When I turned in the guns that belonged to the departments/agencies I was leaving they (the guns) were already clean. I always cleaned my guns after using them and if not recently used at various intervals between use. If they weren't then inspected after being returned, shame on them.
For Currently Employed LEOs
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I've worked for one agency full time and three agencies part time in my career (which is almost 40 years)
When I first started, we all went to the Sheriff's Dept range once a month and shot some kind of PPC type qual course that involved shooting from 7 to 25 yards. The courses of fire were all 50 rounds. We had to shoot a minimum of 9 times in a year (450 rounds -- if you shot every month you shot 600 rnds in a year)
After a few years we switched to having a full day of inservice training each quarter. About half of each day was shooting. We shot 60 to 100 rnds of handgun each time. With the M870 shotgun, it was always 5 00 buckshot on steel targets, 5 slugs on paper targets and 10 rounds of bird shot, sometimes on clay pigeons and sometimes on steel targets. When we replaced the shotguns with AR-15 pattern rifles, we usually shot 30 to 50 rounds each training session. The off-duty gun course required 30 rounds and you had to qual with any off duty guns once a calendar year.
I myself shoot 250 rounds a month in practice with my duty gun (currently a Glock 22). I occasionally shoot in local USPSA and IDPA matches and try to go to one or two shooting classes a year.
I have .22 conversions for many of my guns and the .22s get used a lot indoors in the winter.
Most of the cops I have worked with over the years NEVER shoot in practice. A few were/are diligent and shoot 50 or 100 rounds in practice before each quarterly training session, but they are in the minority.
Generally we do training with Simunitions FX rounds or Air Soft guns about once a year, but we haven't done any of that in the last several years. We are over-due for active shooter response training.
We got ballistic shields a few years ago, and usually train with them once a year and probably shoot 30 rounds while doing so.
When I first started, we all went to the Sheriff's Dept range once a month and shot some kind of PPC type qual course that involved shooting from 7 to 25 yards. The courses of fire were all 50 rounds. We had to shoot a minimum of 9 times in a year (450 rounds -- if you shot every month you shot 600 rnds in a year)
After a few years we switched to having a full day of inservice training each quarter. About half of each day was shooting. We shot 60 to 100 rnds of handgun each time. With the M870 shotgun, it was always 5 00 buckshot on steel targets, 5 slugs on paper targets and 10 rounds of bird shot, sometimes on clay pigeons and sometimes on steel targets. When we replaced the shotguns with AR-15 pattern rifles, we usually shot 30 to 50 rounds each training session. The off-duty gun course required 30 rounds and you had to qual with any off duty guns once a calendar year.
I myself shoot 250 rounds a month in practice with my duty gun (currently a Glock 22). I occasionally shoot in local USPSA and IDPA matches and try to go to one or two shooting classes a year.
I have .22 conversions for many of my guns and the .22s get used a lot indoors in the winter.
Most of the cops I have worked with over the years NEVER shoot in practice. A few were/are diligent and shoot 50 or 100 rounds in practice before each quarterly training session, but they are in the minority.
Generally we do training with Simunitions FX rounds or Air Soft guns about once a year, but we haven't done any of that in the last several years. We are over-due for active shooter response training.
We got ballistic shields a few years ago, and usually train with them once a year and probably shoot 30 rounds while doing so.
deadcoyote
New member
I just retired a year ago. At that time individual officers did 200 rounds of practice and 50 of qualification every 8 weeks for a total of about 1500 a year (pistol). They only did rifle and shotgun qual once a year running about 150 rounds through each at that time.
At the agency I just left you were prohibited from practicing with duty weapon on personal time, which I thought was silly but most officers just owned an identical gun to practice with on their own time. A couple folks didn’t. There were also the “bad kids” who somehow always called in sick on range day but they were a small group. They’d ride it out as long as they could until range staff would desk them until they qualified.
On the flip side, one local agency we worked with a lot had what I thought was a cool practice of if you wanted to practice off duty, with your own ammo, you could bill up to 4 hours of overtime a month for your range time.
At the agency I just left you were prohibited from practicing with duty weapon on personal time, which I thought was silly but most officers just owned an identical gun to practice with on their own time. A couple folks didn’t. There were also the “bad kids” who somehow always called in sick on range day but they were a small group. They’d ride it out as long as they could until range staff would desk them until they qualified.
On the flip side, one local agency we worked with a lot had what I thought was a cool practice of if you wanted to practice off duty, with your own ammo, you could bill up to 4 hours of overtime a month for your range time.
Highly unusual but not unwelcome at all to see. Obviously your department went well over and above what the state requirements for Peace Officer Firearms Qualifications.
California only requires a single qualification unless you take more than a 3 year break.
https://post.ca.gov/pc-832-arrest-and-firearms-course
https://post.ca.gov/pc-832-arrest--firearms-requalification
Glad to see a Department going above and beyond as well as a community willing to fit the bill to achieve a higher level of proficiency than required by the state.
Kevin Rohrer
New member
1- How many training and Qualification rounds a year do you shoot for and through your agency?
Qual: 25
Dept Trg: 0
2- If you are on a special team such as Sniper/ Swat/ High Risk Apprehension etc do you shoot additional rounds and if so how many training/ qualification/ competition?
Not any longer
3. How often does your agency conduct live firearm training per year?
1
4. If you shoot training rounds such as sims out of your regular duty weapons how much of that do you do on an annual basis?
0
5. What is your round count annually on either your service weapon or similar/ same type weapon on your own time, with your provided ammo?
10k
Qual: 25
Dept Trg: 0
2- If you are on a special team such as Sniper/ Swat/ High Risk Apprehension etc do you shoot additional rounds and if so how many training/ qualification/ competition?
Not any longer
3. How often does your agency conduct live firearm training per year?
1
4. If you shoot training rounds such as sims out of your regular duty weapons how much of that do you do on an annual basis?
0
5. What is your round count annually on either your service weapon or similar/ same type weapon on your own time, with your provided ammo?
10k
Inspected yes, cleaned no. My last issue weapon was an H&K P2000 and I was an agency armorer. How did I clean it? The same way I always cleaned it. Actually, mine was sent in for disposal, also using the pistol for competition I had just over 15,000 rounds of duty 155 grain JHP's (40 S&W) and the pistol had reached its service life, to where the groups were starting to open significantly.
It is a range. Quoting a few outliers does not change that fact.
It is generally the recoil spring assembly that wears out not the barrel. Service contract usually involves the weapons returning at a specific point to higher level maintenance for repair/refurbishment.
http://pistol-training.com/archives/3915
http://pistol-training.com/archives/2668
It is a range....
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In Illinois, it's a 30 round course, once a year. 12 from 3, 12 from 7 and 6 from 15. There is no movement, cover/concealment or night time requirements.
That said, some agencies have stricter agency only requirements.
Me personally, besides the required yearly qualification, I take as many shooting classes as I can. I also shoot on my own as often as I can. I probably shoot around 3k rounds a year on my own. No where near that in formal training.
That said, some agencies have stricter agency only requirements.
Me personally, besides the required yearly qualification, I take as many shooting classes as I can. I also shoot on my own as often as I can. I probably shoot around 3k rounds a year on my own. No where near that in formal training.
Kevin Rohrer
New member
That is a significant expense on an Patrolman's salary. It is sad that Departments spend so little on such an important aspect of protecting both the officer and the public.
Agreed, but:
1. I reload, and the cost is only $13/100-rounds and $11.24 for each range session at an indoor range for a total cost of $37.24 per weekly session.
2. It comes off my Taxes.
Agreed, but:
1. I reload, and the cost is only $13/100-rounds and $11.24 for each range session at an indoor range for a total cost of $37.24 per weekly session.
2. It comes off my Taxes.
I see that as an excuse.
The facts do not bear the conclusion out that a better trained police force does anything other than make the public that much safer.
If the leadership lacks the grit and ability to explain those facts to the public then voters need to replace that leadership.
Not training LEO's has much higher consequences paid in blood for political expediency.
DavidSOG, I do too.
But that doesn't mean it isn't going to be the perspectives from a large portion of the public we serve. Look at all the other crazy logic we as 2nd Amendment supporters have to counter.
I'm not so sure current data does in fact bear that out as it relates specifically to firearm/shoot-no shoot training for law enforcement officers.
If I recall correctly, you are for the most part a military trained individual. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
In my experience and observations as a civilian police officer, extensive officer training in firearms and tactics (sometimes known in the past as "officers survival school") resulted in officers including myself becoming less tolerant to taking risks in threat situations that we would have previously taken due to ignorance or other reasons. Meaning; many individuals walked away from situations wherein the responsible law enforcement response should have been the use of deadly force.
Lot of things intelligent minds try to inform folks that seem to fall on deaf ears regardless of the "leadership, grit, and abilities" the folks doing the informing possess. Come on, you know that. I don't mean to denigrate the public in general but really...
John, I agree with your comment 100%.
Unfortunately, most civilian law enforcement managers/administrators over the last two or three decades seem to prefer to spend public funds on the militarization of their law enforcement agencies. Mostly in the form of buying high tech military equipment from uncle Sam rather than spending money on training their officers.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
The only chief law enforcement officers that are elected in the United States are sheriffs, and in some parts of the country sheriff's offices don't even provide street-level law enforcement, they only provide courtroom security, jail operation, and prisoner trasport.davidsog said:
And in other parts of the country they do provide Law Enforcement as any other agency and it is the County Police that provide the duties you allude too.
What does that have to do with the fact any mayor can fire his Chief Of Police or that all Law Enforcement Department heads are answerable to their elected Government?
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Sounds like many Departments are confusing Officer Survival Tactics and marksmanship/weapon skills. They have a training issue.
A member of the President's 100 is a skilled marksman but not SOTIC qualified nor can they conduct an assaulter's mission.
Just as a soldier wishes to return from a combat tour a LEO wishes to survive to retirement. It is a worthy goal all hope to achieve. Unfortunately the mission sometimes dictates.
Imagine where the world would be if the US Army refused to step onto the Beaches of Normandy because some of our soldiers would be killed.
Proper training is the key and my statement refers to that. Improper Training makes everyone less safe. In fact, I would go so far as to say increased weapon skill opens up options that increase both the public and officers level of safety.
Which brings me to:
LE is a completely different mission from the Military. Unfortunately you are absolutely right in that many LEO cannot separate the two.
To clarify, I was not talking about LEO leadership but rather the elected officials who set LEO policy. While I am sure there are some substandard leadership operating in LEO positions I would think they are more focused on crime fighting and the elected leadership more focused on electorate perceptions as a gross general statement.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
davidsog said:
Previous to the above, you wrote:
Voters can't replace leaders who are not chosen by the voters.
You have since clarified your statement, but your meaning was evidently not clear in the earlier post.