Which is exactly why I refuse to buy a 40 short and weak. I call it a pansy gun. If an agent can't handle the equipment they need to be put in a position where they don't have to. Most can't handle a 10 or a 45 because they won't spend enough range time to perfect it. They should find another job or commit themselves to spending time on the range. A 10mm doesn't kick that hard. Going to a 40 short and weak defeats the reason they chose to up the power in the first place.
FBI Miami shootout: Better Handgun Caliber or better Tactics
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Which is exactly why I refuse to buy a 40 short and weak. I call it a pansy gun. If an agent can't handle the equipment they need to be put in a position where they don't have to. Most can't handle a 10 or a 45 because they won't spend enough range time to perfect it. They should find another job or commit themselves to spending time on the range. A 10mm doesn't kick that hard. Going to a 40 short and weak defeats the reason they chose to up the power in the first place.
Since the goon who did the most shooting was using a rifle (Ruger mini-14 .223) body armor wouldn't have done much good anyway (not that they shouldn't have been wearing it...but then they were trying to be inconspicuous which also explains why they weren't wearing any kind of visible ID on their clothing.)
The inventory on Wikipedia of the incident says there was only one shotgun used by the agents. Somebody else in here said that the other cars did have shotguns in them, so why weren't they out and being used when the agents pounced on the goons?
IIRC they kept most of the long guns in the trunk, completely out of reach. Though I could be wrong.
Platt could have easily killed ALL of the FBI agents, however he was more interested in getting away after neutralizing, but not killing, all the immediate threats. Had he "known" he was dead anyway, he would have probably just gone around killing everyone before he finaly died.
David Armstrong
Moderator
The agents boxed the vehicle in trying to stop it from escaping after they had been ID'd by the bad guys. No ramming per se, IIRC, but there was some contact.
Pretty standard for the FBI at that time. Body armor for most feds (and a number of street cops) was something you put on when you were headed out for trouble, not something you wore all the time.
Because the agents hadn't intended to pounce on the goons. The FBI wasn't ready for a shootout, and hadn't planned on a shootout. They were out doing surveillance, with the idea that they would follow the BGs home, then get a team in to take them down. That was fairly standard procedure. Just didn't work out this time. French's book, BTW, is generally considered the best source of what happened during the actual gunfight, but there is some dispute over the events leading up to it.
Mannlicher
New member
groan. Another attribution to wikipedia.
Tennessee Gentleman
New member
What I learned from the W. French Anderson report
Which I have and have read is that basically "if you can still think and move, then you can still fight; only when your brain or heart stops, or if you choose to give up, does your ability to fight back cease." Thoughout the report Dr. Anderson uses the term "if the will commands" to refer to the amount of punishment a human body can take and still keep going. These bad guys took a lot of well placed hits that would have had the rest of us lying on the ground waiting for help. I think the message for us is: if you are in a fight, don't give up. Also, having more firepower is good but not final either. Read some Medal of Honor citations about soldiers riddled with rifle fire able to still take out the enemy before they died. Ironically if those agents had "known" that both bad guys were "dead men walking" they could have concievably backed off and let them drive a bit down the road where they would have shortly died but that is real Monday Morning QBing. Brave guys those agents.
Which I have and have read is that basically "if you can still think and move, then you can still fight; only when your brain or heart stops, or if you choose to give up, does your ability to fight back cease." Thoughout the report Dr. Anderson uses the term "if the will commands" to refer to the amount of punishment a human body can take and still keep going. These bad guys took a lot of well placed hits that would have had the rest of us lying on the ground waiting for help. I think the message for us is: if you are in a fight, don't give up. Also, having more firepower is good but not final either. Read some Medal of Honor citations about soldiers riddled with rifle fire able to still take out the enemy before they died. Ironically if those agents had "known" that both bad guys were "dead men walking" they could have concievably backed off and let them drive a bit down the road where they would have shortly died but that is real Monday Morning QBing. Brave guys those agents.
David Armstrong
Moderator
I assume you meant "why not" radio. Simple. The FBI had no radio contact with the locals, IIRC. You have to remember this in the context of the time. Communication was not anywhere near the capabilities we take for granted to day, nor was the tactical awareness we tend to preach. The tactics were poor in hindsight, but looked at in the context of what was known to them at the time, what they anticipated at the time, and given the time, the agents performed pretty much as one would expect.
yes I did mean "why not" thank you for realizing that. I apologize for the error.
Well, one of the questions of the original post is "why didn't they inform the local police of what they were doing to begin with?" This caused all sorts of problems that could have been avoided by cooperating with local authorities. You just pointed out another of those problems.
Well, one of the questions of the original post is "why didn't they inform the local police of what they were doing to begin with?" This caused all sorts of problems that could have been avoided by cooperating with local authorities. You just pointed out another of those problems.
Stretchman
Inactive
I think the reason that they ended up having to stop them was because they saw the weapon. That was why they had to initiate the stop.
tanksoldier
New member
They were armed with revolvers because that was the FBI issue weapon at the time. They were NOT , however, armed ONLY with revolvers. One of the suspects was shot with a shotgun at least once. The agent with the shoptgun was shot in the arm IIRC and had trouble cyling the slide. Also, the best FBI marksman on the team had his glasses destroyed rendering him virtually useless. Another was holding this weapon between the seat and his leg. In the TC that initiated the encounter the weapon fell to the floor and he spent most of the fight trying to find it. Finally, both suspects were shot multiple times but simply failed to go down.
It should also be noted that the agents planned this encounter without notifying the local PD or enlisting their assistance as backup.
IMO the calibur or type of handgun carried by the agents had the LEAST to do with their problems out of any factor involved.
It should also be noted that the agents planned this encounter without notifying the local PD or enlisting their assistance as backup.
IMO the calibur or type of handgun carried by the agents had the LEAST to do with their problems out of any factor involved.
Just like any other good cop(cops), they did the best they could with what they had. None had the intention to go and get outshot, hurt or killed. Hindsight is always 20/20. They responded to a report of the suspects in an area, and had to go with what they had, no time to suit up in shining armor and rpgs. i would have been pleased/proud to been a part of that group. Gunfights may go well in matches, but when the lead is flying, its a different ballgame. I'm amazed at what monday morning armchair quarterbacks can come up with that have never worn a gun as part of their job of cop/deputy/trooper/agent, etc. They were all instantly initiated into the fraternity of GUNFIGHTER, not "gun wearer". My hat is off to them. God bless our cops, and those in military service for the United States of America. FM12, Cop, 30 years proud & counting, US NAVY submarine veteran, 4 patrols (SSBN), US Army(reserves) M.P., three years.
FAL-schutter
New member
AR15FAN said:
As to why, probably because this incidente keeps getting brought up as the example why the 9x19mm is supposedly an inadequate combat pistol round. The counterpoint, that the procedures of the day and the luck of the agents in question also proved inadequate, is not made for the purpose of slamming the agents as it is to point out that such a conclusion rests on oversimplification, and that even if every single one of those FBI agents had been packing .45 ACPs (or those who were carrying .357 magnums had actually loaded them with .357 magnum rounds, rather than .38 Spl +P), there's no reason to assume, all other things being equal, that the situation would have been resolved without loss of LEO life (especially in the case of SA Manauzzi; it doesn't matter what caliber you're packing if the weapon is rendered unusable because you dropped it).
FBI shootout
The FBI agents involved in that shootout were not supposed to engage. THey were tailing the bad guys to build evidence, not to arrest them that day. I believe the senior agent decided to "take them down" that day. The agents had kevlar vests, MP 5s and shotguns in their trunk. They went in without heavy weapons, or a defined plan. One of the agents actually LOST his 9mm handgun when it fell out of the car. I don't want to denigrate the proffresionalism or bravery of the agents, but they should not blame their screw up on ammunition that hit the target, penetrated as deep as designed and expanded as designed. IMO the .40 is the non-answer to the FBI's mistake. Supposedly, after problems were found with the 10mm the FBI were using, they were quietly issued 9mm pistols.
The FBI agents involved in that shootout were not supposed to engage. THey were tailing the bad guys to build evidence, not to arrest them that day. I believe the senior agent decided to "take them down" that day. The agents had kevlar vests, MP 5s and shotguns in their trunk. They went in without heavy weapons, or a defined plan. One of the agents actually LOST his 9mm handgun when it fell out of the car. I don't want to denigrate the proffresionalism or bravery of the agents, but they should not blame their screw up on ammunition that hit the target, penetrated as deep as designed and expanded as designed. IMO the .40 is the non-answer to the FBI's mistake. Supposedly, after problems were found with the 10mm the FBI were using, they were quietly issued 9mm pistols.
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