer, what I'm trying to say is he waited too long. Not to draw, but to start actively dealing with the developing situation.

Moving away from the aggressors and away from the phone upon initial confrontation would have helped determine if the thugs were after him or just protecting 'their' phone. I may have mis-stereotyped them as the type that would back off at that point. Maybe not.

A CCW is supposed to be purely defensive, and only in life-threatening situations at that. I'm not saying this story didn't lead to a life-threateing situation, I'm merely suggesting that situation may have been avoided through prior action.

As it is, no one was attacted, no woman was beaten, and no child was hurt. While we know that a gun was brandished to protect the victims life, others may perceive that a gun was brandished because the victim wanted to use the phone.
 
"When he gets to the phone two guys larger than himself start to walk toward him, and say that he would have to give them $10 to use that pay phone. He laughs and says yeah right. The guys tell him it's $10 or he wont be using that phone. He tells them to stop and not come any closer. They taunt and continue to get closer. when one starts to walk to his other side he pulls the gun. Both guys freak and throw up hands. He tells them to get lost, and they run."


Hmmm - Ok - so maybe replace "yeah right" with "no thank you sirs - I do not want to pay you $10". They insist & move closer, he says stop, they taunt and keep moving closer and split. He draws weapon...

Damn, what the hell do you "retreat without drawing" guys want him to do different? Seems the ONLY other thing he could have done would have been to see the 2 guys in proximity to the only phone around ahead of time and not even try to use it. (& then what?)
 
Exactly. I don't know how much finer this hair could be split...

What exactly should he have done differently. Lets have some kind of actual concrete detailing of how he could have handled this better.
 
Dr. Gary Kleck, whom I have met and spoken with, has done a study on the defensive uses of firearms, particularly handguns. I believe he is or was with Florida State but I can't remember. Anyway this study was done to illustrate said defensive uses and debunk anti-gun myths that handguns are useless for self defense. His study demonstrates that there are roughly 2,000,000 such usages annually by private law abiding citizens and excluding police confrontations.

He would state that this is a situation by which the presence of a handgun and the potential victim's willingness to present it prevented a crime from occurring. In fact Dr. Kleck would say that this is how the vast majority of those two million defensive usages occur. Most end this way without being reported to the police. The potential victim is left intact physically and financially and our criminal leaves still alive and moving up half a notch on the criminal Darwinian Scale. The latter criminal(s) isn't likely to contact local law enforcement regarding this incident because they probably have a pre-existing relationship with said organization and know that the latter may not believe their version of the story. Only in a small percentage of these encounters is the gun ever discharged and the number injured or killed is a smaller percentage than that.

After reading through these threads I find something that I believe is more disturbing and also a wake up call to us concealed handgun licensees.

Be advised that if you use your handgun lawfully there is still a great likelihood of a grand jury hearing followed by a jury trial if you don't get "no billed" by the grand jury. Okay the thought that scares me of that process is that both the grand jury and the trial jury will be peppered liberally with persons such as Beretta Cougar and eeyore, having entirely unrealistic expectations of a victims "obligations" and a criminals culpability in a possible lethal force encounter. No offense to either of you. I assume you're gun owners and possibly carry concealed lawfully in your respective states. I wouldn't consider either of you as being part of a jury of my peers.

Best,
Dave
 
What exactly should he have done differently. Lets have some kind of actual concrete detailing of how he could have handled this better.
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The only detail is that I (would like to think I) would be moving away from the confrontation and phone before they got close or started a flanking maneuver, and therefore before I drew.

I will admit that may not be the best solution, just different. Maybe I am too worried about legal ramifications, but if I can stay untouched and avoid having to draw, that's the path I'll try to take.
 
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Where are you going to go?

To those that suggest some kind of retreat, where are you going to go? Back to the car that doesn't run (250 yards away)? To the deserted mall? Do you just want to see if the BGs are going to chase you and thus be justified in shooting them? If they don't know you're armed, why wouldn't they chase you? Sounds like a good plan to get a couple BGs killed, whereas how it actually ended up, no body got hurt.
 
Maybe I am too worried about legal ramifications, but if I can stay untouched and avoid having to draw, that's the path I'll try to take.
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Of course. And we should all be worried about legal ramifications, and I don't think anyone wants to shoot somebody no matter how evil they are. Life typically changes after that.

But it's important to recognize when you are and are not in serious danger. As was mentioned earlier a typical man standing still has the ability to cut you when inside of 20 feet or so in a couple of seconds, less time than 99% of CCW'ers can make a concealment draw on the range on a Sunday afternoon with your buds, let alone while backpedaling to avoid a rushing neanderthal or two in the dark.

It's also important to realize just how dangerous turning your back to an adversary like this is and factor that into your decision making. This is, IMO, one of the two great benefits of the new FL anti-run-away statute. Making a retreat because of legal pressure to do so can put you in more danger than standing your ground with a weapon. The decision to retreat should be based on the situation and what it requires, not fear of being sued or jailed when fighting for your life - and the minute those two slimes laid eyes on our hero here, he was fighting for his life from that point forward.

The other great benefit to the statute is that it tips the scales to the good guys in an official way. It's a huge societal middle finger to the criminal element. FIGHT CRIME, SHOOT BACK is just a bumper sticker, but that law is for real. It embodies the spirit that the community has had enough and it's time for the animals to start being fearful.
 
GRD

All valid points.

I guess I am picturing a situation where there was initially enough space (a couple rows of parking lot) between the hero and the assailants that some movement on his behalf could be accomplished without turning his back on them or giving up the only cover available. Rather than run I probably should have said cautiously make distance.

The story reads like the thugs continued walking towards the teller during the initial 'offer' and subsequent taunts, which to me suggests the conversation started at some distance.

But it's important to recognize when you are and are not in serious danger.
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Again, my position is the victim probably didn't realize soon enough he was in serious danger. If I was in his shoes, I would have been moving away in order to give the bullies another opportunity to break off and to keep as much distance as possible between them and me, which also reduces the chances of me being flanked. I have no problem with someone holding their ground, but had things gone badly (which wasn't the case here) I think they would have more difficulty staying out of jail and/or bankruptcy.

But I don't live in Florida.
 
I would have been moving away in order to give the bullies another opportunity to break off and to keep as much distance as possible between them and me, which also reduces the chances of me being flanked. I have no problem with someone holding their ground, but had things gone badly
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One thing that you are forgetting.
His car was a out of commission, he needed access to that phone for his safety and well being.
His only other option was to assume the prey position and slink away to the safety of his car to wait for help to happen upon him.

These guys were predators sizing up their prey plain and simple.
At that point his only option was to assume an aggressive posture to let them know that he was prepared to meet the threat.
Anything less would have shown the weakness that predators look for. Sometimes standing your ground and even pushing back is the best way to deescalate.
 
IMHO, he should have shot the b:)st:)rds.
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If the anti's were a fire, this comment would be gas...just being dumped onto the fire.

He displayed his weapon to gain the upper hand, which in my opinion was a draw too soon, but he felt his life was at risk.. but shooting them would not have been just at all, man slaughter if you ask me.
 


Cougar, I don't think you are going to passify most of us here into thinking we shouldn't stand our ground. I must assume that you benefit from this.

Are you a thug too?



-tINY

 
Thug? far from it!

Passify members into not standing their grounds? when did I do that? or try?

Benefit from what??? I dont get your post, please explain it if you can/may?
 
Cougar,

May I ask why you are so concerned about what the anti's might think of our opinions?

Personally I really dont give a crap what the anti's think. Those of us who live in America have the right to free speech. And if we think that the person was in the right to draw, then so be it.

Let us not forget - we owe our freedom to the patriots who fought the oppressors at that time - the british. Outgunned, outnumbered, they fought with nothing more than guts and will.

What would our forefathers think of us now, blessed with the freedom to defend ourselves, giving in to the BG's because we are afraid of lawsuits or are too afraid to assert our moral imperative.

Certainly prudence should be excercised - not every situation calls for drawing our weapons or putting holes in BGs.

But when we are threatened, put in deliberate danger, hesitation is the worst enemy. Train, prepare, and so when the time comes, your muscle memory, instinct, and good judgement all combine to save your life.

Here's to hoping I never have to make this choice, as I hope none of you are subjected to it as well.
 
I worry about what the anti's think, I do.. California/NYC/NJ/DC and every other anti state happened because the people of those states didnt care what the anti's thought.

I guess I was brought up and taught differently than most posters in this thread.. I will only draw if i absolutely think I will die or be badly injured if i dont.

My brother had to draw once, even my mother had to draw once, and in both cases they exhuasted all other options presented to them. both are happy with what they did, none have guilt on their minds, I never had to draw on someone, and i hope i never will have to, but if I ever have to draw on someone I would want to be able to look back and say to myself I did all I could but this person was set on taking my life.. but that doesnt seem like the mindset of the "I would of shot them" posters, to me it seems like their itching to shoot someone, just waiting for someone to give them justification.

I have so much to type but I am not great when it comes to wording things. so I will let some of you respond.
 
I understand what Cougar is saying, but in this situation I doubt waiting longer or even trying to retreat would have changed the outcome, and it very well might have been worse for the victim as others have already concluded. The fact that it was an empty parking lot except for the three of them means there isn't really a place to retreat to once they have engaged. The friend could have tried to slowly walk backwards I guess, but the guys were walking toward him and would have simply followed. It doesn't seem likely that they would give up chase simply because the friend made it known that he wanted out of the situation. Anyone who's been mugged by two or more guys before understands this. Even if you haven't, it's not hard to picture. Cougars brother and mother apparently used up all their options before drawing, but I would say that there was only one other option the friend did not use up prior to drawing, and that was to simply turn and run away hoping that he was faster and had better endurance than his assailants. Though, where would you run to in an empty parking lot? Not the safty of the broken down car.
 
Once again let's throw the responsibility of this situation where it belongs, square in the laps of the two dirtbags that threatened and intimidated this man to the point where he had to draw a weapon to defend himself.

LET ME BE CLEAR! IF THEY HAD SIMPLY MINDED THEIR OWN BUSINESS AND LET THE PERSON IN QUESTION MAKE HIS PHONE CALL UNTHREATENED AND UNMOLESTED THIS DISCUSSION WOULD HAVE BEEN MOOT!

Our man did everything right! I am tired of the lack of accountability for the scum who initiated this encounter. Why aren't they being held to the same standards. Shouldn't they have known that the pursuit of this criminal endeavour might have some unintended consequences i.e. the victim might be armed and thus not quite so compliant, that maybe they might have ended up tagged on the toe dead. I'll say this much they did execute their duty to retreat prudently when they found themselves at a gun fight without a gun(s).

Dave
 
Let me help ya'll out with a few more details. This man was my sunday school teacher from a few years ago when I was in high school. He's middle aged and kindly round. Bad knees too. These thugs were bout my age, early twenties he said. He was at the pay phone and didn't see them till he was already at the phone. Said, "yeah right" cause he thought they were kidding. Situation happened in Memphis, TN on his way home to Alabama. He does have family; a wife and a son a year older than me.

Couger, I understand what you are saying. But, retreat for this man wouldn't be outrunning these guys. they would easily catch and beat the ever loving crap outta him. I figure that's what they probably woulda done.

My friend is a nice guy and would be hard pressed to pull the trigger, but Im sure he woulda if he had to.
 
I hate the ANTI-Gun crowd, most of them live in nice safe (not to mention VERY expensive parts of town, gated communities, with own private security), so its no wonder they dont feel the need to carry a firearm. but for most, "real", americans who have to go out into the real world, where we might meet real P.O.S. people that would love to do us harm, we carry a firearm. your friend, thank God he is safe and wasnt harmed, or even killed, did the right thing. i was watching a show on t.v. about police training drills, where they said 19 steps was the magic number you need to keep between you and a threat. at that distance a badguy with a knife can rush you, and stab you before you can grab your gun, draw your firearm, and aim your weapon. they showed how with new recuits how a guy just standing there acting calm and peaceful one second, can run at the officer and stab him mulitiple times before the officer can pull his gun, and point it on the, once calm and peaceful badguy. if you dont believe it, try it with your friend, get a dummy gun, and a rubber knife, and have your friend stand 19 steps away, and run at you, without you knowing, and see if you can draw and get a shot off in time.

its too bad we live in a country, were the Bad guys, can use the court system to, for a second time in some cases, destroy the lives of good, and honest americans. you can thank the Anti-gun people for that.
 
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