freak muzzleloader loading accident
- Thread starter adam0bomb
- Start date
Uncle Billy
New member
JK Holman said:
I don't think that's a recommended way to clear a weapon; look at the results.
Blaming the 209 conversion kit without having clear and precise knowledge of how it caused the inadvertent discharge is an example of a fallacy of argument called "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" in Latin. It means that just because event B happened after event A, it doesn't mean event A caused event B. Just because the tragic discharge happened after the 209 kit was installed, doesn't mean the kit caused the discharge. There are way too many other variables involved that have to be shown to be non-contributory in order to blame the conversion kit even a little.
In order to win a suit against the company that made the conversion kit, it seems to me you'd have to prove the kit was flawed in design, and then prove how that flaw caused the inadvertent discharge. You'd also have to prove somehow that the kit was installed correctly and that nothing was done in that process that led to damage which could have caused the discharge. Then you'd have to show that in loading the gun there were no mistakes made and no steps omitted which could cause or lead to such a discharge. Then, because the risks attendant to using BP are well known and well documented you'd have to show that the gun was handled in a way that an inadvertent discharge would not cause injury because doing so is commonly known to be required to prevent injury- and obviously that wasn't the situation here. In all of that lies the company's defense. If it's clear that all of those facts line up in a way that leads to the unavoidable conclusion that the company was at fault, then the suit is legit, as I see it. But any less conclusive lineup means the suit is frivolous and speculative, and as I see it, it lacks honor.
It seems to me that taking an objective look at all that's involved in cases such as this BEFORE one "lawyers up" - using critical thinking principles to sort out the facts, and taking responsibility for one's errors- is necessary to preserve one's character and honor. It also could save a lot of everyone's money on legal fees. There are lawyers all ready to take your case even when they know full well that it's a loser, because fees are earned whatever the outcome. And they also know that these sorts of cases are often settled in favor of the unprovable lawsuit when the defendant decides it's cheaper to pay up rather than pay for a defense- the case is settled in the terms of a cost-benefit ratio, not proof. Meanwhile, justice and integrity take a hike and it's all about dirty money for the plaintiff and his lawyer. I think ethics such as that stink in the extreme.
Pellet-replacements in BP flintlock pistol
This, a black powder topic, was left in General Discussion (not moved to the black powder forum) because it was safety related and we thought the exposure was a good idea.
If we are moving back to typical black powder discussions, then we are moving to the correct forum.
This, a black powder topic, was left in General Discussion (not moved to the black powder forum) because it was safety related and we thought the exposure was a good idea.
If we are moving back to typical black powder discussions, then we are moving to the correct forum.
In a word, yes. Ignition will be unreliable at best, probably nonexistent the majority of the time. You must use a real black powder primer in the main charge if you're going to use any form of substitute black powder. Even with the bp primer the Pyrodex pellets will be problematic.
No.
CaptainCrossman
Moderator
I often wonder how someone could win a lawsuit like that, because the 2 guys were there alone, for all we know the gun was capped and cocked, and went off naturally- and a story could be cooked up to cover that fact, and the 2 guys could split the money proceeds from the lawsuit. That seems very dubious to me. Just my intuition, but yes it happens.
when I'm loading my c/b pistols, I often wonder, while pouring powder in, what if there's a hot ember in there ? It could light the powder stream pouring from the flask, and detonate the entire flask in your hand, while pouring powder in the cylinders.
that's why the cannons back in the day, swabbed the bore with a damp ramrod, to put out any embers first, before reloading
sundance44s
New member
I don`t understand how the maker of the 209 conversion should be remotely at falt for this accident .
Unless the conversion maker said it was safe to load the gun with the conversion capped ...
With the walk down range before the gun was reloaded I would rule out burning embers ...
Was the 209 cap in place on the conversion when the rifle was being loaded ?????????
I have no Idea if this was the case or not ...if there was no cap in place on the conversion say so ...
and if there was no cap on the conversion ...why would you think the conversion may have caused the rifle to discharge while loading ???? explain how it could .
Glad to hear you were not harmed any worse than you were ...
I shoot timed muzzleloader events monthly ......never seen this happen in 35 years of muzzleloading .
Something else I don`t understand about this story ,.,.,why were you shooting patched round balls out of an inline muzzleloader rifle with 100 grs of powder ???.......I doubt you could keep the balls on paper at 50 yards .
Unless the conversion maker said it was safe to load the gun with the conversion capped ...
With the walk down range before the gun was reloaded I would rule out burning embers ...
Was the 209 cap in place on the conversion when the rifle was being loaded ?????????
I have no Idea if this was the case or not ...if there was no cap in place on the conversion say so ...
and if there was no cap on the conversion ...why would you think the conversion may have caused the rifle to discharge while loading ???? explain how it could .
Glad to hear you were not harmed any worse than you were ...
I shoot timed muzzleloader events monthly ......never seen this happen in 35 years of muzzleloading .
Something else I don`t understand about this story ,.,.,why were you shooting patched round balls out of an inline muzzleloader rifle with 100 grs of powder ???.......I doubt you could keep the balls on paper at 50 yards .
W. C. Quantrill
New member
I am of the thought that when lawsuits are made that the losing party should pay all the legal fees. If the judge is on his toes and assigns the legal costs to the losing party, then a lot of this frivilous lawsuit business would quit.
andrewstorm
Moderator
ka boom
ive heard of people,shooting off there foot,but man your lucky,do u guys use 777 or blk pwder? never have i had this problen ,and i do a 5 sec reload,with powder or pellets.better late than never
ive heard of people,shooting off there foot,but man your lucky,do u guys use 777 or blk pwder? never have i had this problen ,and i do a 5 sec reload,with powder or pellets.better late than never
I failed to read every post so if this is a duplicate theory please excuse me.
I have a possible explanation of this phenomenon.
Lets assume that the only possible cause of ignition was an ember remaining in the area surrounding the breech plug internal tip.
A pellet is a solid object and will not readily assume the shape of its vessel. Loose powder will.
If that ember was near the threads of the breech plug, there may have been no contact with the pellet until additional force was applied to the ram rod to seat the ball. There by crushing the pellet which was then allowed to fill the area of the combustion chamber and only then contact the ember.
And the terrible result. I wish you a speedy recovery.
I know this is an old post but saftey does not go out of style!
I have a possible explanation of this phenomenon.
Lets assume that the only possible cause of ignition was an ember remaining in the area surrounding the breech plug internal tip.
A pellet is a solid object and will not readily assume the shape of its vessel. Loose powder will.
If that ember was near the threads of the breech plug, there may have been no contact with the pellet until additional force was applied to the ram rod to seat the ball. There by crushing the pellet which was then allowed to fill the area of the combustion chamber and only then contact the ember.
And the terrible result. I wish you a speedy recovery.
I know this is an old post but saftey does not go out of style!
Rifleman1776
New member
I'm late on this discussion and I have not read all the replies.
I have been muzzle loading for over 40 years and have been active with many clubs, including NMLRA.
I once saw an ml pistol, with real bp, go off spontaneously about ten minutes after loading and, maybe fifteen after the last shot was fired. Lingering embers can do that.
Did you swab the bore between shots? I'm guessing, no.
BTW blowing down the bore is prohibited at all NMLRA sanctioned matches as unsafe.
Some lubricants can burn and linger hot.
I always swab between shots, even when hunting where time is a factor. But, I consider safety a factor of greater importance.
This thread reminds me of a couple others where proponents of unsafe practices brag "It ain't blowed up, yet". I just love the "yet" part.
I have been muzzle loading for over 40 years and have been active with many clubs, including NMLRA.
I once saw an ml pistol, with real bp, go off spontaneously about ten minutes after loading and, maybe fifteen after the last shot was fired. Lingering embers can do that.
Did you swab the bore between shots? I'm guessing, no.
BTW blowing down the bore is prohibited at all NMLRA sanctioned matches as unsafe.
Some lubricants can burn and linger hot.
I always swab between shots, even when hunting where time is a factor. But, I consider safety a factor of greater importance.
This thread reminds me of a couple others where proponents of unsafe practices brag "It ain't blowed up, yet". I just love the "yet" part.
Interesting thread. Please excuse my ignorance but from what I gather- we are talking about an inline muzzle loader with 209 ignition. Black powder pellets (I thought all the pellets were substitutes), and a patched round ball. I assume the 209 primer was not on the gun while loading. You waited about 5 minutes put down the pellets- no problem- then rammed the ball and as it was fully seated the gun went off with no 209 primer- is that correct?
Just some thoughts......
1. I think I may share an ASSUMPTION with others that an ember in the bore is a short lived event. How long can an ember stay hot? Does the fouling from black powder act like char cloth and hold an ember for a long time and would blowing down the barrel do any good? If this has happened ONLY with an inline- does the grease on the threads of the breech plug react with powder residue to form some type of gummy substance that holds an ember?
HOW TO PREVENT this type accident is the big concern. I usually swab between shots just to get rid of residue which makes it easier to load the next round. If I swab every time instead every 5th or 10th shot- I feel each shot gets the same treatment so the accuracy ought to be a bit better. In any event swabbing between shots may be a good safety practice.
2. On the thread grease idea- I don't clean the bore before the first shot but maybe getting any remnant of grease out of the bore is a good idea. I figured the first shot would just burn it up.
3. Is there a compressed air issue? In other words, if you are familiar with a fire piston, does the trapped air get compressed and "supercharge" the space remaining which invited an explosion?
Seems to me, it is well worth trying to get a definite answer on what caused this accident.
Just some thoughts......
1. I think I may share an ASSUMPTION with others that an ember in the bore is a short lived event. How long can an ember stay hot? Does the fouling from black powder act like char cloth and hold an ember for a long time and would blowing down the barrel do any good? If this has happened ONLY with an inline- does the grease on the threads of the breech plug react with powder residue to form some type of gummy substance that holds an ember?
HOW TO PREVENT this type accident is the big concern. I usually swab between shots just to get rid of residue which makes it easier to load the next round. If I swab every time instead every 5th or 10th shot- I feel each shot gets the same treatment so the accuracy ought to be a bit better. In any event swabbing between shots may be a good safety practice.
2. On the thread grease idea- I don't clean the bore before the first shot but maybe getting any remnant of grease out of the bore is a good idea. I figured the first shot would just burn it up.
3. Is there a compressed air issue? In other words, if you are familiar with a fire piston, does the trapped air get compressed and "supercharge" the space remaining which invited an explosion?
Seems to me, it is well worth trying to get a definite answer on what caused this accident.