I think standard FBI issue from the late 80s to 1998 was the Sig Sauer P226 9mm.
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/DGAAAFED.html
FBI Miami shootout: Better Handgun Caliber or better Tactics
- Thread starter Doug.38PR
- Start date
- Status
I think standard FBI issue from the late 80s to 1998 was the Sig Sauer P226 9mm.
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/DGAAAFED.html
David Armstrong
Moderator
again, you have to think in the context of the times. The FBI didn't (and still doesn't, BTW) notify the local PD every time they are going out on surveillance or to serve a warrant or any of a number of other things. Law Enforcement is not a perfect world, and while hindsight is 20/20 real life, then and now, says you don't always do things the best way. Of course, even if they had told the local PD they were going out looking for the BGs, what would the local PD have done about it? Heck, lots of times you can't even get the local PD and SO to coordinate stuff!
At least one of the agents was carrying a 9mm round. He fired the round that hit the perp in the side. The bullet stopped just short of the heart. While it was deemed a fatal wound, the perp wasn't incapacitated immediately. That was what started the whole "9mm is too weak" kick that the FBI started on...
One thing this shootout did for me is dispel the overpenetration myth for me. Under penetration got those agents killed. Namely from 9mm and .38+Ps. Seriously read the long version. Luckily for me personally original Norma ballistics are readilly available. Its not a magic bullet but best out there if one askes me. 
Edward429451
Moderator
It's been a while since I read anything on this incident, but IIRC, Mattix (? the one with the Mini) was amping on Meth? Can anyone confirm this one way or the other?
back then the 9mm used was REAL light. 115 gr I think. Later I think they upgraded to 124 or maybe even 147.
The .38 Spl. +P FBI load on the other hand is 158 gr and probably would have hit the heart (not sure if that's what was in their revolvers though)
I won't load anything less than that in my .38 Spl. What few times I do carry a 9mm I carry as heavy a load as I can get. I think 147 gr Hydrashoks is the best.
I do not agree. Lots of things got those agents killed. Bad luck. Bad tactics. Overconfidence. Taking a handgun to a rifle fight.
One near-sighted agent lost his glasses in the initial collision. One agent took his handgun out of the holster and placed it between the seat bottom and seatback prior to the collision. In the collision, the handgun flew out of the seat into the footwell; he was reduced to using his J-frame backup. 5-shot J-frame against a trained, determined assailant with a Mini-14 and you've got yourself one big problem.
All handgun rounds have weak. IMHO, focusing on the handgun round misses the more important issues.
The original poster expects too much
The FBI agents are not trained to be combat shooters. Forget the rah rah stuff protrayed in the officially sanctioned movies. They are also not beat officers. They are largely annonymous civil servants. Until recently, the specialties were catching draft dodgers and breaking up interstate car theft rings. They excelled at that.
Can you shoot in low light, on the run, while starting and continuing to stand or going to the ground? Do you personally practice shooting your firearm from point blank range to 100 yards. I do. The FBI agent doesn't. It doesn't make me better, just tells you that the exposure isn't there.
I sit in the back of a black and white. A decision is made to accelerate and confront an unknown situation in Lot A of the LAX parking lot. I jam my pistol in the gap beween the seat back and the seat because "I know". Why do you expect that an FBI agent would "know" that the car is going to go through gyrations and he might lose the gun on the seat next to him. He hasn't had the exposure.
If you took the ranges in the actual gun fight and shot for the base of the throat instead of center mass, if you were trained to shoot an exposed arm or leg or hand instead of center mass, then you would be ok whether you were shooting a .38 special, 10mm or .45acp. round.
I am not knocking the agents who were in the fight. You are only as good as your training.
A few years ago, I visited with a friend who was in charge of an FBI unit. I asked him to demonstrate how he could draw his unloaded Glock with his weak hand and engage in a simulation that his strong side arm was injured. He couldn't figure it out. Ditto for how to rack an 870 with an arm shot and disabled. If you don't have the exposure in training, it is too late in the field to learn. Brave guys, poor training. For those few reading this posting, ask yourselves how you could handle racking an 870 or drawing a Glock with the weak hand. Then understand, that the FBI agent does NOT learn this in training.
The FBI agents are not trained to be combat shooters. Forget the rah rah stuff protrayed in the officially sanctioned movies. They are also not beat officers. They are largely annonymous civil servants. Until recently, the specialties were catching draft dodgers and breaking up interstate car theft rings. They excelled at that.
Can you shoot in low light, on the run, while starting and continuing to stand or going to the ground? Do you personally practice shooting your firearm from point blank range to 100 yards. I do. The FBI agent doesn't. It doesn't make me better, just tells you that the exposure isn't there.
I sit in the back of a black and white. A decision is made to accelerate and confront an unknown situation in Lot A of the LAX parking lot. I jam my pistol in the gap beween the seat back and the seat because "I know". Why do you expect that an FBI agent would "know" that the car is going to go through gyrations and he might lose the gun on the seat next to him. He hasn't had the exposure.
If you took the ranges in the actual gun fight and shot for the base of the throat instead of center mass, if you were trained to shoot an exposed arm or leg or hand instead of center mass, then you would be ok whether you were shooting a .38 special, 10mm or .45acp. round.
I am not knocking the agents who were in the fight. You are only as good as your training.
A few years ago, I visited with a friend who was in charge of an FBI unit. I asked him to demonstrate how he could draw his unloaded Glock with his weak hand and engage in a simulation that his strong side arm was injured. He couldn't figure it out. Ditto for how to rack an 870 with an arm shot and disabled. If you don't have the exposure in training, it is too late in the field to learn. Brave guys, poor training. For those few reading this posting, ask yourselves how you could handle racking an 870 or drawing a Glock with the weak hand. Then understand, that the FBI agent does NOT learn this in training.
Smokin Joe
Moderator
oo oo oo I know.
ask yourselves how you could handle racking an 870 or drawing a Glock with the weak hand
the 870, you hold the pump and shake the gun up and down..
as for the glock, from my shoulder holster Id just use the other hand and undo the snap and pull it out and spin it around.
if it is on the duty holser with triple rentention like I have, oh it'll take a whole while.... also IWb at 4o, man thats quite a reach..
ask yourselves how you could handle racking an 870 or drawing a Glock with the weak hand
the 870, you hold the pump and shake the gun up and down..
as for the glock, from my shoulder holster Id just use the other hand and undo the snap and pull it out and spin it around.
if it is on the duty holser with triple rentention like I have, oh it'll take a whole while.... also IWb at 4
o, man thats quite a reach..David Armstrong
Moderator
And yet Agent Morales did just that. These guys were well trained. At least two were on the local FBI version of a SWAT team, and agents at the time got a fair amount of training in comparison to others in LE. But again (broken record time) you have to keep all this in the context of the times. The officers were as well-trained as most in LE at the time, and that training was/is sufficient for most situations. They hit that once in a lifetime exception situation.
Denny Hansen
Staff Emeritus
For the record, I think the agents involved did nothing short of a phenomenal job.
Jerry Dove got a center hit on Platt in a fraction of a second, from a distance of 30 feet while Platt was sliding across the hood of a car! Mcneill got two good hits to Mattix’ face and neck. Orrantia and Risner got hits on a moving target from a distance of almost 100 feet. Mireles got hits with the use of only one arm. All of this with the agents shooting from bright light into a dimly lit area and not on one-dimensional paper targets but on subjects that were shooting back!
Monday morning quarterback this all you want, but ask yourself truthfully if you could have done better in the real world; not from an easy chair in front of a keyboard.
Denny
Jerry Dove got a center hit on Platt in a fraction of a second, from a distance of 30 feet while Platt was sliding across the hood of a car! Mcneill got two good hits to Mattix’ face and neck. Orrantia and Risner got hits on a moving target from a distance of almost 100 feet. Mireles got hits with the use of only one arm. All of this with the agents shooting from bright light into a dimly lit area and not on one-dimensional paper targets but on subjects that were shooting back!
Monday morning quarterback this all you want, but ask yourself truthfully if you could have done better in the real world; not from an easy chair in front of a keyboard.
Denny
Smokin Joe
Moderator
Always be prepared is the boy scout saying... They knew suspects were armed and dangerous...
Mr. Hansen
What you say is true. THAT IS PHENOMENAL. Those men in that immediate situation after the trash hit the fan handled themselves well with what they had. (they did come out on top afterall) I certainly won't say I could have done better.
But that isn't the point of this thread. After the shooting, the first thing the experts said "they need a better handgun" (10mm or .40S&W). The point of this thread is planning. What could these men (or more to the point the supervisor of these men) have done to better plan for this or avoid what did happen? They knew these men were cold blooded heavily armed murderers. They went into a long gun fight with handguns. They didn't cooperate or even notify the local police of what they were doing. Hence the title of this thread, "Better Handgun Caliber or better Tactics."
Haven't read all the post so maybe I missed it: but IIRC one of the agents emptied his weapon and shot up his reloads, had to go to the car trunk for more ammo. THEN he thought "front sight", stopped BG with head shot and also admitted that he'd WAY miscalculated the range, which shouldn't be a big deal under 50yds, IMHO.
BOb
BOb
Denny Hansen
Staff Emeritus
Doug,
Denny works for me. Mr. Hansen was my dad.
Part of the title of this thread pertains to tactics, and that's what a lot of people (some who have apparently not researched the incident much) have talked about.
In regards to a better handgun caliber:
We need to keep in mind that the bad guys were driving a vintage Monte Carlo, and almost three decades ago cars were not the cheap sheet metal found in automobiles currently. By modern standards that Monte Carlo was a tank. No handgun round can be expected to get through glass and steel and reliably reach a target inside a vehicle. I have my doubts that the .223 and 9mm rounds out of ARs and MP5s carried by other agents that day, though not at scene of the incident, would have fared much better.
What could they have done differently? IMO very little. The agents were running a rolling surveilance when "made" by Platt and Mattix. The bad guys actions forced the agents to take action at that time for fear of letting them get into a more heavily poplulated area where the chance of innocent bystanders getting injured or possiblly ending up in hostage situation. In short, Platt and Mattix forced the agents hand, and the agents responded as good as they could under less than ideal conditions.
Denny
Denny works for me. Mr. Hansen was my dad.
Part of the title of this thread pertains to tactics, and that's what a lot of people (some who have apparently not researched the incident much) have talked about.
In regards to a better handgun caliber:
We need to keep in mind that the bad guys were driving a vintage Monte Carlo, and almost three decades ago cars were not the cheap sheet metal found in automobiles currently. By modern standards that Monte Carlo was a tank. No handgun round can be expected to get through glass and steel and reliably reach a target inside a vehicle. I have my doubts that the .223 and 9mm rounds out of ARs and MP5s carried by other agents that day, though not at scene of the incident, would have fared much better.
What could they have done differently? IMO very little. The agents were running a rolling surveilance when "made" by Platt and Mattix. The bad guys actions forced the agents to take action at that time for fear of letting them get into a more heavily poplulated area where the chance of innocent bystanders getting injured or possiblly ending up in hostage situation. In short, Platt and Mattix forced the agents hand, and the agents responded as good as they could under less than ideal conditions.
Denny
I think people are too fixated on the tool, rather then the art of using it. A great photographer can make beautiful images with a simple camera while an amateur makes bad ones with the most advanced system. Its the operator, not the tool. This thread is looking for answers in places they don't exist. BTW, Hi Denny.
- Status