FBI Ammo Test....

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IMTHDUKE

New member
I would be interested to know what you guys think of this FBI ammo test....seems to indicate that there is very little advantage of a fast bullet over big in SD ammo. What's your take on this?

Here's a FBI testing of Winchester Ranger Talons and an explanation of what the testing means:

All testing is done in accordance with the standardized FBI protocols. The bare gel test involves 10% ballistic gel calibrated to mimic human muscle tissue. The other tests involve placing various materials in front of the bare gel to demonstrate what it would be like to shoot someone through such materials. After the bullet punches through these barriers it may become damaged /deformed or plugged with material(wood/cloth) which will reduce its expansion capabilities. When a hollow point expands it acts like a parachute reducing penetration. If it is damaged or plugged it may not expand very well which results in deeper penetration with less expansion. The FBI has done continued testing of ammunition for two decades and they take into account the results of actual street shootings and how that ammunition behaved against an actual person and/or barrier. With that knowledge, they still recommend that you use ammunition that achieves a minimum penetration depth of 12” in bare gel. They also conclude that good penetration is always more important than expansion, but as long as 12” of penetration can be maintained every bit of expansion improves terminal damage effects.

FBI Test Protocol:
Bare Gelatin = covered with T-shirt, Shot at 10ft
Denim = 4 layers shot at 10ft
Heavy Clothing = shot at 10ft
Steel = 2 pieces of 20 gauge, shot at 10ft
Wallboard = 2 pieces of 1/2" gypsum board, shot at 10ft
Plywood = 1 piece of 3/4" AA fir plywood, shot at 10ft
Automobile Glass = 1 piece of 1/4" laminated safety glass set at a 45 degree angle with an offset of 15 degrees, shot at 10ft

.380 95gr(1000fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 7.65”/.65”
Through Denim: 7.95”/.64”
Through Heavy Cloth: 7.85”/.64”
Through Wallboard: 15”/.36”
Through Plywood: 15.5”/.36”
Through Steel: 9.3”/.36”
Through Auto Glass: 4.5”/NA

9mm+P 124gr(1180fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 12.2”/.70”
Through Denim: 13.9”/.67”
Through Heavy Cloth: 13.3”/.68”
Through Wallboard: 14”/.66”
Through Plywood: 13.1”/.65”
Through Steel: 18.9”/.40”
Through Auto Glass: 10.6”/.48”

9mm+P+ 127gr(1250fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 12.3”/.64”
Through Denim: 12.2”/.68”
Through Heavy Cloth: 12.2”/.68”
Through Wallboard: 12.1”/.66”
Through Plywood: 12”/.68”
Through Steel: 20.5”/.40”
Through Auto Glass: 9.4”/.48”

9mm 147gr(990fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 13.9”/.65”
Through Denim: 14.5”/.66”
Through Heavy Cloth: 14”/.66”
Through Wallboard: 15”/.67”
Through Plywood: 14.8”/.62”
Through Steel: 17”/.45”
Through Auto Glass: 10.8”/.52”

.357sig 125gr(1350fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 10.9”/.63”
Through Denim: 12.1”/.66”
Through Heavy Cloth: 10.7”/.69”
Through Wallboard: 15.4”/.48”
Through Plywood: 12.2”/.66”
Through Steel: 23.4”/.41”
Through Auto Glass: 10.3”/.49”

.40S&W 165gr(1140fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 12.7”/.61”
Through Denim: 13.2”/.70”
Through Heavy Cloth: 14.3”/.68”
Through Wallboard: 11.4”/.69”
Through Plywood: 13.1”/.71”
Through Steel: 20.4”/.48”
Through Auto Glass: 11.3”/.61”

.40S&W 180gr(990fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 13.8”/.60”
Through Denim: 14.3”/.70”
Through Heavy Cloth: 13.4”/.64”
Through Wallboard: 13.1”/.66”
Through Plywood: 15.1”/.64”
Through Steel: 17”/.52”
Through Auto Glass: 12”/.61”


When it comes to what damage a bullet actually inflicts onto something, there is no measurable advantage in using the .357sig other than greater penetration through steel. The heavier bullet weights in 9mm actually perform better than the .357sig and the .40S&W is an overall improvement on the 9mm and .357sig.

When it comes to street shootings, here's an explaination of how the parent of the .357sig(the .357magnum) gained the "manstopper" reputation......and most importantly, why it is no longer relevant today:

"The .357magnum earned its “manstopper” reputation in the early days of hollow point design which was from about the late 1960s to the late 1980s. During that time period ammunition manufactures tested their hollow point designs in water tanks. Water does not compress. So, when a hollow point bullet impacts a hydraulic substance the water that is constantly being fed into nose of the bullet as it penetrates must escape at the weakest point of resistance. That weakest point is along the sides of the hollow point. So, the hydraulic force opens up the hollow point and causes the mushrooming effect. The problem with the water tank testing is that human tissue is not 100% water. So, the hydraulic forces involved in shooting a person are weaker than that of a water tank. This problem was very evident with lower velocity loads such as heavier bullet weights in 9mm, .38spl, .357mag, and .45acp. The poor engineering behind these early hollow points made for unreliable performance unless you cranked up the velocity of the bullets and used lighter bullet weights(this of course led shallow penetration characteristics with the 9mm and directly to the deaths of two FBI agents in 1986). In this time, the .357magnum was the ideal cartridge because it had the velocity to open up these poorly designed early hollow points and still have deep penetration.

In the 1987 FBI Wound Ballistics Workshop various calibers and ammunition types were tested and this problem was exposed to the ammunition industry. Since then, ammunition manufacturers started testing their hollow point designs in ballistic gel which more accurately mimics the density, elasticity, consistency, and water percentage of human tissue. With a more accurate model to standardize their ammunition by, calibers like the .357magnum and .357sig simply offer no measurable advantage over calibers like the .40S&W and .45acp which enter the body bigger, penetrate to ideal depths, and expand to larger diameters with consistent reliability in actual shootings. Also, the 9mm is capable of damaging more tissue and penetrating commonly encountered barriers better than the .357sig due to its ability to use longer, heavier bullet weights such as the 147gr bullet. The .357magnum can be loaded with much heavier bullets like the 158gr and 180gr, so it offers better capabilities over the 9mm should you wish to hunt or shoot through barriers.

The law enforcement trend in the 1970s was to move towards the .357magnum because it seemed to do better in the field over the 9mm, .38spl, and .45acp. As I mentioned above, it performed MUCH more reliably with early hollow points and actually expanded to a diameter greater than that of any of the other calibers. So, it damaged more “stuff”. There was none of the mythical energy dump, or other assumed effects to the body that were a result of impact energy, pressure wave, or neurological shock. With the technological advances in bullet designs in the last 20years, things have changed. The law enforcement trend of today focuses on the big three calibers which are the 9mm, .40S&W, and the .45acp…….very distant is the .357magnum and its auto clone the .357sig. Not only that, but the trend in ammunition use favors heavier bullet weights which penetrate more deeply and reliably than the light and fast, high kinetic energy bullets. Equipment trend is a direct result of measurable and observable results."


Lastly, one of the most factual, and conclusive statements you ever hear on handgun wounding ballistics:

"Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet." -Agent Urey Patrick of the FBI
 
That looks like a good test. Only the Government could afford to shoot a AA sided plywood.

I am suprised that the 357Sig did not do better. I guess Big and slow is the way to go. The heavy bullets out performed everything. This proves out Accuracy is the King and Penetration is the Queen!

Where did you get the info?
 
Make sure the bullet can get to and through the vitals and then use the biggest chunk of lead available. Very sound advice.

I disagree entirely regarding the kinetic energy and temporary cavity however. A good punch in the gut is all kinetic energy and temporary stretch. No penetration at all. My personal experience tells me getting punched or kicked in the guts will take the starch out of most folks. Now to be fair, when discussing killing effect it is a whole other matter. But saying it has no effect is not accurate.
 
Deaths of agents?

Didn't the failure of those agents to hit with 90% of their pistol rounds when shooting against rifle-armed bad guys have more to do with their deaths than an inch of penetration + or -?
 
Didn't the failure of those agents to hit with 90% of their pistol rounds when shooting against rifle-armed bad guys have more to do with their deaths than an inch of penetration + or -?
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Probably, but it's easier and cheaper to replace ammunition than it is to make significant improvements in human factors.
 
I think there were numerous factors in the ill-fated felony stop. One issue was the guy with the .223 mini was shot several times that were ultimately lethal but not immediately lethal. After taking the round he was able to move methodically about inflicting more damage. Reading the write up on that encounter is chilling.
 
"Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet." -Agent Urey Patrick of the FBI
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I've been saying this for years... and fought many battles on the boards defending this position.

Another meaningless phrase I would add to this is "stopping power". This is another undefinable, meaningless phrase tossed around on the boards. When someone brings it up, ask them for the metrics by which "stopping power" is measured and watch them squirm. :D
 
+++1111- For the above post. I've had that same argument here on this forum as well as others. .45 ACP for defense is a good choice, backed up by the OP's post. It's been working for almost 100 years, and will continue to do so for as long as we can own guns. I rememeber when the 9mm was all the rage and the .45 was pronounced as good as dead. I still have the magazines. Then it was the 10mm, then no, that wasn't quite right either. Then we had to have the 10mm light, aka 40 S&W. That in itself is an attempt to duplicate the 185gr. load in the .45. Looked to me then, and still does, that the gun companies and writers get together every few years to promote some new wonder round, when all they're really doing is trying to sell more guns. It's a shame that after all the B.S., they have come full circle and admit that lots of people were right all along, the .45 auto is really hard to beat.
 
As I recall the FBI shoot out with Platt and his buddy was about 25% ammo and weapons vs. 75% tactics. Both the bad guys were I think ex military and used counter ambush tactics like fire, advance movement and suppression fire on the FBI agents who were no way expecting that response to the stop. Not to mention the FBI's bullet hoses (H+K's)were not at the scene when it started. They expected the same old - same old, we chase they run stuff and got counter ambush instead. Seems to me the FBI used the 115 grain silver tip as a excuse for poor tactics.....
 
IMTHDUKE --

The table of penetration/expansion is virtually meaningless since it doesn't list type/brand of ammo. It is presumably with hollowpoint ammo since they test expansion. I see that .45 acp was not included. I know I have seen tests of specific types of ammo where the performance of the ammo tested exceeds that listed in the table.

The poor engineering behind these early hollow points made for unreliable performance unless you cranked up the velocity of the bullets and used lighter bullet weights(this of course led shallow penetration characteristics with the 9mm and directly to the deaths of two FBI agents in 1986).
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I think this last point is an overstatement by SA Patrick. There was only ONE bullet which failed to adequately penetrate, stopping about 1/4 inch short of a vital organ. I'm not positive, but I think this may have come through a barrier or at an angle. The rest of the handgun rounds all hit non-vital areas. There is no doubt, however, that there is better ammo on the market today.

Regarding the .357 magnum, SA Patrick dismisses the round in it's popular lighter loads (e.g, 125 gr) but then states "The .357magnum can be loaded with much heavier bullets like the 158gr and 180gr, so it offers better capabilities over the 9mm should you wish to hunt or shoot through barriers." A good 158 gr. load is also a darned good general defensive round. In a four inch .357, it's my round of choice.

"Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration.
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I mostly agree with this. I'm not sure what he means by "shock." If he's talking about physical shock, like knocking back, then I agree. A total myth. There is, however, a documented mental shock which occurs when many people are wounded. The problem is that you cannot count on this -- some people are effected very little by the mental shock. In addition, there can be indirect injuries caused by bullets. See, http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298156. I at least accept the theory that high velocity rounds (rifle velocities) can cause these indirect types of injuries. I lean against lower velocity rounds being able to do so.

Finally, I concluded a long time ago that a bigger bullet was better. My preferred carry weapon is a 1911 .45 acp. However, there are other reasonably effective calibers with the right ammo and I do not hesitate in carrying these when the occasion warrants.
 
Quote:
"Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet." -Agent Urey Patrick of the FBI
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I've been saying this for years... and fought many battles on the boards defending this position.

Another meaningless phrase I would add to this is "stopping power". This is another undefinable, meaningless phrase tossed around on the boards. When someone brings it up, ask them for the metrics by which "stopping power" is measured and watch them squirm.
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When talking about handgun calibers, perhaps. Rifle calibers on the otherhand I'm not so sure. Just because something is hard to explain does not mean it is not a factor. There is a reason that a .223 caliber bullet traveling at 2500 fps can drop someone in their tracks while a .40 caliber bullet from a handgun can seemingly do nothing. Watch a hunting show sometime where a deer will drop dead in its tracks when shot with a high energy/velocity rifle caliber. There is something that happens there that is hard to explain but it still happens.
 
out in the real world

I wonder what actual experiences have taught us?

(I guess it's taught us that the 9x19 115g JHP+P+ works, and the 125g HP 357 SIG works, and the 357 Magnum 125g JHP works, and the 38 Special 158g LSWC-HP works, and the 135g, 155g, and 165g .400" HPs work, and the 230g HP fired from 45 ACP works. And some other stuff.
Real 'tests'.)

But I been wrong before.
 
I know something else that works: A 1969 Buick 225 electra going about 55mph. I am not sure about the Foot Pounds of Energy, stopping power or Taylor KO factor of that, but it is Big and heavy and will flat out ruin your day if it hits you. Even better it has reverse and can back up over you while you are down:D But its more expensive to fill up than a S&W 500mag and concealment is not its best trait. I think I will stick to 230gr Bullets in 45 cal.
 
Why my favorite 'weapon' is my car.

I once figured out the 'Power Factor' of my 2000 Subaru, but I bought a new one.
Fortunately, their weights are virtually identical (but it's "heavy and fast".... :rolleyes:).
 
What this tells me is that if I select any premium HP SD ammo in 9mm on up it should get the job done just fine and that any debates over caliber is meaningless in this caliber/bullet category thanks to the advances of bullet design. Now I'm free to choose the platform that fits me and my tastes best instead of the platform for a specific round e.g. Glock for 9mm, 1911 for .45.
 
yes accuracy is King,penatration is Queen and kinetic energy is a Joker.maybe yes maybe no and IMHO under say 400 ft lbs probably no, above 700 ft lbs chances are better.
bottom line the new premium ammo works pretty good it expands more consistantly and requires less energy to expand.
 
When it comes to street shootings, here's an explaination of how the parent of the .357sig(the .357magnum) gained the "manstopper" reputation......and most importantly, why it is no longer relevant today:
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How did the .357 Magnum become the parent of the .357 Sig? They have nothing in common other than the .357 in the name. Plus somehow a (normally) revolver round is being kicked around in a discussion of semi-auto ammo?

The parents of the .357 Sig are more likely a 9mm and a .40 S&W. Probably the only reason you don't hear anything about it is that the first friend the 9mm bragged to pointed out that the .40 case had to be necked down to fit his round and that took all the fun out of retelling the story. :rolleyes:
 
What this tells me is that if I select any premium HP SD ammo in 9mm on up it should get the job done just fine and that any debates over caliber is meaningless in this caliber/bullet category thanks to the advances of bullet design.
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DINGDINGDINGDINGDING!!! We have a WINNER!!!

How did the .357 Magnum become the parent of the .357 Sig?
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IIRC, the .357 Sig was originally designed to duplicate the ballistic envelope of the 125-grain .357 Magnum round.
 
IIRC, the .357 Sig was originally designed to duplicate the ballistic envelope of the 125-grain .357 Magnum round.
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Bingo. It was designed to bring the ballistics of the .357 magnum to a caliber in a semi-auto pistol. So yes, the .357 magnum was the inspiration for the .357 Sig.
 
"Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding.
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With rifle bullets, the temporary cavity is everything. Tissue is stretched beyond it's ability and blood vessels are torn. Any deer hunter knows this.

With some pistol calibers, like the .357 mag. or .357 SIG, how can anyone with a straight face say the stretch cavity is insignificant? What's the magic velocity where suddenly the stretch cavity becomes deadly? Maybe someone can explain what the .357 mag. has going for it if it isn't it's higher velocities that produce impressive stretch cavities (for a pistol). The theory that if we can't measure it, it doesn't exist isn't very forward thinking---anymore than reciting the old argument like a parrot, that "penetration is everything".

Seems like we all have our own definition of "stopping power" and like to criticize others' definitions. Use what definition you like. If you judge all bullets by the same criteria, you can still learn what bullets work best on the street.

And when you find that a bullet that only penetrates 10" works better than some of the bullets that meet the old "penetration is everything" criteria, some people go on the attack and start pulling out the same ol' ten year old criticisms (with never anything new) to vociferously defend their opinion. They must win the argument at any cost. They'll attack. Argue. Never let it go.
 
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