Friend breaks up an attempted robbery!

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If 12% of the population was red-headed with freckles, and red-headed freckled people committed over 50% of the murders, and well over 60% of the violent crimes, would you pay close attention when a red-headed freckled guy came into your store, or would you, in a desire to be pc and non-judgmental, just pretend he was just like every other guy that walks in the door?

I have a sister-in-law who is a red head with freckles, and I love her dearly, so please stop shouting "racist" at me. This isn't about racism, its about realism.
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I can't say it better. I am hispanic (if it matters) and also have loved ones who are black, Filipino, and white. I still profile at work and in public.

Icedog88, I apologized if you weren't suggesting that those folks interested in the race of the perp are racists. Someone else did and I thought you were keeping it going.

Race may not have played a role in this but I always prefer to know myself. So I won't question others motives for wanting to know.

I do use many things in my self defense toolbox. Race, age, attire, even if someone has a child with them, all play a role in keeping me safe and the shop secure. If I told the thug looking dude that I was more concerned about him than the more conservative looking fellow they would be upset I'm sure but its the fact of life. I don't consider myself a racist or prejudice. I treat everyone as I would like to be treated.
 
Nervous and inexperienced? The shop owner is experienced enough to have the presence of mind to unbutton a holster and make ready, ... disarm the guy after he makes his move, and then decide to let the guy go...yet not enough presence of mind to try and ID the guy so the police can make quick work of him later? That's a darn shame.
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I'm not defending him but once he disarmed the bad guy he is now holding an unarmed man at gunpoint. If the guy decides to fight now am I still justified to use deadly force? My coworker is a big dude so claiming disparity in force is gonna be tough. He just seemed overwhelmed by the whole thing and the shop owner was almost zero help only grabbing the confiscated guns and putting them under the counter. He did pull and point but offered no assistance in what to do next.

Police were not upset and said it was smart to do so. Everyone over here at work busted his berries because now this idiot can do it again only with corrections if he isn't caught.

The store has cameras and they id'ed the car so hopefully he will be caught.
 
THat a very impressive story. Great way to be able to detect the body language of the man right when he was walking into the shop.
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Shop owner gets kudos for that for sure. Coworker was flappin his lips as usual and missed the bad guys entrance LOL. He is a wonderfully nice guy though. That may have also played a role in the choice to let him go. He did not want to shoot this guy. He would have but didn't want to.
 
threegun, in answer to one of your questions, I've been taught (by Mas Ayoob in person) that if the BG decides to continue the fight at that point, there are obviously deadly weapons present - your own, which he is actively trying to get.

So, if the BG tried to fight, yes you could shoot him to stop him.

OTOH, if he simply tried to break loose and run, shooting hime would be A BAD THING.

But there's no need to prove Disparity of Force once the deadly weapons are clearly present.

BTW, Mas recommended not trying to keep the BG on premises. He did go over how to detain somebody, but with the caveat that he only went over this because there were some people out there who would insist on trying to do so, so they might as well be stupid in the safest manner possible. But mostly, MAS advised non-LEO to just let the BG run.

I think your friend had the right idea.

OTOH, without meaning to MMQB too much, I am one of those people that would rather have the gun pressed against my neck, because now I know where it is, and my odds of a disarm go up astronomically. Not picking on your friend, just suggesting you advise him not to do that in future.
 
Threegun, I appreciate your candor. I have to disagree with you though on the profile of someone. If one were to look at me say, they would probably(and most often do) develop a negative impression. Having tattoos, earrings, and a perpetual scowl(thanks USMC!) doesn't say what I am. Which is a dark skinned, Life member of the NRA, Republican, American Legion Member who drives a Volvo:D. Many a business has lost my money because of the "profile" i may cast. So, I have to say that profiling of any kind often put us at a DIS advantage more than it helps. Just a person's skin color shouldn't relegate that INDIVIDUAL to a threat status. A person's ACTIONS however, should.
 
but once he disarmed the bad guy he is now holding an unarmed man at gunpoint. If the guy decides to fight now am I still justified to use deadly force?
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Just thinking out loud here: would the police likely have had a problem with your friend if he had placed the perp under citizen's arrest and/or detained him until the police arrived?

Assuming the cameras caught everything and the fact that there are multiple persons able to physically detain him (likely with little to no injury to all involved) for the short while awaiting the police to arrive, wouldn't a citizen's arrest would have gone fairly smoothly?
 
One major factor to consider, for those who think they should have detained the BG... you would now create a scenario where the police arrive to find men holding guns on somebody. Even if the dispatcher has been told the situation is under control, the arriving officers will be in high alert mode in case things have changed.

So... what's your plan for dealing with their arrival? Will you holster the guns before they come in, hoping that the BG doesn't take that opportunity to try something?

Will you be standing there when the cops arrive, and then drop your guns if so commanded, and hope the BG doesn't grab for one?

Who will talk to them? (Hint: it's a local shop, and the officers in that area probably know the store manager on sight; they may not know you.)

Detaining somebody is not really something you want to improvise in the situation. If you don't know how to do it, the risks are very high, not only from the BG, but also from arriving officers. Not casting aspersions on the cops, just noting that they may not know you from the BG, and you're holding a gun...
 
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Two ways I guess you could look at letting him go. If you detain until the police come, does he seek retribution while awaiting his trial? Or does he count his lucky stars and never return. Not even sure what I would do in that instance.
 
Just to throw my .02 cents into this lovely fray.

Most of you, especially shop owners, would likely see me as a threat. I dress somewhere between a hoodlum, and a school shooting stereotype. Long hair, Hispanic, perpetual scowl, usually have a bandanna, and often open carry a fixed blade knife when legal. I get looks, I've been accused of stealing, and I've been misunderstood by about everyone who owns a gun shop or pawn shop. I don't care, it doesn't bother me, it's actually understandable. You should see the old ladies when I go into their antique shop.

On the other side, the race can help understand the mentality. Hispanics in rural areas may be workers, and don't have much money, that's why they may be robbing a store. African Americans may simply be in the same boat, but only because they are having trouble with finding work. A white man may be after money for drugs, all the other races may be as well. In this sense, it helps understand the reason for the crime. I still don't see a reason to ask, since it wasn't relevant to the story.... People often see the "easy" ways out, before the right way.
 
Icedog88 is right. Not everyone here is of Nordic European descent. Some like me are of Mediterranean European descent, and some are of African, native, or Asian descent. If we make you so uncomfortable because of how we look that you feel like putting your hand on your gun every time we walk by, please keep that to yourself. Be respectful of those members that happen to be different than you.
 
BlackFeather, while I might cast a glance your way,more because you are visibly armed than anything, you are still welcome in my store:p. But,that being said, I don't give a rat's behind WHY the criminal commited the crime. Just as it makes no difference WHO committed the crime. My dander got up because the question was asked blatantly what the race of the criminal was. As if to say Blacks only commit these crimes or whites only commit this type and this is how you train against this mentality:p. What a crock. What? Now that he was let go and he was black we now know his mentality? Or because he is black,there is a certain way to deal mentally with him? Neither one makes much sense. There is no tactical course offered to deal with different races or training class that targets how to anticipate Chinese criminals. See what I mean? Horse pucky!
 
okay...since no one here seems up for a citizen's arrest, back to my "smile for the camera" comment. I would have even used my smartphone and taken a short video of his face from various angles...
 
When you're smilin', the whole world smiles with you...

If you smile at me
Then I will understand
'Cause that is something everybody everywhere
does in the same language.
-- from "Wooden Ships", by D. Crosby, S. Stills and P. Kantner

BlackFeather:
Most of you, especially shop owners, would likely see me as a threat. I dress somewhere between a hoodlum, and a school shooting stereotype. Long hair, Hispanic, perpetual scowl, usually have a bandanna, and often open carry a fixed blade knife when legal. I get looks, I've been accused of stealing, and I've been misunderstood by about everyone who owns a gun shop or pawn shop.
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BlackFeather, you and icedog88 mentioned going around with a scowl. That is a very powerful piece of negative body language. Even OJ, long before he was accused of brutal, bloody murder, was known for his smile and his friendly demeanor.

The single most effective way to avoid being "misunderstood", regardless of how you otherwise present yourself, is to lose that scowl. Try your best to think pleasant thoughts and put on a genuine smile when you enter a shop or interact with a stranger.

This is not a touchie-feelie Kumbaya message; it's a tactical insight into sizing up people and their intentions. A BG, unless he is a practiced pro or a psychopath, will have a hard time faking a smile, and the fakers will usually give themselves away. That's what often gives jihadists away, even though they are psychopaths.
 
It's honestly not like I do it on purpose, I don't think anyone does. It's usually just how I look. I am honestly too busy thinking about other, more important things than smiling. Don't get me wrong, I'll hold open a door for a lady, or anyone, and give them a smile. Usually, don't get a thank you, but :rolleyes:.

It's more dependent on how things are going that day, why I'm there, and who I'm around.
 
Believe me, the Corps doesn't want touchy feelie Kumbaya so that ain't even close:D. Is it more negative to walk around thinking that certain people present more of a threat than others because of their skin tone or walking around with my scowl that tells people don't even try it. Everything about my walk says JARHEAD! That's my training. Not even second nature. First nature. I don't really care if people are turned off by me not smiling all the time like some "touched" demented person.:p It's a tool in MY toolbox:D. It works exactly as designed. When I smile, small children cry so I've been told not to:D
 
blackfeather, I know what you're talking about: my wife says I do the same thing. The strange part is that I am not usually aware of it. I like to think of myself as a good-natured fellow and used to think that I presented a sunny outward appearance, but apparently not. I am always a little taken aback whenever she points it out to me that I am scowling.


But just the other day a little blue-haired lady tapped on my shoulder at the gas station and asked if i could help her inflate a tire that was low on her car. I guess my scowl wasn't to off-putting that day!
 
Why all of a sudden do we have folks trying to rob people that have guns on them in iopen view? That kinda alarms me to think they would do that. Kinda makes me feel like they are on a suicide mission, accomplish the misson or die in the attempt.

Is true bad people come from all wealks of life but around here it is the gangsta wannabes doing the violence, blacks and mexicans. Which is too bad these folks could get an education and get a good job, but no they would rather suck the govt teat and go around acting all bad and shooting each other.

Had a home invasion in a very nice neighborhood while the family was in the home. Best be prepared than not.
 
markj said:
Is true bad people come from all wealks of life but around here it is the gangsta wannabes doing the violence, blacks and mexicans. Which is too bad these folks could get an education and get a good job, but no they would rather suck the govt teat and go around acting all bad and shooting each other.
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I hate to say it, but that's not even racist, it's true. I can't say how many of my friends who are Hispanic, Black, Filipino, or even White who think the "Gangster" "culture" is cool. Usually the first two. I separated them in quotes, I know. I find the mentality to be disgusting, and I treat my friends as such when they act that way. No matter how you look at it, it's wrong and not worth pursuing. That's the problem though, it's "cool" because it's wrong, it has musical influence, and has flashy cars, clothes, money, and women. That attracts the young crowd, and I say that being one of the young crowd. My cousins were/are in gangs, so were my uncles, my step-grandfather was part of a branch of the Mexican mob and used to ship drugs. To be honest, I think what helped me stay out of it was my White father. Instead of hip-hop and drugs, I was influenced by metal, science, and martial arts. Which shows a lot as far as how a person is raised. Sorry for the life story. :o
 
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