Finally! Price gouging laws used. In TX no less

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I think it stopped being a free market with the onset of the very first regulatory laws regarding sales and commerce.
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Excellent point. I am a believer in capitalism, and such I believe markets should be regulated as little as practicable to achieve normal supply/demand pricing and prevent fraud. At the same time, truly “free” markets would have zero regulations regarding counterfeit merchandise, fraud in equity pricing evaluations, and a number of other issues that anyone would agree is criminal conduct. That’s not to say I’m on board with this lawsuit, I’m just correcting the “free market” mantra that supposes our current markets are truly and totally free. Regulation exists, and rightly so.

As to charging high prices for ammo currently, hey I’m all for supply/demand pricing.

Imagine how 'good for shooters' it would be if they put a $5/50 price limit on a box of 9MM.

We'd all be rolling in cheap ammo. I wonder why 'they' don't?


Larry
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That’s a pipe dream. Demand is literally taking everything an ammo manufacturer produces right now at whatever price it can get. Manufacturers aren’t dying to invest the capital in expanding manufacturing because, like every time before, this boom/bust ammo run will end and they’ll have a hard time giving ammo away.

There’s literally been no excuse for people to not already be rolling in cheap 9mm, unless they’re like my son who is 26, just got out of the USMC, and just started his gun/ammo addic... I mean collection.
 
5whiskey said:
Excellent point. I am a believer in capitalism, and such I believe markets should be regulated as little as practicable to achieve normal supply/demand pricing and prevent fraud. At the same time, truly “free” markets would have zero regulations regarding counterfeit merchandise, fraud in equity pricing evaluations, and a number of other issues that anyone would agree is criminal conduct. That’s not to say I’m on board with this lawsuit, I’m just correcting the “free market” mantra that supposes our current markets are truly and totally free. Regulation exists, and rightly so.

As to charging high prices for ammo currently, hey I’m all for supply/demand pricing.



That’s a pipe dream. Demand is literally taking everything an ammo manufacturer produces right now at whatever price it can get. Manufacturers aren’t dying to invest the capital in expanding manufacturing because, like every time before, this boom/bust ammo run will end and they’ll have a hard time giving ammo away.

There’s literally been no excuse for people to not already be rolling in cheap 9mm, unless they’re like my son who is 26, just got out of the USMC, and just started his gun/ammo addic... I mean collection.
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I think you missed the sarcasm, 5Whiskey. I was pointing out the error in thinking government controlled pricing actually works.

Larry
 
CTD's practice of advertising one price on its website and then substantially increasing the price during checkout, if true, is clearly a deceptive practice that warrants action by the Texas AG. The price gouging complaint is a closer question. It is my understanding that Texas prohibits price gouging during a declared disaster on some specific items and on "necessities." Ammo is not one of the listed items, so Texas is evidently considering ammo a "necessity." But what does that mean? While most would agree that food, water, and many pharmaceuticals are "necessities," would most of us here consider ammo a "necessity?"

A statute that is too vague for a reasonable person to understand what it prohibits, even on an as-applied basis, is unconstitutional and unenforceable. By "on an as-applied basis," I mean that some things may be understood to be governed by a statute, but other things may not. So the statute could be enforced on some things, but not on others. Therefore, if a reasonable person would not think ammo to be a necessity, then the statute cannot be enforced in regard to ammo sales.

As to the "free market," I doubt that very many people want a truly free market without any regulation. For example, a truly free market means consumers could decide which butchers to patronize based on price and whose meat kills the fewest people. Food inspectors, after all, are simply regulators of the market.

BTW, I won't do business with CTD because of their history of rate hikes.
 
BTW, I won't do business with CTD because of their history of rate hikes.
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Nor will I. Haven’t for nearly a decade. And this is where capitalism should shine. Consumers get to vote with their dollars. Unfortunately it depends on the education and decision making skills of the consumer.
 
Imagine how 'good for shooters' it would be if they put a $5/50 price limit on a box of 9MM.

We'd all be rolling in cheap ammo. I wonder why 'they' don't?
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No, that would not be good at all. Manufacturers would simply refuse to make any ammo at that price, and we would be totally out of ammo. Remember, in a free economy, supply and demand go hand in hand. High demand/low supply? Price goes up. Low demand/high supply? Price goes down. It is also understood that in either case the manufacturers would respond in some way to changes in demand, either increasing output or reducing output to try to stay in business. It's not all about you and your unwillingness to pay a higher price. Nobody forces you to buy ammo to go play with your guns. Likewise, nobody can force manufacturers to make stuff.

In any case, prices for ammo from manufacturers is very stable. Prices from retailers is not.
 
I have ordered from both SGammo and Target Sports USA. They had what I needed at a higher price and I willingly paid. Was it gouging? No, because no one forced me to spend my money with them. The reality is that if any of the smaller retailers had kept their prices low I’d have never been able to acquire ammo because everyone would’ve bought it up. Higher prices help stem the flow of panic buying. I don’t have to like it but it was my choice to buy or not to buy
 
"What gouging? Did they hold a gun to your head and force you to buy something from them at an inflated price? if no, then there was no gouging. If you do not like their business model, do not do business with them."(FITASC)

Exactly!
 
"What gouging? Did they hold a gun to your head and force you to buy something from them at an inflated price? if no, then there was no gouging. If you do not like their business model, do not do business with them."(FITASC)

Exactly!
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While you maybe should not do business with them, there is nothing in the definition of price gouging that states the threat of lethal force. Price gouging occurs when SELLER sets the price above what is reasonable or fair. A person isn't price gouged until making a purchase at the higher price.

The illegality is determined by law. Texas is currently in a state of disaster.
https://www.nga.org/state-covid-19-emergency-orders/ Texas has laws in place to prevent price gouging during such a declaration. https://www.texasattorneygeneral.go...gency-scams/how-spot-and-report-price-gouging

If you don't think that guns and ammo are necessity items, you might want to reconsider your understanding of the 2nd Amendment. I would certainly consider being able to procure items necessary for defense to be necessity item as much as I would being able to get chainsaws, shovels, and generators after a hurricane.
 
It isn't gouging if someone WILLINGLY pays the ASKING price. In Supply Demand environments, the buyer sets the price; if something is too high, no one buys and the seller is forced to reduce his asking price; if the price is too low, the seller realizes he can raise his price and folks will still buy his product. It doesn't matter if it is guns, butter, gas or plywood in Florida's hurricane zone.
 
In my opinion, there is a distinct difference between #1, setting unreasonably high prices for gas / food (or guns & ammo), after a hurricane or natural disaster, and possibly widespread looting (when there are imminent or immediate life or death emergency situations) and #2, the online or in person purchase of ammunition due to panic buying based upon speculation or shortages during relatively peaceful times.
The first would be price gouging, as you have little choice but to pay the asking price. The second... just high prices... you have the choice to shop elsewhere.
 
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Double Naught Spy said:
While you maybe should not do business with them, there is nothing in the definition of price gouging that states the threat of lethal force. Price gouging occurs when SELLER sets the price above what is reasonable or fair. A person isn't price gouged until making a purchase at the higher price.

The illegality is determined by law. Texas is currently in a state of disaster.
https://www.nga.org/state-covid-19-emergency-orders/ Texas has laws in place to prevent price gouging during such a declaration. https://www.texasattorneygeneral.go...gency-scams/how-spot-and-report-price-gouging

If you don't think that guns and ammo are necessity items, you might want to reconsider your understanding of the 2nd Amendment. I would certainly consider being able to procure items necessary for defense to be necessity item as much as I would being able to get chainsaws, shovels, and generators after a hurricane.
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And who decides what is 'reasonable or fair'?

Oh, right, the government. The ones who declared the 'crisis'.

So the government gets the power to decide if it's a 'crisis' situation, and then gets to decide what is 'reasonable or fair'.

What could possibly go wrong?

Larry
 
If you are a consumer, you are suppose to act like a consumer.

This nonsense of protector of an imaginary "free market" doesn't even exist in the world of the "free market" economics. Adams said YOU are suppose to protect YOURSELF with YOUR money. Price gouging has been American law for longer than anyone here is alive.

To my point, UPS just dropped off a case of Federal 9mm, from Federal's website for cheaper than any Federal sold on gun.deals or ammoseek. Today. Yes. It's out of stock right now, but a version of 9mm is up most days.

The manufacturer is selling for less than retailers. The manufacture always sells for higher than it's retailers or retail stores wouldn't exist. This is the whole basis of our economy for direct sales by manufacturers vs retail.

So--we know retailers are hosing the consumer.

I for one hope that SGammo, CTD, and Target Sport USA get hosed for 3x mark up on what Cabela's sells.
 
In my opinion, there is a distinct difference between #1, setting unreasonably high prices for gas / food (or guns & ammo), after a hurricane or natural disaster, and possibly widespread looting (when there are imminent or immediate life or death emergency situations) and #2, the online or in person purchase of ammunition due to panic buying based upon speculation or shortages during relatively peaceful times.
The first would be price gouging, as you have little choice but to pay the asking price. The second... just high prices... you have the choice to shop elsewhere.
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I do not agree; I live in hurricane land and have also lived in tornado and wildfire country as well. Anyone with half a brain in hurricane prone areas knows that when the weather gurus start talking, that is the time to gas up, lay in water, supplies, plywood or whatever and NOT the afternoon before landfall or the day after. If you are that stupid to be that unprepared, you deserve to pay the price. (NOT saying you personally)
 
I agree 100%... but suppose there are relatives, friends or neighbors who are too stupid to stock up beforehand (Sheep) and may be in dire need, or a week later after the event and prepared people may want to resupply, top off, etc. In a situation like this, price gouging laws should be enforced, as it isn't right. That was my point. I should have clarified.

Winter is here; I have firewood, propane, kerosene (multiple sources of heat) and gas for the generator. Plenty of food too.
Ice storms, Nor'easter's, etc., don't bother me, I'm going to have heat, electricity, hot water and a TV. And enough .22's to deal with a Zombie squirrel apocalypse! :D
 
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5whiskey said:
Nor will I. Haven’t for nearly a decade. And this is where capitalism should shine. Consumers get to vote with their dollars. Unfortunately it depends on the education and decision making skills of the consumer.
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Very true


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If the buyer and seller agree, is a "fair" price. Products OR labor!
Let's wait a few more months before we get into social-capitalism okay.
 
CTD has changed a lot since they started.
I’m not impressed with them and their name is far from accurate.
But I’d prefer if people just don’t do business with someone they don’t want to buy from, vs legal action from an AG who is at best ineffective.
 
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