protectedbyglock
New member
Interesting...
I wish the .45 was listed on here, too. Just to see.
I wonder why they didn't use it, too?
I wish the .45 was listed on here, too. Just to see.
I wonder why they didn't use it, too?
FBI Ammo Test....
- Thread starter IMTHDUKE
- Start date
45_Shooter
New member
I happen to agree with you; the original loading of the .357 (158gr. going 1550 fps from an 8" barrel) seems quite rifle-like, and it's known that the .357 can perform similarly to a .30-30 out of the same length carbine barrel. I don't believe that a 2.5" snub is going to get up to speed enough; but many officers were packing 5-6" guns, and combined with a lighter bullet I see no reason why we wouldn't see some damage due to the temporary cavity under the right circumstances.
I also have a theory that the tremendous flash and boom of the round in closed quarters didn't hurt the psychological side of things either. A .45 is loud indoors, but it's nothing compared to a hot 125 gr. .357.
Sounds good, but it's simply not true.
Even in handguns temporary cavity CAN wound. The non-elastic organs in the body such as the liver & spleen can definitely be wounded by temporary stretch. Since kinetic energy and temporary cavity are directly related, this fact also means the first sentence is incorrect.
It would be correct to say that at typical service pistol energy levels temporary cavity is not a reliable wounding mechanism, but to go farther and say that it "does not wound" is demonstrably false.
All I'm saying is that the temporary cavity can cause shock to the system and play a part in stopping the fight where pistols are concerned. The problem is, at most pistol velocities, it isn't something you can always count on. Unlike rifle stretch cavities that create permanent and severe damage. I believe that the violent expansion from the higher velocitiy of some pistol bullets increase the effect. .357 Mag., .357 SIG, and even some .45 +P 185 gr.
Even so, those signals to the brain that cause incapacitation may get blocked when alcohol, drugs, or even adrenaline are involved.
I think you could say that the rifle "temporary cavity" (stretch) is actually permanent in it's tissue destruction, even though it wasn't touched by the bullet. The pistol stretch cavity is temporary, but can still cause some trauma that, in some cases, contributes to incapacitation.
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Shawn Dodson
Moderator
Nnobby45 writes:
The only thing .357 Magnum had "going for it" in the days of yore was velocity, which not only produced reliable expansion of SJHP bullets, but bulk deformation of semi-jacketed soft nose bullets as well. .357 Magnum didn't need a hollowpoint to expand reliably in many cases.
Modern bullet designs are robustly engineered and expand reliably.
I invite you to visit http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000964 and point out the substantial differences between the wound profiles for .357 125gr JHP and .40 and .45. Instead what you'll observe is very little difference in "stretch cavity" despite 400+ fps difference between .45 and .357 SIG.
The only thing .357 Magnum had "going for it" in the days of yore was velocity, which not only produced reliable expansion of SJHP bullets, but bulk deformation of semi-jacketed soft nose bullets as well. .357 Magnum didn't need a hollowpoint to expand reliably in many cases.
Modern bullet designs are robustly engineered and expand reliably.
TacticalDefense1911
New member
The temporary cavity has as much to do with bullet design as it does with velocity. A rapidly expanding, early energy transfer is what is needed for a large stretch cavity. Now I didnt get to see those pictures on tacticalforums because I'm not registered but I'm going to bet that they were tactical bullets. Tactical bullets (i.e. bonded bullets) are designed to have controlled expansion; controlled expansion spreads the energy transfer out across the penetration instead of rapidly transfering the energy of the bullet which is what happens with a high velocity standard JHP bullet that is not designed for controlled expansion.
There has to be a trade off to achieve desired penetration depths. A standard JHP bullet is not as consistent in its penetration depth as a bonded tactical bullet, nor is it as good at defeating tactical barriers as a bonded bullet. Because of this, and the fact that most service calibers in CCW platforms do not achieve high enough velocities to reliably produce damaging effects from stretch cavities is the reason why bullets that are consistent and can create a large permanent cavity are usually the best choice for self defense. The .357 sig, .357 magnum, and some light weight 9mm +P & +P+ loads can start achieving results from temporary stretch cavity damage but the results are not as consistent as rifle calibers.
Greetings,
First off, great thread. Although the information states that lighter, higher velocity loads are inferior to slower, heavier loads I don't see any hardcore facts to back that up. Penetration is definately the most important factor aside from shot placement, but I have a hard time beleiving that higher velocity is meaningless. It just doesn't add up. I've read quite a few accounts of police departments seeing better results when they switched to a lighter, faster load. For instance the .40 caliber 180gr. to the faster 165gr. or the 9mm 147gr. to the faster 127gr.. I've also read a article about police being extremely happy with performance after switching to the .357 Sig.
I think the faster loads tend to penetrate certain barriers better too.
I'm not against slow, heavy bullets. Like I said, I just have a hard time beleiving a faster bullet that rapidly expells it's energy in the target while still penetrating 12" doesn't make for better performance. Remember that saying, "a pistol is used to fight your way to your rifle"? Yes rifles are more accurate, but I think theres more to it than that.
take care
First off, great thread. Although the information states that lighter, higher velocity loads are inferior to slower, heavier loads I don't see any hardcore facts to back that up. Penetration is definately the most important factor aside from shot placement, but I have a hard time beleiving that higher velocity is meaningless. It just doesn't add up. I've read quite a few accounts of police departments seeing better results when they switched to a lighter, faster load. For instance the .40 caliber 180gr. to the faster 165gr. or the 9mm 147gr. to the faster 127gr.. I've also read a article about police being extremely happy with performance after switching to the .357 Sig.
I think the faster loads tend to penetrate certain barriers better too.
I'm not against slow, heavy bullets. Like I said, I just have a hard time beleiving a faster bullet that rapidly expells it's energy in the target while still penetrating 12" doesn't make for better performance. Remember that saying, "a pistol is used to fight your way to your rifle"? Yes rifles are more accurate, but I think theres more to it than that.
take care
I suggest that people take the time to read the referenced areas on tactical forums. Doc Roberts is a recognized authority on the subject. His work backs up Dr. Fackler's work that showed conclusively that temporary stretch cavities had little effect at pistol velocities. Rifle velocities are different animals which have been discussed in other postings.
so you've got one guy who has stated his opinion as fact and another that swears to it.
I've seen a bullet, I cronographed the load at 1250fps, that never entered the chest cavity of a 250lb boar (bullet stayed in the back muscle) do enough damage to the lungs to cause the pigs death.
BTW when you hunt with veterinarians field dressing turn into autopsys
John, if you read the report in its entirity the SA that composed it sites that inelastic tissue like liver and brain as the exceptions, as the liver does not have the elasticity of other organs and the brain tissue is fragile.
Those dismissing the information contained in this report would do well to apply a little perspective, recognizing their own positions (in most cases lay persons with no formal scientific or ballistics training) relative to the position of the federal agent that compiled the report and the resources that were available to him in his work. I saw a couple of remarks about deer hunting and “magic” velocity numbers regarding rifle rounds, and yes there is a velocity threshold at which fragmentation occurs, I believe at 2000 fps, listed in the report. I suggest those doubting read the report in its entirety as it will give you better perspective of the context of certain terms as this caused some confusion throughout the thread.
http://www.seark.net/~jlove/handgun_wounding.htm
I have read both HWFE and Fackler's books also have read the reviews of their work.
here's an abstract
and a link to the full review
http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701268.pdf
Now before you get in a huff please check my post #16
I still think penatration is more important.
here's an abstract
and a link to the full review
http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701268.pdf
Now before you get in a huff please check my post #16
I still think penatration is more important.
Do you realize that Dr Fackler was a combat surgeon, the head of the army's would ballistics laboratory, and is recognized world wide as an authority on the effect of bullets on the human body? I think that his experience and scientific research trumps boar hunting experiences. And since he pretty much wrote the book on the subject of the effects of wound ballistics who would you like him to turn to for training? I think the fact that the DOJ and DOD turn to Doc Roberts and not hunters or long debunked off duty cops speaks volumes.
yes and he also claimed he could tell by how the bullets hit the bodys which position the selector switch was in.
and I told you not to get in a huff I'm in the penatration camp.
Just dont try to tell me temporary cavity does not wound and bullets don't fragment below 2000fps.
Here is the quote from the report: "Fragmentation, on the other
hand, does not reliably occur in handgun wounds due to
the relatively low velocities of handgun bullets.
Fragmentation occurs reliably in high velocity
projectile wounds (impact velocity in excess of 2000
feet per second) inflicted by soft or hollow point
bullets."
He never states that fragmentation is impossible below 2000 fps, but I should have prefaced fragmentation with the modifier "reliably" in post 34. I too would hold Fackler’s word in higher regard than someone whose resume is hunting with veterinarians.
Interesting link, Mav. Has Fackler responded to the criticisms of his work?
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Throughout HWFE Patrick says temporary cavity exists.yet in his summation he says it doesn't.he says fragmentation can occur even at hand gun velocities then picks a arbitrary number where he says it does occur.yet I show text from a gel test where heavy fragmentation occurs at less than 1200fps.here is the link to that test.http://www.brassfetcher.com/Federal 240 grain Hydra-Shok.html
and you say I'm rejecting reality.well her's some more reality for you.
HEY POT YOUR BLACK TOO.