Four deputies refuse to make entry into school

Could be training, too. Proper active shooter training is enormously expensive
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Could also be cross-training. IF the other agency had already entered the building and was clearing it another team attempting to do the same thing may result in crossfire issues.

While I am heavily concerned about the responding officers that failed to enter and willing to push the SRO who was on scene when it started and failed to act "under the bus" I am going to delineate the two issues as separate and at least want to hear why the responding deputies did not enter.

I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to them as individuals (though not to the department as a whole). They may have effectively been told to "lead, follow, or get out of the way" and lacked the necessary leadership to properly lead (or follow) or simply been second on scene with an effective leadership set up by the other department and handling the situation which, by most accounts, was over by then.
 
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I agree with you Cirdan about the police going straight in. My question is how come four sheriff deputies got there ahead of the police? Are they located closer to the schooL?

It almost sounds like the Sheriff's men were there when the shooting was ongoing. Then the shooting had ceased prior to the police arriving. This is another reason why there should be an investigation by the Florida Department of investigation. The official investigagion of the Broward Sheriff's Dept. should not be conducted by the Sheriff.
 
Police versus Sheriff

Sheriff's departments are county jurisdictions. Cities may or may not have their own police for city limits. It is typical that the areas they patrol, and the institutions they are responsible for, to overlap. It is NORMAL.
If county has the responsibility for the school district, they place the School officer. Even if the school is in a city with its own police, but does not cover the school district. Even with overlap, in an emergency, either or both, may get there first and they cooperate, although one will eventually exert jurisdiction, and primary authority (do the paperwork).
In some remote areas, state highway patrol may be the first responders, simply because they have a station in the area and can get there first, while deputies will come asap, later.
 
The official investigagion of the Broward Sheriff's Dept. should not be conducted by the Sheriff.
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I agree. He does not have time anyway, because he's too busy covering his assets, when he isn't amazing everyone with his leadership.

Personally, I think you can start a 24 hour clock now until he is removed or resigns.
 
Marco Calilfo I would like to rearrange your last sentence to read:

"Personally, I think you can start a 24 hour clock now until he is removed or resigns and it started 24,000 hours too late."

The more I see of that guy leaves me to believe his ego is the size of the Hindenburg.
 
I get the impression from the sheriff himself that he has no intention of resigning. He praised his own great leadership.
 
I think the Sheriff is using all this free publicity to prepare for an upcoming run for the State or even US legislature.
 
"he has no intention of resigning."
True. He is dellusional. He is only fooling himself. But you can stick a fork in him, he is DONE.
He will need a gentle nudge from the governor, which FLA politicians have already demanded and petitioned for. He wont resign unless he is given an ultimatum: resign or be removed.
His political career is over, and he is a liability to everyone. Maybe he will reemerge as a talk show host with Marcia Clark, called the Biggest Losers.
 
He’s on the side that has the moral high ground, he will be sheriff until his term is up and will probably get re-elected.
 
I hear a lot of talk about "training", and I've certainly had my fair share on Uncle Stupid's dime. I'm middle aged now. I get training because firearms are a hobby and it's fun. But, I'm just not following... Are we sending everyone through the SEAL CQB trainer, teaching shoot houses, or the USS Boarding Party trainer? Which school shooting in the modern era required a special warfare team to rectify? Are they learning stack and hack with MP5s? Are we going to be fighting Spetnaz in the school halls?

Who thinks it's the gun and not the hand that it's in? Why are we even discussing this on the terms of the gun grabbers who probably have never even held one much less had any "training"? As if the firearm or "training" were some talisman! Both are good, but a person with a .22 and willing heart is obviously worth 100 trained deputies who get behind their cars and decline to go.

Maybe I'm just not as smart as all the talking heads repeating this word, "training", because if I'm near my kids school and hear gunfire and screaming I don't need any training to know that I have to get in there and put down goblins as fast as I possibly can. I don't care if it's a jihadi with an AK, a 19 y/o with an AR, or a Spetsnaz on a Dishka; with my bear hands if I have to no regrets. If you want to stop me you had better but some bullets in me fast, because I'm not stopping. I am 100% certain of this no chest thumpery needed. Now, if it was your kids school I'd like to believe I'd do the same. I don't believe I could live with myself if I didn't, but if my kid is in there there's nothing to think about, and no repercussion that moves my meter. My life is worthless next to my boy's, and I would hope I would feel the same way about my students if I was a teacher. There is no question some did and revealed who they were to God and to all of us.

By my reckoning it's pretty darn easy to be a hero when there are children being murdered within earshot. I'd rather be dead than have stood by. To me this is truth, and if you can't make a policy around the truth and reality then you're an idiot.
 
By my reckoning it's pretty darn easy to be a hero when there are children being murdered within earshot. I'd rather be dead than have stood by
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I am firmly in the "not my circus not my monkeys" in regards to citizen intervention of an ongoing criminal act. Violence against children and those who cannot be expected to defend themselves is where even I draw the line and make an exception.
 
He’s on the side that has the moral high ground, he will be sheriff until his term is up and will probably get re-elected.
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Correction: He's on the side that THINKS they have the moral high ground. Unfortunately, their high ground is being loweredeach minute that it is associated with the weasel.
 
for those saying the officers have a legal duty to, this is complicated since obviously they also are released from this if hey are in mortal danger, and I believe the case law is that they do not have to risk injury. Now sure they can still be fired in some cases, if they don't follow policy, but they are not required to put themselves in mortal danger. It is not the military.

I think the much bigger failure in this case were before the shooting, with local law enforcement and FBi headquarters having concrete and actionable information. Their actions before this occurred, were incredibly incompetent.


But I would say the more important point to keep in mind is that we need to avoid looking at specific cases since:
a) all of them have different sets of circumstances and all of different sets or weights of variables or measures that would reduce risk of occurrence.
b) they are statistically trivial in homicide. (now sure you can't say that without a backlash, but it is a fact).

The issue with police in schools, armed guards in Schools, or trained and armed staff where being armed would be secondary, is not a binary of success=total prevention of violence in schools, or not, but questions of reduction and deterrence. I will go with the data.. When one looks at equal demographic schools with similar local area violent crime rates, armed personnel at schools result in less assault's, aggravated assaults, robberies, sexual assaults and homicides in the school.

When the NRA made the suggestion after Sandy Hook, NRA was mocked by media and gun lobby using stats that compared police presence in schools in places like Compton to 90210 type schools with no armed personnel. That is a ludicrous comparison. comparisons of similar crime rate areas show armed personnel they do reduce crime.

We also ought to consider, and this is utterly lost in the discussion, that homicide rate of school age children in the US has not been lower in 40 years. Despite some of us felling like murder of kids is up due to wall to wall, if it bleeds it leads coverage , it is down to half of the rate of 25 years ago.
 
Law Enforcement Oath of Honor

On my honor, I will never betray my badge, my integrity, my character or the public trust.

I will always have the courage to hold myself and others accountable for our actions.

I will always uphold the constitution, my community, and the agency I serve.


International Association of Chiefs of Police
 
lamarw said:
Law Enforcement Oath of Honor

On my honor, I will never betray my badge, my integrity, my character or the public trust.

I will always have the courage to hold myself and others accountable for our actions.

I will always uphold the constitution, my community, and the agency I serve.


International Association of Chiefs of Police
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The IACP is a membership organization. That "oath" is their advertising slogan, just like "To Serve and Protect" on the sides of many patrol vehicles. That's not the oath of office that LEOs swear when being handed their badge.
 
Good to know that "To Serve and Protect" is just a marketing slogan. Presumably just to justify their taxpayer funded salaries.

And here I had always considered it more of a promise. I'm so naive.
 
TDL, I agree. If we go with the data how many of these mass shootings happen in a gun free zone? 100%? If some of them no longer wear the gun buster and legal CCW are armed inside I think we would get numbers that the antis can't abide.

We are not fighting people who care about school safety, or even the lives of children. Collectivists believe you have to break a few eggs in any event. We are fighting a goal, and disarming the American public is just a step, but it is a big one.
 
I hear a lot of talk about "training", and I've certainly had my fair share on Uncle Stupid's dime. I'm middle aged now. I get training because firearms are a hobby and it's fun. But, I'm just not following... Are we sending everyone through the SEAL CQB trainer, teaching shoot houses, or the USS Boarding Party trainer?
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Different worlds, right? LE training tends to weigh risk vs reward as opposed to "accomplish the mission at all costs," like the military. This may result in taking a slow and methodical approach (wait for more people and more assets), when the more aggressive approach is better(go now with what you have).

Most Active Shooter programs are designed to help officers recognize the difference and respond by moving toward the "stimulus." They also incorporate basic movements with a team, a team that might be comprised of officers from different agencies, who rarely work together.
because if I'm near my kids school and hear gunfire and screaming I don't need any training to know that I have to get in there and put down goblins as fast as I possibly can. I don't care if it's a jihadi with an AK, a 19 y/o with an AR, or a Spetsnaz on a Dishka; with my bear hands if I have to no regrets.
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I know what you mean, but there are counterpoints to every dude with a gun showing up. At the Beslan school siege, locals showed up with all sorts of small arms, making the Spetnaz's assault that more difficult because any movement inside the building, be it friend, foe, or hostage, attracted uncoordinated gunfire from the folks outside. "Terror at Beslan" is a horrifying book, if you haven't read it yet.
 
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