Firearm Stopping Power…a different perspective.
- Thread starter IanS
- Start date
" Gettysburg " was on the History Channel this week. This was the most bloody battle that has ever been fought on US soil. This is The Civil War. The rifle used was the Springfield Musket. It fired a 58 caliber Minie Ball.
It was a large, heavy, slow moving bullet made of soft lead. When a leg or arm was hit the bone was shattered, and not much left to saw off. This is a devasating round.
There is important knowlege to be learned for our day. It was a stopper and a killer.
It was a large, heavy, slow moving bullet made of soft lead. When a leg or arm was hit the bone was shattered, and not much left to saw off. This is a devasating round.
There is important knowlege to be learned for our day. It was a stopper and a killer.
Glad this post came out, there seams to be some internet myth that a 380 auto can not kill someone, and everyone wants a 45acp or 44mag/10mm handgun to stop their threat.
It's all about placement shots. Like one guy said, I rather have 1,000 rounds of 22lr than 100 rounds of 45 acp.
It's all about placement shots. Like one guy said, I rather have 1,000 rounds of 22lr than 100 rounds of 45 acp.overkill0084
New member
So I need to buy a .32, because it has the best percentage of one shot stops? Or perhaps a .22, for easier concealment.
I haven't taken a statistics class, but AFAIK, raw data is not a definitive study. It creates more questions than answers.
I haven't taken a statistics class, but AFAIK, raw data is not a definitive study. It creates more questions than answers.
I fell into that trap. I thought that if you shot someone with 380 Auto you were sort of hoping to scare them away, or hope they gave up due to the pain.
In 1993, Lance Corporal Rayna Ross was stalked for months by her violent ex-boyfriend- Anthony Goree. At 3 a.m., June 23, Goree pried open the sliding glass door to her apartment. Once inside, he kicked down her bedroom door and attacked her with a bayonette. Shielding her daughter, Ross fired two shots from a .380-caliber semi-automatic handgun, killing Goree. (She'd bought the gun a few days earlier because of Goree's threats.)
On the other hand, a Jacksonville police officer took a .45 ACP point blank to the chin, not only did he live, he returned fire and killed his assailant.
I think the data is accumulating, and I think meaningful conclusions can someday be drawn from the data.
I think it's unfortunate that so far, the people who make conclusions or postulate theories have no background in science, math, or statistics. And they don't go get help. I mean - Elifritz could have gone to a university and partnered with the math department or the science department to create a real study - done in accordance with accepted scientific method, - but he didn't.
So basically the data is still sitting there until someone comes along who knows how to examine it and make valid and arguably credible conclusions.
I heard about that. I know a few cops have died around where I live, one took a 22lr from a ways away in the side of the vest.
struck his heart from the side.People seam to think a gun of low caliber will not kill. For me, I take a .25 with 100 rounds vs a 7 round magazine of 45acp. For self defence. Mind you it must be a name brand not some cheap gun that will fall apart on me.
I don't want to start a caliber war or anything but I think the size can matter for a vital arterie. I used to watch those Dr, ER shows, and once in a while you get that gun shot person. The bullet was like millimeters away from a main arterie, and they where struck with like a 9mm. So a 45 would have probably killed him.
Being able to immediately stop a threat and hitting a major artery that can lead to bleeding out and eventual death are two different things.
What too many people believe they will get when they go to a larger or faster caliber is better "instant results" or incapacitation, which is much more elusive. A 250 lbs perp may be stopped with a single .22 because he is afraid of dying but a 110 lbs perp with multiple hits to COM with a .45 may not stop his attack if he doesn't care about pain/death and is willing to take you with him. There are things like shots to the CNS that will cause predictable results. Anything outside of that there are so many variables like the state of the mind of the perp or simply missing vital parts of the anatomy that is difficult to measure or predict.
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Amin Parker
New member
IanS,
Its not entirely by choice i use ball ammo. American hollow point ammo is so expensive that to fill up my mags will cost more than a new gun. There are so few available that i will have to have different brands and shapes. It will almost rule out the possibility of enough practice rounds to check for reliability.
In 9mm i have been using the same round for many years in all my pistols. I know it well. I know its limitations and challenges associated with ball ammo and try and compensate.
It was because of my concerns of the effectiveness of ball that i started paying attention to shootings.
The only way to get someone to stop attacking you is to keep shooting at him.
Its not entirely by choice i use ball ammo. American hollow point ammo is so expensive that to fill up my mags will cost more than a new gun. There are so few available that i will have to have different brands and shapes. It will almost rule out the possibility of enough practice rounds to check for reliability.
In 9mm i have been using the same round for many years in all my pistols. I know it well. I know its limitations and challenges associated with ball ammo and try and compensate.
It was because of my concerns of the effectiveness of ball that i started paying attention to shootings.
The only way to get someone to stop attacking you is to keep shooting at him.
secret_agent_man
Moderator
Notice the .32 and .380 calibers had slightly better incapacitation performance over some of the larger calibers. Most likely the .32 and .380's were primarily ball ammo, and the larger calibers were most likely to be hollow points.
This doesn't jive with with the reported 38 per cent average increase in stops that showed up when Super Vel hollow points were adopted by some U.S. police departments.
But it may well reflect a distinct advantage in being up close and personal when you shoot somebody. These small stealth guns tend to allow for that, and also for optimum shot placement. This last point may be the most important factor for incapacitation, but has been left out of the analysis.
I also wish Mr. Ellifritz had taken into account whether the shootings involved hollow points or ball ammo, and in particular the percentage of expanded, partially expanded and unexpanded hollow points in the study.
Still, taken in toto, the study is informative.
This doesn't jive with with the reported 38 per cent average increase in stops that showed up when Super Vel hollow points were adopted by some U.S. police departments.
But it may well reflect a distinct advantage in being up close and personal when you shoot somebody. These small stealth guns tend to allow for that, and also for optimum shot placement. This last point may be the most important factor for incapacitation, but has been left out of the analysis.
I also wish Mr. Ellifritz had taken into account whether the shootings involved hollow points or ball ammo, and in particular the percentage of expanded, partially expanded and unexpanded hollow points in the study.
Still, taken in toto, the study is informative.
Johannes_Paulsen
New member
So a .32ACP is basically like using a phaser. Got it . 
Amin Parker
New member
Ian i understand your point. I just thought ill mention it.
I do believe there is some truth to what he says.
I do believe there is some truth to what he says.
Spats McGee
Administrator
Shooting is like kissing: It's all about location, location, location.
Missionary
New member
Greetings Historicly hand held weapons used by the military had the right perspective... big holes are always better.. Hence the caliber .60 muzzle loaders held sway for many years. Granted the velocity was not much over 750 fps at 10 feet but those large slugs tended to slow down the progress of even the most determined foe. When I got into the Army (1971) and eventually Armor and old sargent shared with us a true happenstance he witnessed. One combatant fired his 9mm twice and the other fired his caliber .45 Colt once. Both combatans were struck in the torso. The old sarge looked at us and said " Troop, trust the caliber.45". So over the years I figured it is wise to practice seriously with the largest caliber handgun I can shoot accurately all the time. For me those are the 41 magnum and the caliber .45 ACP.
The aforementioned study I find interesting but will still choose to ere with a bigger hole and harder thump.
Mike in Peru
The aforementioned study I find interesting but will still choose to ere with a bigger hole and harder thump.
Mike in Peru
This is exactly the type of thing I take with a heavy dose of salt. You have individuals who saw a specific event (I'll take their word for it) with very little detail about what exactly happened but they extrapolate broad generalizations from it. Today there's better reliable data (I'm not just talking about what I posted) and better documented shootings using latest ballistic and forensic evidence to rely on stories passed on from person to person and generation to generation.
Yeah, I'm with IanS.. one anecdotal story about two different incidents with two different guys both hit somewhere in the torso doesn't actually settle anything about caliber effectiveness... Just means two guys apparently died from handgun bullets.
Its funny to me when people will base their perception about anything; guns, cars, people, whatever, about similar stories they hear from someone.
This trait of human perception is what makes guns stores money.
Its funny to me when people will base their perception about anything; guns, cars, people, whatever, about similar stories they hear from someone.
This trait of human perception is what makes guns stores money.
secret_agent_man
Moderator
This problem with ball ammunition is quite adequately addressed by dropping down in caliber and velocity.
Given the option of shooting an attacker center mass from a distance with three hollow point rounds of 230 ACP, or one contact shot to the liver, heart or spine with 32 caliber hardball, I'll take the 32, and not worry about overpenetration. Or the perp.
Winterhawk56
New member
WOW, very interesting! I have carried a .357, 40 S&W and .45 but always remembered the 1992 study about the 125JHP .357 being the top. This sure changes things in my mind! GREAT INFORMATION!
From G. Ellifritz
I agree with that.
I'm not so certain that the data, nor the method, of the report support the general conclusions that Mr. Ellifritz reaches. Which I believe is fortunate as the data and the method are flawed. It is actually important to realize that, meaning that the information and method are flawed, and not to bypass it. Mostly because if you don't get that you may buy anything no matter the sales pitch, and there is a difference between science and bugaboo. Too much of the latter with Ellifritz.
Ellifritz seems to think that caliber and bullet construction do not matter too much, at least not as much as bullet placement. This is true and it's unfortunate that he felt the need to manufacture bugaboo to support an opinion shared by many and supported by a good deal of actual experience.
For over a century now the approach that has worked has been to select the best handgun one can get and match it to the task. To choose the most powerful round that you can for that gun and to make sure you can handle it and shoot it accurately and at speed. Select a good bullet, matched to the task and use that.
tipoc
I agree with that.
I'm not so certain that the data, nor the method, of the report support the general conclusions that Mr. Ellifritz reaches. Which I believe is fortunate as the data and the method are flawed. It is actually important to realize that, meaning that the information and method are flawed, and not to bypass it. Mostly because if you don't get that you may buy anything no matter the sales pitch, and there is a difference between science and bugaboo. Too much of the latter with Ellifritz.
Ellifritz seems to think that caliber and bullet construction do not matter too much, at least not as much as bullet placement. This is true and it's unfortunate that he felt the need to manufacture bugaboo to support an opinion shared by many and supported by a good deal of actual experience.
For over a century now the approach that has worked has been to select the best handgun one can get and match it to the task. To choose the most powerful round that you can for that gun and to make sure you can handle it and shoot it accurately and at speed. Select a good bullet, matched to the task and use that.
tipoc