Friend pulled gun on two guys.

Of course he was justified. What is he gonna do?? Tell the bad guys ..."it's ok to mug me, just don't kill me or I'll have to pull my gun." It sounds like some people have no street experience other than what they see every night on COPS. But when they ran off, the first thing he should do is use that pay phone to call your local LEO and make a detailed report of what happened, then get outta there, maybe even vice versa.
 
Regardless of what the law says, IMO you would have to be insane to keep your gun hidden in a situation like that.

Two larger men, already threatening you start to manuver into position for attack? What should you do? Turn and run, only to be tapped on the shoulder and, what, spoken harshly to?

Maybe if he'd had his 'pocket law' book on him and a cell phone he could have asked them to hold on a minute while he called his lawyer to figure out if their actions met the standard for displaying his firearm in this locale.

I know! maybe they were going to start a debate on their proposition that he give them $10 and he could have just won the argument and gotten away. Maybe it was just a big game! "Give us the $10 and we'll let you go....no really." Wow, that sounds like a great deal! I mean, my life is worth more than $10, what a bargain. OK, Mr. Hulking Criminal and his Wingman Buddy, here's my 10-spot. Do I get to make my call now? Pretty please? Why did you grab my arm? Hey, where's your friend? :eek:

Check the implied contract on this one, jack: give it up or else - - you get to spin the real Wheel of Fortune to figure out what the 'else' is...hope it comes up roses!

Should he have just stood there like a deer in the headlights and waited for his fate to arrive? One place you don't want to find yourself is being loaded into the ambulance in a cervical collar with IV's sticking out of your arms, squinting out through your one good remaining eye, and have the EMT's and cops find your gun still in its holster. Talk about embarassing... But hey, I'm sure your wife and kids will take solace in the knowledge that you didn't break the law while they sell the house to pay the physical therapy bills and look for new jobs during your recovery and subsequent bankruptcy!

All this like the demand for money is some kind of contractual venture you're entering into with these upstanding urban businessmen - you hold up your end and they'll hold up theirs. What if they only wanted to "inflict some pain"? Maybe that wouldn't be worth the full $10...I mean if it was like a bad bruise or something I might only pay $5 to avoid that. Do they have a menu I can look at? I'll take the ruptured spleen and crushed ribs for $50, garcon. (psst...you know, the hardest part, for me anyway, about a situation like this is trying to figure out how much to tip these people...I should really get one of those 'mugger tip cards' you can keep in your wallet...)

We're not even talking about shooting these entrepreneurs (which, without a weapon in sight or some, what do cops call it? 'furtive movement'? I'd think is a real judgement call - however in my book I'd call that move morally defensible, maybe even the prudent thing to do, but likely illegal), we're not even talking about pointing the gun at them, just displaying it! How this is even up for discussion is a major head scratcher.

Frankly, as soon as they started moving in his direction and made it clear they were there to rob him, it should have been the steady rearward-ho shuffle, barking commands with the gun out in the finger-off-the-trigger low ready faster than you can say "Tueller". If they didn't stop like cartoon characters in concrete you move to step two: SCREAM the commands and put together a finger-off-the-trigger sight picture on the big one.

Everyone knows where it goes from there. The one place it doesn't go is with a dead good guy, and a good guy walking away unharmed is a result that keeps balance in the universe. A good guy walking away from a dead bad guy (or a couple of them) is like a major win for said universe.
 
Sorry, Beretta Cougar, . . . you are way off base. The guy did it right, . . . the fact that he wasn't mugged or killed proved it.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
Bcougar you living in Florida should be aware of the new laws we have and the luxury of not retreating...

and as someone metioned the tueller drill....an asaliant armed with a knife or club can cover 21 feet in a little over a second...this is an average indivual if i remeber correctly...can you draw, aim and fire in a little over a second? espically on TWO targets?

he shouldn't have to retreat. im sorry but i disagree that your gun is your "last ditch" effort...is he suppose to wait for the badies to attack and THEN do something and risk getting his weapon taken and used against him?

what he did is perfectly legal in the state of Florida. from the cops i associate with would not of had a problem with the man's behavior.

just my .2 i would have drawn given the situation as i am seeing it...and i probably would have drawn as soon as i saw BG #2 try to flank me...obviously i wouldnt have shot them...unless they still came at me.

got to love Florida's gun laws...one state has it right ;)

Chad
 
I've done the Tueller drill and seen it.

One opponant:
10 yards and you have a chance.
7 yards and you'll get hammered, even if you manage to draw.
5 yards and your teeth are saying hello to mother Earth.

I know people who will gladly demonstrate the Tueller drill for you and will put up $1000 to match yours. You think you are so good that you can nail TWO men and one has you flanked?!

Oh this would be fun. I'll kick in $500. Just let me set up a video and make some popcorn, none for you, you'll be eating the airsoft gun.

"Just walk away".....
Those punks were not in the business of charging a fee for a phone, they were in the business of victimization. They don't just let customers "walk away" because they aren't in the mood to be mugged.

Stop talking silly.

EC
 
One opponant:
10 yards and you have a chance.
7 yards and you'll get hammered, even if you manage to draw.
5 yards and your teeth are saying hello to mother Earth.
Click to expand...

More support for Xavier's theory on the shrouded J-frame
 
Oh, one other thing, there are 10 events (in AZ, again) under which a victim / witness may employ deadly force w/o any warning whatsoever for the purposes of preventing the following crimes (thank God I live in AZ):

1. Arson of an Occupied Structure. - Sec 13-1704
2. First or Second Degree Burglary. - Sec 13-1507
3. Kidnapping. - Sec 13-1304
4. Manslaughter. - Sec 13-1103
5. First or Second Degree Murder. - Sec 13-1104
6. Sexual Conduct w/ a Minor. - Sec 13-1405
7. Sexual Assault. - Sec 13-1406
8. Child Molestation. - Sec 13-1410
9. Armed Robbery. - Sec 13-1904
10. Aggravated Assault. - Sec 13-1204

References:

Title 13, Arizona Revised Statutes.
Arizona Gunowners Guide, Alan Korwin, Bloomfield Press, C-1994 (time to get latst revision and study changes, if any), page 76.
 
Im not going to wait untill the badguys are within arms reach of me. Then it would be too late esp since its two guys.
 
I know the new laws of Florida, but I will not abuse them, I wont retreat if i can't, I will retreat if i can, will never retreat in my home/boat/car, human life is worth more to me I guess, even the life of my enemy..

I'm happy that the friend made it home safe... -1 for the bad guys.

I personally would of waited for the next move, hopefully that works for me when the time comes, (hopefully it doesnt).
 
I spent 33 years in the military. I have seen the evil that men do...your friend did the right thing, regardless of what all the nay sayers think. I have carried a CW for more than 30 years. No one knew I ever had it. Hammerless 38 in right front pocket. Backup 22 D-100 High Standard in ankle rig. Your friend showed much more restaint than I would have. The first time I heard "it will cost you $10 dollars to use the phone, the situation has already reached 90% of a lethal encounter. The other 10% is what the perps decide. If they tried to flank me, the encounter has reached the critical stage.....No self respecting honest citizen is going to tell you that it will cost you to use the phone.....Have you ever seen anyone who was mugged and then stomped into the ground ?? Not a pretty sight. Dark, dead end street ?? No one around ?? Me or them?? Guess who is not going to eat breakfast....
 
K_Dawg-

YOU sign the wavier too, Ok? And if I slap you before you draw & fire, then I get to use your gun on you, ok?
(sheesh - I hope I haven't gotten much slower the last few years since we did this drill at the PD! :) PLUS you've got REAL real-world experience - hmmm..let me think about this some more! :p)

In general...
Seriously - this story is a good example of the type of split-second decisions we who carry may all be confronted with at any time. We used to cover similiar scenarios in fire-arm training sessions - how fast any situation can turn deadly (and from what distances). Carrying concealed usually puts us behind the eightball as it is, because we have to REact. How long is too long to do SOMETHING proactive? As someone mentioned above - at what point did showing 2 BGs who ARE threatening you that you are armed become illegal? And at what point in YOUR training did you get confident enough to think you can out-draw...from a weapon-CONCEALED position...and fire accurate enough to take out 2 already-charging bad guys, coming in different directions from as close as 20 FEET?

Ayoob pointed out in The Gravest Extreme about keeping $5 folded up in a matchbook (as a civilian) to toss to BGs in a situation just like this - as $5 (or $10 - with inflation?) is ALOT cheaper then the aftermaths of even a good shoot. Possible to be so prepared and see if the sharks take the free meal and leave then the area - but in THIS situation? It was diffused perfectly (where WAS the good guy going to retreat to?) esp. if he reported it afterwards.

side-note: anyone see Collateral with Tom Cruise? The scene when he takes on the 2 armed BGs in the ally? Great stuff!
 
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"Just walk away".....
Those punks were not in the business of charging a fee for a phone, they were in the business of victimization. They don't just let customers "walk away" because they aren't in the mood to be mugged.

Stop talking silly.


Those punks obviously believe that their genetic swelling is a gift that allows them to forgo a real job in order live the easy live of intimidating for money. Since they hate real work, they're not going to put much effort into anything that they don't consider fun. Mashing your face in might be fun, but that'll only happen if you're within reach. They might laugh when you run away, but they're not going to run after someone who may not have more than 35 cents on them.

My previous point was that his friend screwed up because he ignored warning signs that, had they been acted on, could have been handled (perhaps less than gracefully) without drawing. If I had ignored those warnings too, I would probably have had hand on gun when the bullies came within 7-10 yards, and gun probably would have cleared leather when they split more than 90 degrees apart.

But then what?

At worst, their armed cohort(s) light me up from whichever direction I'm not looking.

Slightly less bad, a witness or cop sees me barking commands with gun drawn on two innocent and unarmed locals that just wanted to use the phone. I look like a paranoid/vigilante who's going to jail.

Better, I display a purely defensive posture by deliberately retreating the entire time, making it obvious my intent is to only break contact. Hopefully nobody will try to stop me, thinking I have just committed an armed robbery.


Thankfully, we know that the bullies left as soon as the gun was drawn. If that hadn't been the case and you had to shoot, you would then have to ask yourself if you had done everything you could have legally and morally to prevent that outcome. The legal bills and nightmares are going to suck.
 
eeyore 11-------is it the intent, that everytime you face evil that you must run away or capitulate to the demands given ?? You see a crime being committed, a women beaten, a child hurt and we run away ?? Thats whats wrong in this country today. We have ran away from what is wrong for so long that the laws have become reversed and the victim is always blamed for the problem. But you are correct, I will retreat.........but only to reload if the chance is provided.......
 
Eeyore, that is alot of 'if', speculation and add-water-and-mix psychoanalysis to bet your life on. And the outcomes of all of it firmly in the hands of your assailants.
Those punks obviously believe that their genetic swelling is a gift that allows them to forgo a real job in order live the easy live of intimidating for money. Since they hate real work, they're not going to put much effort into anything that they don't consider fun. Mashing your face in might be fun, but that'll only happen if you're within reach. They might laugh when you run away, but they're not going to run after someone who may not have more than 35 cents on them.
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That's quite the analysis you've done there, and you put all that together from your keyboard too! I imagine you'd be able to have them eating from your hand if you'd actually been able to see them...
...warning signs that, had they been acted on, could have been handled (perhaps less than gracefully) without drawing.
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More conjecture. You don't know what would have happened, you weren't there. It's possible the situation could have been defused without drawing, but it's also possible he could have had the living snot beaten out of him or worse. Again, an outcome determined by the assailants.
Slightly less bad, a witness or cop sees me barking commands with gun drawn on two innocent and unarmed locals that just wanted to use the phone. I look like a paranoid/vigilante who's going to jail.
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Yeah, I'd much rather have my family bawling by my hospital bed than be mistaken for a paranoid vigilante by some bystander.
Thankfully, we know that the bullies left as soon as the gun was drawn.
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Bullies? Lets call them what they were: robbers, criminals, muggers, bad guys, scum, slime, wastes of life. This wasn't a middle-school brawl shaping up here. The teacher wasn't going to come over and save him. He had only himself to rely on.

This hand-wringing and moral hair-splitting on the board here is so out of context that to just call it 'monday-morning quarterbacking' is being generous.

The man on the scene certainly thought the two 'bullies' were threatening enough to warrant displaying the weapon, the vast majority of 'reasonable persons' (in the legal sense) here on the thread seem to think that in his shoes, they'd do the same. And in support of his decision, it is worth noting that by displaying he ended the confrontation.

The bottom line is that by waiting longer than he did is putting himself at their mercy. The don't call that the 'point of no return' for nothing. Once they have the upper hand, once they are in the position of superiority (which they were moving to aquire), your life is no longer in your hands, it is in theirs.

That's the point: will you or will you not rely on the 'benevolence' of criminals for your continued existance? If you let them approach you, two men who obviously intend you no good to the point where they can control you if they so desire, what have you done? You've forfeited your life, that's what you've done. Maybe they'll let you go, maybe they won't. The point is it's no longer up to you.
 
GRD, I can't believe you haven't received an "AMEN BRUTHA!" on your posts here. I'm with you, man. This guy who was almost attacked walked away without revokation of his Honor Card, his Man Card, and most importantly, his Life Card. Amen!
 
GRD,

AMEN BROTHER!

I read your post after posting mine. I didn't realize that you were addressing another individual of less than sound judgement.

Again, AMEN BROTHER!

Beretta Cougar,

Without knowing the situation firsthand I would say that the gentleman acted reasonably and prudently. I submit that from the way you describe what should have occurred, had you been in the same situation as it transpired, you would have been robbed at the very least and dead at the very worst.

I don't know you personally. I don't know if you carry a weapon concealed. I don't know what your level of training is. I certainly don't know what your committment is to staying alive.

However from reading your point of view on this thread you may be dead and just not know it yet.

I too value human life and my life far exceeds the value of the two vermin described as the instigators in this thread. Remember they escalalated the situation. All they needed to do was mind their own business, let the gentleman in question use the phone unmolested without the implication of a threat implied or otherwise. They didn't do that. They anticipated that since there were two of them and one of him that they had the advantage. Of course they didn't know about the gun until they needed to. Once they became aware it appears sound judgement took over because these two wolves realized at that point that they had come across a sheep dog and not a sheep. Put it another way they realized that he had the advantage and that their lives were not worth the $10 that they were planning to forcibly extract from this person.

As I said I don't know your level of training and your level of judgement, but again just from what I've read are your responses to this thread, both appear low. You just seem too willing to give these predators the benefit of the doubt and too many advantages (as it was presented in this thread). For your safety and the safety of others that might be with you in a crisis get some solid training. It's out there, especially in Florida. I would recommend Options for Personel Security (OPS) which is based out of Sebring Florida. They do classes all over the Southeast and a little further North if I remember.

The life you save may be your own.

Respectfully,

Dave
 
eeyore 11-------is it the intent, that everytime you face evil that you must run away or capitulate to the demands given ?? You see a crime being committed, a women beaten, a child hurt and we run away ?? Thats whats wrong in this country today. We have ran away from what is wrong for so long that the laws have become reversed and the victim is always blamed for the problem. But you are correct, I will retreat.........but only to reload if the chance is provided.......
Click to expand...

Superhornet, I agree with your sentiment.

But in this era there is a dreadful risk of legal persecution and civil litigation for involving oneself in what appears to be a crime of violence.

I carry a weapon to protect myself and my family, this is as far as I have clear legal right to do.

I have read of a case where a child has been attacked, asks for help from a passing motorist, and accuses said motorist of sexual assault.

I have read of cases where a woman is being beaten by a man, and when police or bystanders intervene she assaults the "rescuers".

Welcome to the twenty-first century.

EC
 
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