For Currently Employed LEOs

Voters can't replace leaders who are not chosen by the voters.
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Voters can replace the leaders who set policy, choose those individuals, and they can vote in leadership that emphasizes the values the electorate wants in office.

For example...

Under one President's Administration....

Offensive kinetic Ops in the GWOT ground to a halt and our enemies where given a break they badly needed including a influx of cash.

When new leadership was elected that all changed and offensive kinetic ops came back putting our enemies back on the defensive.
 
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Sounds like many Departments are confusing Officer Survival Tactics and marksmanship/weapon skills. They have a training issue.
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Davidsog, actually what I am saying is that when officer tactics and marksmanship/weapon skills training are not extensively supplemented with training in the sociological aspects related to the nature of their occupation in civilian law enforcement, an imbalance occurs and as a result more people needlessly die.

As a well-trained police officer, I soon learned that to perform my duties appropriately I was going to have to occasionally take huge risks whether I liked it or not. I saw doing so as being my duty to the people I served.
 
Personally, I think we're swinging too far in the direction of exposing police officers to unnecessary danger.

I recently watched a video where a guy with a knife backed a cop down the street for around a block with the cop pointing a gun at him and screaming for him to stop and drop the knife the whole time. The attacker was eventually killed, but only after getting his hands on the cop and trying to take his gun. If society were made up of more people like me, that cop would have been comfortable resolving that situation much more quickly and without having to expose himself to nearly as much risk.
 
Problem is if departments train their officers too extensively on the range or at least more-so than that which is commonly practiced by other agencies in their geographic region, they get accused of training killers.
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I never heard of that.
 
I've worked full time for one agency in my career and part time for three others over the years.

All of my chiefs were civil service who could only be removed for cause. None ever were. One guy did make a few dumb decisions and manage to burn some bridges with the village board but he exited to another job after getting a letter of reprimand.

NO, most police departments aren't spending their budget buying surplus military equipment from the Federal Government. Where do people come up with such foolish notions?

Twenty years ago or so it was possible to get surplus M-16 and elderly NVGs and a few other things through the DRMO program. It was a bureaucratic nightmare to get anything, and only a few agencies in my area even bothered. I believe the program still exists but I'm not sure.

The city police did get a free (or low cost) MRAP vehicle and quickly discovered that it was WAY too big for it's intended use. After a few years they replaced it with a Lenco Bearcat.

It always fascinates me when people who are not in law enforcement and have no idea what they are talking about choose to share their ignorance. It's okay if you don't actually know. You don't have to say anything in that case.
 
That MRAP was nearly free because it was surplus.

AND THEY DON'T HAVE IT ANY MORE because it turned out to be TOO BIG, have unexpectedly poor performance off a hard surface and to be top heavy. They replaced it with a LENCO Bearcat.

(I don't know where the MRAP went -- some other police agency)
 
Jeff22 said:
That MRAP was nearly free because it was surplus.

AND THEY DON'T HAVE IT ANY MORE because it turned out to be TOO BIG, have unexpectedly poor performance off a hard surface and to be top heavy. They replaced it with a LENCO Bearcat.

(I don't know where the MRAP went -- some other police agency)
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I get that but you asked where people get the idea that PDs are getting a bunch of military gear and 'look' like they are a 'military' outfit..is all..
NO, most police departments aren't spending their budget buying surplus military equipment from the Federal Government. Where do people come up with such foolish notions?
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NOT saying it's NOT necessary but PD all over are getting a bunch of this stuff.
 

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"PD all over are getting a bunch of this stuff"

And the reason LEO's are "getting a bunch of this stuff" is due to Officer safety. Cops are dying. It is not part of a secret "New World Order" agenda, as has been alluded to by others on social media. It IS all about SAFETY! Watch the nightly news or research Officer.com and you will see that law enforcement officers are being killed on an almost daily basis around the Country. Between meth labs, gangs, wacko's, drugged up anti social ex cons, armed anti police thugs claiming a political Agenda in order to justify rioting, looting and destroy / burning their neighborhoods, is it any wonder why LEO's want better equipment and a strong military like presence?
LEO Adminstrators currently face huge issues trying to recruit new Officers... not many want the stress, danger, liability and BS (anti LEO media and lawmakers), that comes with the job. FAR better money and satisfaction available in the Trades! If your child or grandchild wanted to become a Cop (and you couldn't talk them out of it!!), wouldn't you want them armed and equipped with the BEST technology and weapons available?
If technology, better equipment and a military like appearance saves Officers lives and increases recruiting, then so be it. We expect people to enforce the law in today's America and risk their lives doing it? Then equip them properly and support them instead of constantly criticizing them. We are a nation of Laws. Someone has to enforce those laws. This isn't 1955.
This is 2020... good luck finding the Town of Mayberry. :rolleyes:
 
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shurshot said:
"PD all over are getting a bunch of this stuff"

And the reason LEO's are "getting a bunch of this stuff" is due to Officer safety. Cops are dying. It is not part of a secret "New World Order" agenda, as has been alluded to by others on social media. It IS all about SAFETY! Watch the nightly news or research Officer.com and you will see that law enforcement officers are being killed on an almost daily basis around the Country. Between meth labs, gangs, wacko's, drugged up anti social ex cons, armed anti police thugs claiming a political Agenda in order to justify rioting, looting and destroy / burning their neighborhoods, is it any wonder why LEO's want better equipment and a strong military like presence?
LEO Adminstrators currently face huge issues trying to recruit new Officers... not many want the stress, danger, liability and BS (anti LEO media and lawmakers), that comes with the job. FAR better money and satisfaction available in the Trades! If your child or grandchild wanted to become a Cop (and you couldn't talk them out of it!!), wouldn't you want them armed and equipped with the BEST technology and weapons available?
If technology, better equipment and a military like appearance saves Officers lives and increases recruiting, then so be it. We expect people to enforce the law in today's America and risk their lives doing it? Then equip them properly and support them instead of constantly criticizing them. We are a nation of Laws. Someone has to enforce those laws. This isn't 1955.
This is 2020... good luck finding the Town of Mayberry. :rolleyes:
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Calm down, I was answering what the guy said about 'Where do people come up with such foolish notions?"..And I DID say,
"NOT saying it's NOT necessary but PD all over are getting a bunch of this stuff."

I never made any comment on whether or not PDs should or should NOT 'look' like military outfits..I NOT Criticizing ANYBODY..
 
The reality is that police departments aren't getting this military gear because they need it, they're getting it becauser the government is giving it away and most PDs, like most people, just can't say "No" to free [stuff]. In recent years, I've taken Citizens' Police Academy courses at two nearby police departments. Both departments have Humvees that were given to them as surplus by the U.S. military. They said the government practically begged them to take them ... so they did.

And what they found was that they were worse than useless as civilian, police vehicles. They're slow, and they require so much maintenance (requiring parts not readily available to civilians, even police departments -- such as the 24-volt electrical system) that they couldn't afford to keep them on the road. So both departments parked them in a garage and basically forgot about them. Both departments showed them to us as part of the class that included a tour of the facilities, but nobody could remember when the respective vehicles had actually been driven.

IMHO, based on information from two actual police departments, is that PDs are not actively seeking out surplus military vehicles and gear because the senior department heads have determined they have a need for the stuff, they are just accepting the stuff from the federal government because they don't know how to say "No."
 
Aquila, In the mid 90's they tried to sell them to the Border Patrol. They put three in San Diego and told the Agents that they could not hurt them or gt them stuck...... Within 3 hours they were stuck and/or broken.

Plus at the time, to repair them they had to go back to AM General....
 
Jeff22: NO, most police departments aren't spending their budget buying surplus military equipment from the Federal Government. Where do people come up with such foolish notions?
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I don’t think anyone actually said that in this thread, Jeff. I know I certainly didn’t. What law enforcement agencies ARE doing is spending increasing proportions of their budgets to militarize their departments and/or taking advantage of government giveaways. Thanks primarily to the Pentagon's 1033 program, which allows law enforcement agencies to get their hands on Department of Defense technology, between 1998 and 2014 the dollar value of military hardware sent to police departments skyrocketed from $9.4 million to $796.8 million. Also as the police have militarized, focus has shifted from one who keeps the peace to one who enforces the law. That is an important difference.

With the militarization of law enforcement comes (in addition to other problems) increases in civil liberties violations, increased surveillance abuses, excessive use of force, substantial increases in the use of special tactical or “SWAT” type teams to the point that such use oftentimes becomes routine, and alienation from the communities they serve.

Let’s face it, it may be ok to have much of the equipment and for the most part a good thing at that. But, dressing up patrol officers to look like (and oftentimes act like) combat troops does nothing to enhance their image.

Looking and acting like an authoritarian occupation army does nothing to help to nullify the “us verse them” mentalities of the officers or the public they serve.

Jeff22: It always fascinates me when people who are not in law enforcement and have no idea what they are talking about choose to share their ignorance.
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Why would one have to be in law enforcement to be able to recognize the negative consequences of the militarization of our law enforcement community?

Shurshot: And the reason LEO's are "getting a bunch of this stuff" is due to Officer safety. Cops are dying.
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https://nleomf.org/facts-figures/officer-deaths-by-year

Unfortunately that has always been the case. What I’m trying to emphasize is that the way to more effectively lower these numbers is by improving LEO’S relationship with the public. Of course they also need to be effectively equipped to safely do their jobs.
 
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Jeff22: It always fascinates me when people who are not in law enforcement and have no idea what they are talking about choose to share their ignorance.

I second that. Well stated Jeff!
 
I second that. Well stated Jeff!
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Shurshot,

If your comment was in directedto me, you should know I'm a retired police officer. I also worked for several years as a sworn peace officer for the Arizona State Judiciary.

So what do you two think about the benefits of improving law enforcement officer's overall relationship with the citizens in their communities? Does that make sense to you two? Do you two think the militarization of civilian law enforcement helps to achieve that goal?
 
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Zoo, it wasn't directed specifically at you. But since you appear to take exception to our comments / opinions, I'll share my perspective a bit more in depth.

There is a strong atmosphere of anti LEO sentiment across the entire nation right now, more so than in past years. Some officers are even leary of doing their job as they are unsure if their own Administrators will back them up if "it" hits the fan. There are some VERY vocal people in the media / online who have no idea what they are talking about, criticizing Police every chance they get, deserved or not. A little whiff of that anti LEO sentiment blows into TFL on occasion, which irritates some of us, hence the previous comments.

It's been said that a few bad apples spoil the barrel. I agree with that. It's a fact that a few bad LEO's deserve incarceration for their criminal behavior. Lock them up, absolutely! The corrupt cops make us all look bad. Hold LEO's to a higher standard, I agree. The Constitutional rights of law abiding Americans should be of more importance than a corrupt individual on a power trip. Unfortunately some forget their oath and what our flag truly represents when their egos and prejudice take charge. This is precisely why we have internal affairs divisions, Attorney generals and Federal Government, to oversee and investigate individuals and Agencies. Honest Officers have nothing to fear. We are a nation of laws, this is exactly how it should be.

But when the left wing media, ANTIFA extremists, politicians and the just plain ignorant start inferring that ALL law enforcement are jack booted thugs, bullies, etc. and inciting civil disobedience, calling for the disarmament of officers, defunding of Police Departments requests for equipment and training, demanding lax enforcement of the law by the Courts.... it is wrong. The law applies to ALL, but without enforcement, it is useless. And without respect for the law (and fair and just judicial enforcement), and respect for those who wear the badge to enforce the law, society WILL NOT fare well over time. For our system, a nation of Laws and not men, to work as it should, it requires teeth.

RESPECT is needed and necessary from both the public and LEO's. Respect, understanding and polite communication from both parties (LEO and civilians), will go along way towards making our society better. Bodycams keep everyone honest. ;)

Expansion and implementation of training pertaining to mental health issues, cultural differences and conflict desculation are already at the top of the list for most Agencies. More training, education and respect for community members is always a good thing. Most of us live in the same communitys we serve. We all seek peace and tranquility.

As far as the military type equipment, training and appearance of agency's across the US, you take issue with that, even if it saves fellow officers lives? Seriously???? :eek: You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I would think as a retired LEO and taxpayer you would want a civil nation controlled by the RULE OF LAW, and not by rioters, arsonists, looters and armed thugs / extremists who are often better armed than the local police who are hired to enforce the law? You don't think Officers deserve or need military grade equipment & training to deal with vicious and heavily armed MS-13 gang members, various Mexican drug Cartels, "Baltimore" type riots where people are burning down their own neighborhoods, white supremacist / prison gangs, Outlaw biker gangs involved in the narcotics and arms trade, etc.??
LEO live's don't matter? If you were in Law enforcement,
You MUST have seen Intel bulletins and be aware of what was / is going on? Nightly news perhaps? How long ago did you retire?? :confused:

"So what do you two think about the benefits of improving law enforcement officer's overall relationship with the citizens in their communities? Does that make sense to you two? Do you two think the militarization of civilian law enforcement helps to achieve that goal?" (Zoo)

I'm all for the improvement of relationships between officers and community's... trust me, but NOT at the risk of Officer safety. If that means using military equipment and training to keep the peace and enforce Law & Order, I'm ALL FOR IT. :D

I certainly wouldn't want to live in a corrupted nation where the Police, Courts, government and Military were ALL afraid of, outgunned, and controlled by Drug Cartels, like in Mexico. [B][

Ever hear of "plata o plomo" ("Silver or lead")? Not much of a choice, is it? :rolleyes::[/I][/
 
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Not every department is dealing with MS13. That’s a reality. Many departments do face significant challenges, but the notion that most of them are outgunned is, IMO, overstated these days. You can certainly take significant threats as examples and suggest that every department is dealing with that. I’m not sure that’s particularly honest. As for wanting the rule of law, I don’t think anyone here has suggested they don’t want the rule of law. Wanting the rule of law while recognizing that there need to be some limitations and oversight on the people that enforce that law is not, to me, mutually exclusive. Obviously we can disagree on what is too much or not enough when it comes to limitations and oversight.


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