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For Currently Employed LEOs
- Thread starter MTT TL
- Start date
That’s concerning as LEOs are “the line”. I would hope they could easily outshoot most everyone at typical handgun range... (<25 yards)Which is twice what most LE's shoot a year.
Depends on "they" and "everyone". If you mean your average patrol officer against a gun owner that shoots a few times a year probably. If you mean a SWAT or similar team officer against a gun owner, enthusiast or not, most likely. If you mean an average patrol officer against a gun owning enthusiast most likely not. Based on my experience from what I've observed in courses I've taken (and talking to the officers in those courses).That’s concerning as LEOs are “the line”. I would hope they could easily outshoot most everyone at typical handgun range... (<25 yards)
I think there's a mentality developed from Hollywood that most police officers are gun people. That's not always true. The level of interest varies a lot. We see even here, and from officers I've talked to, that those that are truly interested often dip into their own wallets to buy more ammunition and/or training. At the least they have to spend additional time. For an officer that might get through a career having never fired a shot in anger it might be easy to convince yourself that you're fine as is. To be fair, unknown unknowns aren't easy to overcome. A person might not even realize his/her skills are deficient until they train with others with greater skills.
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Don Fischer
New member
When I lived in Montana I had a friend that was on the Highway Patrol. Figured he'd shoot a lot, pretty good shooting buddy. I asked him about it. He hated shooting! The only gun he had was his duty gun and the only time it left his holster was once a year when he had to qualify! Really surprised me. Then again I worked on a base rifle range in the service, USAF. What I saw on there would terrify you. The worst of the bunch were older NCO's, I have no idea how they kept from shooting themselves! Qualifying in the AF was a joke, you could about do it throwing rocks at the target!
Something that always got me was here were people that actually had little use for firearms and it showed. But should the occasion arise where they might have to and they were going to die! Would be the same way in a police dept. Lot of cops never take out a gun but what they should train for is the one time they actually have to. I ran into a cop in NYC years ago. I was in a small store in Harlem and an alarm went off. Two cops walked in the door and let no one out till they found out what was going on. I noticed one cops gun, solid mass of rust. If he had to use it I'm not sure it would work. Obviously he didn't give a hoot about guns. To bad as at some point his life could hinge on that!
In any profession where your required to qualify even just yearly, the people doing it should be serious about using the gun. They may never need it and that's fine, the problem is if for some reason they do need it! Good chance then they die. Our police officer's should be well above average shooter's, in their business their life could depend on it, forget someone else's life. Qualifying once a year or even quarterly is a joke. In the extreme think about an infantry soldier in battle. Really thing it does any good for him not to be all he can with his rifle? I think his life depends on it!
Cops in a good program for training and taking advantage of it, my hat's off to you! Those that don't take advantage of it, good luck, you won't know you really need it until you need it and then it's to late!
Something that always got me was here were people that actually had little use for firearms and it showed. But should the occasion arise where they might have to and they were going to die! Would be the same way in a police dept. Lot of cops never take out a gun but what they should train for is the one time they actually have to. I ran into a cop in NYC years ago. I was in a small store in Harlem and an alarm went off. Two cops walked in the door and let no one out till they found out what was going on. I noticed one cops gun, solid mass of rust. If he had to use it I'm not sure it would work. Obviously he didn't give a hoot about guns. To bad as at some point his life could hinge on that!
In any profession where your required to qualify even just yearly, the people doing it should be serious about using the gun. They may never need it and that's fine, the problem is if for some reason they do need it! Good chance then they die. Our police officer's should be well above average shooter's, in their business their life could depend on it, forget someone else's life. Qualifying once a year or even quarterly is a joke. In the extreme think about an infantry soldier in battle. Really thing it does any good for him not to be all he can with his rifle? I think his life depends on it!
Cops in a good program for training and taking advantage of it, my hat's off to you! Those that don't take advantage of it, good luck, you won't know you really need it until you need it and then it's to late!
Thanks Don, your post illustrates exactly the point I am making.When I lived in Montana I had a friend that was on the Highway Patrol. Figured he'd shoot a lot, pretty good shooting buddy. I asked him about it. He hated shooting! The only gun he had was his duty gun and the only time it left his holster was once a year when he had to qualify! Really surprised me. Then again I worked on a base rifle range in the service, USAF. What I saw on there would terrify you. The worst of the bunch were older NCO's, I have no idea how they kept from shooting themselves! Qualifying in the AF was a joke, you could about do it throwing rocks at the target!
Something that always got me was here were people that actually had little use for firearms and it showed. But should the occasion arise where they might have to and they were going to die! Would be the same way in a police dept. Lot of cops never take out a gun but what they should train for is the one time they actually have to. I ran into a cop in NYC years ago. I was in a small store in Harlem and an alarm went off. Two cops walked in the door and let no one out till they found out what was going on. I noticed one cops gun, solid mass of rust. If he had to use it I'm not sure it would work. Obviously he didn't give a hoot about guns. To bad as at some point his life could hinge on that!
In any profession where your required to qualify even just yearly, the people doing it should be serious about using the gun. They may never need it and that's fine, the problem is if for some reason they do need it! Good chance then they die. Our police officer's should be well above average shooter's, in their business their life could depend on it, forget someone else's life. Qualifying once a year or even quarterly is a joke. In the extreme think about an infantry soldier in battle. Really thing it does any good for him not to be all he can with his rifle? I think his life depends on it!
Cops in a good program for training and taking advantage of it, my hat's off to you! Those that don't take advantage of it, good luck, you won't know you really need it until you need it and then it's to late!
Some snipped.
I would think it would be in the department's best interest to make sure these 'tools' are in good working order..even if the officer doesn't care..
Question then..in Police departments..are 'issued' guns kept by the LEO? Or do they keep them at the department, put them on when they get to work? Are they kept in an armory or in the person's 'locker'? For this essential 'tool' for the LEO, are they inspected, tested by somebody to make sure they work? The above seems like a traffic cop in a car that wouldn't start..I ran into a cop in NYC years ago. I was in a small store in Harlem and an alarm went off. Two cops walked in the door and let no one out till they found out what was going on. I noticed one cops gun, solid mass of rust. If he had to use it I'm not sure it would work. Obviously he didn't give a hoot about guns. To bad as at some point his life could hinge on that!
In any profession where your required to qualify even just yearly, the people doing it should be serious about using the gun. They may never need it and that's fine, the problem is if for some reason they do need it! Good chance then they die. Our police officer's should be well above average shooter's, in their business their life could depend on it, forget someone else's life. Qualifying once a year or even quarterly is a joke. In the extreme think about an infantry soldier in battle. Really thing it does any good for him not to be all he can with his rifle? I think his life depends on it!
I would think it would be in the department's best interest to make sure these 'tools' are in good working order..even if the officer doesn't care..
Not an LEO. All IO know is that a friend who was responsible for private gun club ranges said "dont ever let cops shoot on your range."
He must have had a bad experience w/ some dept(s)?
Few yrs ago wife and I were in our pick up camper at the range. Stayed overnight after Sundays match and planned on touring the aea for a few days in camper.
Fairly early Mon am, knock on the camper door and it was a LEO who advised us that they would start shooting soon. Hadnt heard/noticed several patrol cars had arrived.
Shooting began, I finished breakfast in the camper and then took my coffee out and observed the shooting.
At a cease fire I asked "where are the donuts?" WOW-- one fellow laughed, the 'boss' just looked disgusted at me. The laugher told me later "you asked the wrong question of that officer."
He must have had a bad experience w/ some dept(s)?
Few yrs ago wife and I were in our pick up camper at the range. Stayed overnight after Sundays match and planned on touring the aea for a few days in camper.
Fairly early Mon am, knock on the camper door and it was a LEO who advised us that they would start shooting soon. Hadnt heard/noticed several patrol cars had arrived.
Shooting began, I finished breakfast in the camper and then took my coffee out and observed the shooting.
At a cease fire I asked "where are the donuts?" WOW-- one fellow laughed, the 'boss' just looked disgusted at me. The laugher told me later "you asked the wrong question of that officer."
Last edited:
Steve in PA
New member
Issued firearms are kept with the officer, just like a flashlight or a set of handcuffs. They could be kept in the officer's locker at work........where he will then (hopefully) transition to his off-duty weapon before leaving. Or, some officers take them home with them. All depends.
If you mean a SWAT or similar team officer against a gun owner, enthusiast or not, most likely.
That is pretty funny. I recall one major metropolitan SWAT teams "sniper" was the guy who showed up at the weapon cage when the armorer happened to grab the only optic equipped rifle they had in the rack.
"Sniper" training for most LE departments consisted of the Remington Armorers course. No shooting just the armorers course.
The SWAT team in most departments I have seen is an ego club for the Department good ol'boy click.
That being said, there are some very professional SWAT teams in LE but they are not the norm.
That is pretty funny. I recall one major metropolitan SWAT teams "sniper" was the guy who showed up at the weapon cage when the armorer happened to grab the only optic equipped rifle they had in the rack.
"Sniper" training for most LE departments consisted of the Remington Armorers course. No shooting just the armorers course.
The SWAT team in most departments I have seen is an ego club for the Department good ol'boy click.
That being said, there are some very professional SWAT teams in LE but they are not the norm.
Hence the use of "likely". In my experience the interested SWAT officer has been above the interested enthusiast in skill level. I haven't met disinterested SWAT officers at this point and my experience doesn't match your own, but I'm admittedly one person who has only interacted with X number of departments. YMMV.
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That is pretty funny. I recall one major metropolitan SWAT teams "sniper" was the guy who showed up at the weapon cage when the armorer happened to grab the only optic equipped rifle they had in the rack.
"Sniper" training for most LE departments consisted of the Remington Armorers course. No shooting just the armorers course.
The SWAT team in most departments I have seen is an ego club for the Department good ol'boy click.
That being said, there are some very professional SWAT teams in LE but they are not the norm.
this has been my experience as well.
From my perspective, my state only requires one qualification per year. The qualification course must be with every firearm potentially carried, and a day and night shoot on pistols (night shoot for long guns is not required). A 30 round course is approved (30 day, 30 night), so technically 60 rounds pistol and 30 rounds for the long gun. My agency in addition usually does a combat course or live round shoot house a few times a year. I would say another 100 rounds or so fired during that training. Also there often are open range days for practice, probably every couple of months. Every officer that shows up will get a couple hundred rounds. Very few show up to open range days. The guys often still practice in their off time, it's just more convenient to practice in off time than to travel to the range on open range days that may not fit in their schedule.
I will say that about 1/2 of my agency are past time shooters, and they will get practice in on their off time at least some. I would rate them as formidable if they ever had to use their firearm. Probably 1/4 are what I would classify as skilled shooters. A few of us reload and shoot quite often. Most other agencies I know come close to parity with my agency. 1/2 of the officers aren't really "gun people" in that they don't shoot regularly, but they still know what they're doing with a firearm. My agency requires a minimum firearm qualification that exceeds the State minimum standard. We have given conditional offers to candidates who just could not qualify to our standard and they had to be released.
On this topic I also think it appropriate to note that while some officers may not train to a standard of proficiency that many would deem appropriate here on TFL, they do have an advantage to a degree. Officers that work a rough beat and are often placed in stressful situations have a stress tolerance far higher than the average person. After all they got in 4 or 5 foot chases and a couple of fights over the past month. So while some skilled static shooters may shoot far better than an officer that doesn't practice very often, that officer is far more accustomed to stress and may perform much better in a life or death situation than the skilled static shooter. Note that I am not describing every officer with that statement though. The guys that hang their hat on writing tickets to the morning and evening commuters don't usually face a ton of stress, at least not routinely. Coincidentally those ticket writers in my experience are also often not gun people. Those are the officers that worry me with firearms proficiency.
I will say that about 1/2 of my agency are past time shooters, and they will get practice in on their off time at least some. I would rate them as formidable if they ever had to use their firearm. Probably 1/4 are what I would classify as skilled shooters. A few of us reload and shoot quite often. Most other agencies I know come close to parity with my agency. 1/2 of the officers aren't really "gun people" in that they don't shoot regularly, but they still know what they're doing with a firearm. My agency requires a minimum firearm qualification that exceeds the State minimum standard. We have given conditional offers to candidates who just could not qualify to our standard and they had to be released.
On this topic I also think it appropriate to note that while some officers may not train to a standard of proficiency that many would deem appropriate here on TFL, they do have an advantage to a degree. Officers that work a rough beat and are often placed in stressful situations have a stress tolerance far higher than the average person. After all they got in 4 or 5 foot chases and a couple of fights over the past month. So while some skilled static shooters may shoot far better than an officer that doesn't practice very often, that officer is far more accustomed to stress and may perform much better in a life or death situation than the skilled static shooter. Note that I am not describing every officer with that statement though. The guys that hang their hat on writing tickets to the morning and evening commuters don't usually face a ton of stress, at least not routinely. Coincidentally those ticket writers in my experience are also often not gun people. Those are the officers that worry me with firearms proficiency.
Don Fischer
New member
I know very little actually about LE firearms training. Friend in Montana years ago on the State Patrol that didn't like shooting. Only gun he owned was his service revolver! He told me the only time it's ever out of the holster is at yearly qualifying, which he generally flubbed the first time. I spent eight years in the Air Force, three of those years oversea's. While there I got to work on our support base's rifle range. Generally speaking, if we had to depend on the Air Force to defend us with firearms that don't fly, we're gonna get our butt's kicked. Once a year qualification and, especially higher ranking NCO's, I'm surprised they live through a couple hours at the range, they are normally, terrible with any type firearm. Doesn't surprise me to read the LE agency's are not a lot different. But in their line of work, a firearm can save a life, even their own and still cops that basically can't shoot. They only reason they are a cop is at the time they needed a job I think! Especially in LE I think a huge effort should be put into firearms training, it could save someone's life, maybe their's! Those cops that do take the time and make an effort. If it never save's anyone's life but your own, it's worth the effort! Long as I'm on the prod let me attack something even worse. Over weight cops. It is not reassuring to me to see a grossly overweight cop that most likely lacks the ability to defend himself physically. Unbelievable how many overweight cop's I see out there. The appearance of a cop should reassure everyone in the area!
I recall years ago in New York City I stopped in a small store for something. While I ws there a silent alarm went off. As I went out two NYC cops walked in the door and shoved me back into the store. While waiting to see what was going on, I noticed the firearm of one cop. It was so rusted I doubt it would have fired if he needed it to. Not what I'd call confidence inspiring! To those other cops out there that keep in shape and actually know how to use their guns and care for them, I hope you realize I'm not lumping you in with these other's. Police force's should be run like special force's units! The sight of a police officer should inspire a certain amount of confidence!
I recall years ago in New York City I stopped in a small store for something. While I ws there a silent alarm went off. As I went out two NYC cops walked in the door and shoved me back into the store. While waiting to see what was going on, I noticed the firearm of one cop. It was so rusted I doubt it would have fired if he needed it to. Not what I'd call confidence inspiring! To those other cops out there that keep in shape and actually know how to use their guns and care for them, I hope you realize I'm not lumping you in with these other's. Police force's should be run like special force's units! The sight of a police officer should inspire a certain amount of confidence!
I know very little actually about LE firearms training. Friend in Montana years ago on the State Patrol that didn't like shooting. Only gun he owned was his service revolver! He told me the only time it's ever out of the holster is at yearly qualifying, which he generally flubbed the first time. I spent eight years in the Air Force, three of those years oversea's. While there I got to work on our support base's rifle range. Generally speaking, if we had to depend on the Air Force to defend us with firearms that don't fly, we're gonna get our butt's kicked. Once a year qualification and, especially higher ranking NCO's, I'm surprised they live through a couple hours at the range, they are normally, terrible with any type firearm. Doesn't surprise me to read the LE agency's are not a lot different. But in their line of work, a firearm can save a life, even their own and still cops that basically can't shoot. They only reason they are a cop is at the time they needed a job I think! Especially in LE I think a huge effort should be put into firearms training, it could save someone's life, maybe their's! Those cops that do take the time and make an effort. If it never save's anyone's life but your own, it's worth the effort! Long as I'm on the prod let me attack something even worse. Over weight cops. It is not reassuring to me to see a grossly overweight cop that most likely lacks the ability to defend himself physically. Unbelievable how many overweight cop's I see out there. The appearance of a cop should reassure everyone in the area!
I recall years ago in New York City I stopped in a small store for something. While I ws there a silent alarm went off. As I went out two NYC cops walked in the door and shoved me back into the store. While waiting to see what was going on, I noticed the firearm of one cop. It was so rusted I doubt it would have fired if he needed it to. Not what I'd call confidence inspiring! To those other cops out there that keep in shape and actually know how to use their guns and care for them, I hope you realize I'm not lumping you in with these other's. Police force's should be run like special force's units! The sight of a police officer should inspire a certain amount of confidence!
the majority of figuring stuff out, solving crimes, setting up the bad guys getting the goods needed for a search warrant can be done by an overweight old lady chain smoker; and that's because it takes brains not brawn. street cops are the ones you might be referring to as the need to stay fit in your view.
Don Fischer
New member
the majority of figuring stuff out, solving crimes, setting up the bad guys getting the goods needed for a search warrant can be done by an overweight old lady chain smoker; and that's because it takes brains not brawn. street cops are the ones you might be referring to as the need to stay fit in your view.
I think you'd notice in the military even the desk clerks are required to stay n shape. Reason for that. Never know when they'll have to pick up a gun and shoot back! I would not have a word to say about the over weight officer's had I never seen them on the street in the first place. Our LE agency's should inspire confidence when we see them.
If you're expecting law enforcement to be on par with special operations, you're both being a bit idealistic and unrealistic imo. Be prepared to be disappointed.I know very little actually about LE firearms training. Friend in Montana years ago on the State Patrol that didn't like shooting. Only gun he owned was his service revolver! He told me the only time it's ever out of the holster is at yearly qualifying, which he generally flubbed the first time. I spent eight years in the Air Force, three of those years oversea's. While there I got to work on our support base's rifle range. Generally speaking, if we had to depend on the Air Force to defend us with firearms that don't fly, we're gonna get our butt's kicked. Once a year qualification and, especially higher ranking NCO's, I'm surprised they live through a couple hours at the range, they are normally, terrible with any type firearm. Doesn't surprise me to read the LE agency's are not a lot different. But in their line of work, a firearm can save a life, even their own and still cops that basically can't shoot. They only reason they are a cop is at the time they needed a job I think! Especially in LE I think a huge effort should be put into firearms training, it could save someone's life, maybe their's! Those cops that do take the time and make an effort. If it never save's anyone's life but your own, it's worth the effort! Long as I'm on the prod let me attack something even worse. Over weight cops. It is not reassuring to me to see a grossly overweight cop that most likely lacks the ability to defend himself physically. Unbelievable how many overweight cop's I see out there. The appearance of a cop should reassure everyone in the area!
I recall years ago in New York City I stopped in a small store for something. While I ws there a silent alarm went off. As I went out two NYC cops walked in the door and shoved me back into the store. While waiting to see what was going on, I noticed the firearm of one cop. It was so rusted I doubt it would have fired if he needed it to. Not what I'd call confidence inspiring! To those other cops out there that keep in shape and actually know how to use their guns and care for them, I hope you realize I'm not lumping you in with these other's. Police force's should be run like special force's units! The sight of a police officer should inspire a certain amount of confidence!
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Question then..in Police departments..are 'issued' guns kept by the LEO? Or do they keep them at the department, put them on when they get to work? Are they kept in an armory or in the person's 'locker'? For this essential 'tool' for the LEO, are they inspected, tested by somebody to make sure they work? The above seems like a traffic cop in a car that wouldn't start..
I would think it would be in the department's best interest to make sure these 'tools' are in good working order..even if the officer doesn't care..
The 2 departments/agencies I worked for our issue gun was essentially yours except when you left you turned it in and could not modify it besides grips.
When you 'turned it in', was it inspected, cleaned by somebody? If you had to turn it in when you left, how did you clean it?The 2 departments/agencies I worked for our issue gun was essentially yours except when you left you turned it in and could not modify it besides grips.