FBI Ammo Test....

[mavracer]

Yet tissues immediately surrounding the wound track, skin and subcutaneous tissues, were undamaged?

no, the tissue in and around the wound track had signifigant damage.no bone damage.bullet went through the back muscle and it severed the spinal cord yet missed the large artery near it (or at least didn't rupture it) and came to rest just under the skin on the far side.
the membrain on the inside of the chest cavity had no perforation therefore the bullet had no direct contact with the lungs and the lungs were outside the permanent wound channel.
hopefully that clears it up for you.

The fact that lung tissue is less dense (gas filled) than other tissues means temporary cavity is smaller in diameter in lung tissue.

however they are filled with tiny capillarys which are easy to damage.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

mavracer writes:

no, the tissue in and around the wound track had signifigant damage.no bone damage.bullet went through the back muscle and it severed the spinal cord yet missed the large artery near it (or at least didn't rupture it) and came to rest just under the skin on the far side.
the membrain on the inside of the chest cavity had no perforation therefore the bullet had no direct contact with the lungs and the lungs were outside the permanent wound channel.
hopefully that clears it up for you.

There’s a lot of muscle tissue in the area you describe and its possible that the TC, provided ideal location, can injure lung tissue. However I have reason to believe the TC wound trauma to lung tissue was not as severe as you describe.

however they are filled with tiny capillarys which are easy to damage.

All soft tissues contain with capillaries. If they are crushed or stretched then haematoma (blood leakage – bruising) can result.

 

[mavracer]

However I have reason to believe the TC wound trauma to lung tissue was not as severe as you describe.

Of course you do it's called human instinct you'd rather call me a liar than admit your wrong.I'm ok with that.I know the truth you see I was there I heard the pig girgiling and gasping I saw the blood on it's nose and in its mouth.I also ran my hand inside the chest cavity looking for the hole.
because we too couldn't belive the amount of damage to the lungs with no bullet hole.

All soft tissues contain with capillaries. If they are crushed or stretched then haematoma (blood leakage – bruising) can result.

are you aware of the actual function of the lungs.I'm sure you are they re oxygenate the blood.They have a lot of blood flow, more than any other organs with the exception of the heart and liver.also when the lungs have hematomas and fill with blood not only does it cause blood loss it reduces the ability to oxygenate.so not only is said subject bleeding to death it is suffocating too.

 

[Webleymkv]

Originally posted by Shawn Dodson

Fackler describes lung tissue as very resilient and able to withstand temporary cavity. The fact that lung tissue is less dense (gas filled) than other tissues means temporary cavity is smaller in diameter in lung tissue.

Lung tissue is extremely vascular as the capillaries there pick up oxygen for the rest of the body. As the bruised area around a bullet wound demonstrates, temporary cavitation can and does rupture capillaries. Given the extremely large number of capillaries present in living lung tissue, this is one of the areas that temporary cavitation can do the most damage, the effects of which have been pointed out by mavracer.

Nerve tissue is also very resilient and resists damage from temporary cavitation fairly well.

Depends on the nervous tissue. Certain tissues in the central nervous system such as pia and arachnoid mater (layers of the menenges around the brain which extend down the spinal cord) are quite fragile and very easily damaged. Also, as you noted, the brain itself is quite easily damaged.

Also, temporary cavitation can cause immense damage in a shot through or near the heart. Rupturing blood vessels inside the pericardium can cause a cardiac tamponode which, without immediate medical attention, is almost certainly fatal. The fluid displacement caused by temporary cavitation through a blood-filled ventricle is likely to severely damage heart valves thusly rendering the heart inoperative and causing extremely rapid incapacitation and death.

 

[Apone]

APONE,
Sorry for the childish comment.didn't mean to side track the discussion.

Mav, really cool of you. Sorry, I beat on the details incessantly and for my response.

Mav, seriously, I am not a scientist, ME, MD, or physicist, so when I see a report by a renowned ME/MD validated by the FBI I tend to believe it. I honestly didn’t know there were differing opinions on the subject and was surprised to learn that not everyone agrees with Fackler and Patrick. This has been a most intriguing debate and I seriously doubt that, if it cannot be settled by men of substantial learining, it will be settled on TFL. I anxiously await the next evolution in the debate.

 

[Apone]

Of course you do it's called human instinct you'd rather call me a liar than admit you're wrong.

Okay, c'mon, that was funny!

 

[mavracer]

I anxiously await the next evolution in the debate.

I'm sure the debate will never end and until they figure out a way to predict weather the bullet will hit a rib or go between them.we'll continue to guess.
Got into a conversation at work today about this subject and had asked one of my friends about bow shot deer(I figure broadheads eliminate Temporary cavity) anyway he said he'd never had one DRT some dropped due to spine shot but took some time. this was kinda as I guessed it would be.
Now the poser question is another guy (who is neither a hunter or shooter and yes I'm working on that) said somthing about breath cycles.which got me to thinking I would imagine there would be a signifigant difference in damage weather the lungs were full at impact or exhaled.
Just another reason it's a guessing game.Also thats the problem with assembly line work lots of think time.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Webleymkv writes:

Lung tissue is extremely vascular as the capillaries there pick up oxygen for the rest of the body. As the bruised area around a bullet wound demonstrates, temporary cavitation can and does rupture capillaries. Given the extremely large number of capillaries present in living lung tissue, this is one of the areas that temporary cavitation can do the most damage, the effects of which have been pointed out by mavracer.

ALL tissue is extremely vascular - each cell must have access to fresh blood.

I invite you to present valid and verifiable information that supports your claim.

Depends on the nervous tissue. Certain tissues in the central nervous system such as pia and arachnoid mater (layers of the menenges around the brain which extend down the spinal cord) are quite fragile and very easily damaged. Also, as you noted, the brain itself is quite easily damaged.

I used the term "nerve tissues" for a reason. The majority of nerves in the torso are autonomic (regulate organ function) and are unrelated to motor function.

mavracer writes:

Of course you do it's called human instinct you'd rather call me a liar than admit your wrong.I'm ok with that.I know the truth you see I was there I heard the pig girgiling and gasping I saw the blood on it's nose and in its mouth.I also ran my hand inside the chest cavity looking for the hole.
because we too couldn't belive the amount of damage to the lungs with no bullet hole.

We're talking a handgun bullet propelled at ~1200 fps, correct? I expect such a bullet to produce a temporary cavity between 3-4 inches in diameter. Somehow this temporary cavity is supposed to transmit through ribs, intercostal space and thoracic membrane to produce enormous lung damage? The physics don't support your claim. Sorry.

 

[Webleymkv]

ALL tissue is extremely vascular - each cell must have access to fresh blood.

I invite you to present valid and verifiable information that supports your claim.

Anatomy and Physiology Third Edition by Elaine Marieb and Katja Hoehn pages 740 and 741 have a detailed description, diagram, and micrograph of lung tissue. Lung tissue is divided into alveoli which are small pockets around which smooth muscle, elastic fibers, and capillaries are wrapped. The lungs are arranged this way in order to achieve the maximum surface area to facilitate gas exchange. Few other bodily tissue are this vascular. Each individual cell in the body does not have its own capillary to supply it, rather the majority of them rely on diffusion from a nearby capillary. As a hemotoma demonstrates, rupturing capillaries is possible with no penetrating trauma whatsoever and as examination of gunshot wounds reveals, blood vessels that were not actually in contact with the bullet are still ruptured. A shot through an area such as the lungs with a very high concentration of small, easily-ruptured blood vessels will rupture more of them than a shot through an area with fewer blood vessels. More ruptured vessels=more blood loss=more damage.

I used the term "nerve tissues" for a reason. The majority of nerves in the torso are autonomic (regulate organ function) and are unrelated to motor function.

Wouldn't disrupting the function of a vital organ such as the heart also cause incapacitation? No one part of the human body is independent of the rest.

 

[mavracer]

Somehow this temporary cavity is supposed to transmit through ribs, intercostal space and thoracic membrane to produce enormous lung damage?

Obviously you need to take an anatomy class so you can understand.
I'm out.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Webleymkv writes:

Anatomy and Physiology Third Edition by Elaine Marieb and Katja Hoehn pages 740 and 741 have a detailed description, diagram, and micrograph of lung tissue. Lung tissue is divided into alveoli which are small pockets around which smooth muscle, elastic fibers, and capillaries are wrapped. The lungs are arranged this way in order to achieve the maximum surface area to facilitate gas exchange. Few other bodily tissue are this vascular. Each individual cell in the body does not have its own capillary to supply it, rather the majority of them rely on diffusion from a nearby capillary. As a hemotoma demonstrates, rupturing capillaries is possible with no penetrating trauma whatsoever and as examination of gunshot wounds reveals, blood vessels that were not actually in contact with the bullet are still ruptured. A shot through an area such as the lungs with a very high concentration of small, easily-ruptured blood vessels will rupture more of them than a shot through an area with fewer blood vessels. More ruptured vessels=more blood loss=more damage.

You're missing my point. I'm seeking your reference that describes ballistic injury to lung tissue - specifically showing that "delicate lung tissue" is especially vulnerable to temporary cavity disruption. All literature I'm familiar with describes lung tissue (which includes capillaries) as extremely resilient. Lungs are the torso's mechanical shock absorber.

Wouldn't disrupting the function of a vital organ such as the heart also cause incapacitation? No one part of the human body is independent of the rest.

You lost me here. Are you implying that transient disruption of nerve function can affect the heart? If yes, then I agree.

mavracer writes:

Obviously you need to take an anatomy class so you can understand.

Believe it or not, I studied pig anatomy before I posted in attempt to understand your description of the wound. If I'm incorrect then I invite you to explain it to me. Really!

You never identified the cartridge involved.

 

[Webleymkv]

You're missing my point. I'm seeking your reference that describes ballistic injury to lung tissue - specifically showing that "delicate lung tissue" is especially vulnerable to temporary cavity disruption. All literature I'm familiar with describes lung tissue (which includes capillaries) as extremely resilient. Lungs are the torso's mechanical shock absorber.

http://radiology.uchc.edu/eAtlas/RESP/691.htm

http://www.trauma.org/index.php/main/image/128/

And you're missing mine. We know that temporary cavitation ruptures cappilaries. As a matter of fact, you admitted as much when you said

All soft tissues contain with capillaries. If they are crushed or stretched then haematoma (blood leakage – bruising) can result.

My reference also shows that the lungs have a lot of cappilaries. Thusly logic dictates that a shot through the lungs will rupture more cappilaries than a shot through another part of the body. More cappilaries ruptured=more blood loss=more damage. While temporary cavitation may be reduced, it doesn't go away and a shot through the lungs will rupture a lot of cappilaries simply because there are a lot of them there. Now it's your turn, please provide me with documentation of the lungs resiliency.

Quote:
Wouldn't disrupting the function of a vital organ such as the heart also cause incapacitation? No one part of the human body is independent of the rest.

You lost me here. Are you implying that transient disruption of nerve function can affect the heart? If yes, then I agree.

You said

Temporary cavity can, however, temporarily disrupt synapses (nerve transmission connections) and cause them to stop working or to perform less efficiently.

then you said

The majority of nerves in the torso are autonomic (regulate organ function) and are unrelated to motor function.

My point is that regardless of whether a nerve controls motor function or not, causing it to stop working can still cause incapacitation.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

My reference also shows that the lungs have a lot of cappilaries. Thusly logic dictates that a shot through the lungs will rupture more cappilaries than a shot through another part of the body.

To the best of my knowledge our discussion has centered on your previous statement:

2.We can all also agree that certain tissues in the body (liver, nervous tissue, lung tissue, etc.) are delicate enough to be damaged by a temporary stretch cavities that are achieved by handguns but that other tissues are not. Yes?

I respectfully disagree. All findings I'm aware of do not support your claims that lung tissue and "nervous" tissue (in general) are especially vulnerable to damage by temporary cavitation. If you have valid and verifiable findings showing otherwise I invite you to present them.

My point is that regardless of whether a nerve controls motor function or not, causing it to stop working can still cause incapacitation.

While autonomic dysfunction (liver failure, kidney failure, visceral failure, etc.) may eventually lead to incapacitation it will not produce rapid incapacitation. The goal is to stop motor function by disrupting the CNS, either by direct physical trauma or blood loss.

 

[Webleymkv]

I respectfully disagree. All findings I'm aware of do not support your claims that lung tissue and "nervous" tissue (in general) are especially vulnerable to damage by temporary cavitation. If you have valid and verifiable findings showing otherwise I invite you to present them.

I invite you to look at the links in my previous post and also present valid and verifiable documentation of your own.

 

[supergas452M]

 

[IMTHDUKE]

Now, would John Wayne engage in such tech talk about gettin the job done Or Buford Pusser? Just take your best shot with your best your carrying and shoot their nuts off

 

[mavracer]

Believe it or not, I studied pig anatomy before I posted in attempt to understand your description of the wound. If I'm incorrect then I invite you to explain it to me. Really!

OK I'll try one more time.The bullet entered the left side of the pig went in between the ribs under backbone and above the thorasic membrain.there was a a lot of damage and hemoraging in back muscle.to the best of my recolection the membrain could not have been displaced more than 2".
when I shot the pig fell behind a log and it took 20-30 sec for me to get to it and by that time it was gasping it's last breath(I'm sure part of his rapid demise was all the squeeling he did)

You never identified the cartridge involved.

It was a 44 magnum,maybe this helps some.to be sure I don't think Temporary cavity is much of a factor below 500ft.lbs. and none below 300ft.lbs. but it can and has happen at handgun velocitys.
Dr. Courtney has shown that it definatly has some affect at pistol velocitys.
ther is a wealth of information on his sight
http://www.ballisticstestinggroup.org/ballistics.htm