Faces of drug legalization

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Badly-produced amphetamines are poison and, when combined with the lack of attention to diet and hygiene that lurking in a criminal underclass encourage, suck the life right out of you.

Well said. I agree. But one question...the pharmeceutical abusers...Do they start looking like that also? Is it too much speed in general or just too much low quality contaminated speed? (do they really use battery acid to make that stuff like one poster implied?)

If amphetamines by their very nature are so toxic, why do we give them to our nation's expensively-trained, extremely fit, and hugely responsible warplane pilots?

Well I already indicated that I could agree with military use. Disciplined fit people with a specific short term need. Good quality stuff obviously administered by qualified personell.

At any rate, poor thread title or not, a pics worth a thousand words and rhe very graphic nature of before & after pics may be useful for me at least to show the kids and maybe it'll dissuade them from ever even trying it. Sorta like how I used to demonstrate the destructive power of guns to them by shooting cans of pop.

BTW, is this stuff good for euthenising dogs? He ate my new Molon Labe hat while I was out working and I want revenge. :mad: (one rock or two? J/K :D )
 
Well said. I agree. But one question...the pharmeceutical abusers...Do they start looking like that also? Is it too much speed in general or just too much low quality contaminated speed? (do they really use battery acid to make that stuff like one poster implied?)

Meth suppresses the appetite and causes sleep deprivation, whether it's made in a high end facility or the back of some van. Continued abuse of it will have the negative effects on the appearance shown in the pictures.
 
tyme, what I'm saying is that the government would not turn the drug trade over to the public - at least not at first and not with out a fight. More than likely you'd have to purchase drugs from the government. Maybe over time this would change, but that's arguable.

In order for the government to take on this project, among other things, they'll have to devise standards for each drug they'll supply. Quantity, potency...etc.

It's very realistic to believe that the government would not supply, say heroine, at the level of potency, which the drug using public wants to consume. In essence the company (.gov) is supplying a variant of a product (low-dose heroine) that the buying public is not demanding.

So where will the drug using public turn to get what they want? The (what will still be deemed) "illegal drug trade" - which is the same place they currently turn for the wanted commodity.

Again, none of this is fact, these are all possible scenarios as are all the above opinions. No one knows how this would transpire. We can only speculate.

But given the governments track record (ATF <--- perfect example) they'd stick there claws in this and never let go.

Why don't they let private companies regulate firearms? Same reason's they will not let private companies regulate drugs.

"Yeah but private companies produce firearms and sell them".

Correct!

But look how the government (both federal and state level) regulate the distribution of firearms... and seem to be infringing on the production aspect as well. Look at California, micro-stamping on shell casings??? All sorts of regulations regarding folding stocks, pistol grips, flash suppressors...etc.

There are constant attempts to make things more restrictive on both the federal and state level.
 
The stamp of approval by the private monitoring agency would be contractually contingent on honesty.

That is the problem, right there. Independent watchdog is really what you need here. Even now, the problem as assessed by the NAS is that there is insufficient independence. What happened was that the funding for the FDA was cut back significantly, and at the same time, to allow them to continue their work, the industry was made to pay a significant amount of the tab. sounds good at one level, making the industry pick up the tab for it's testing. Bad idea. There is a conflict of interest there - at that point, to some extent, the funding relationship really muddies the waters - is the FDA supposed to keep an eye on drug companies, or keep them happy, because they now also hold part of the purse strings?

Drugs are a product, yes, but several things are different about them than any other product.

First, they are very powerful agents, with the power not only to bring great benefits, but also great harm - that's how the FDA got to be there in the first place.

Secondly, this is a very high risk, high capital, high revenue potential industry. Typically, when you get to the independent testing, the company has invested 10+ years and 500million+ dollars in that one product. Competitors are also working in the same area, and it is also a race - even if they could afford a loss of ten years labor and capital investment, they can't just toss it and start over again if things don't work out - someone else will be there in 6 months, a year, max two years. Meanwhile, hundreds of millions of investors around the world are watching through a microscope for any wind of results - waiting to either punish or reward the company immensely based on the outcome (there may be a 50% swing). In the best case at least, success may mean multibillion dollar annual gross sales with 15 years of patent protection. Careers are at stake, personal fortunes are at stake, a company's solvency may be at stake. There are very high pressures on this testing, and I don't mean that in a good way. It's not like when a new bicycle comes out at Huffy, and sorry, but I think it is naive' to think that the oversight can be handled by anyone.
 
If William "Off With Dealer's Heads" Buckley can come around to the side of logic, maybe there is something valid about the argument for legalization:

"WE ARE speaking of a plague that consumes an estimated $75 billion per year of public money, exacts an estimated $70 billion a year from consumers, is responsible for nearly 50 per cent of the million Americans who are today in jail, occupies an estimated 50 per cent of the trial time of our judiciary, and takes the time of 400,000 policemen -- yet a plague for which no cure is at hand, nor in prospect.

Perhaps you, ladies and gentlemen of the Bar, will understand it if I chronicle my own itinerary on the subject of drugs and public policy. When I ran for mayor of New York, the political race was jocular, but the thought given to municipal problems was entirely serious, and in my paper on drugs and in my post-election book I advocated their continued embargo, but on unusual grounds. I had read -- and I think the evidence continues to affirm it -- that drug-taking is a gregarious activity. What this means, I said, is that an addict is in pursuit of company and therefore attempts to entice others to share with him his habit. Under the circumstances, I said, it can reasonably be held that drug-taking is a contagious disease and, accordingly, subject to the conventional restrictions employed to shield the innocent from Typhoid Mary. Some sport was made of my position by libertarians, including Professor Milton Friedman, who asked whether the police might legitimately be summoned if it were established that keeping company with me was a contagious activity.

I recall all of this in search of philosophical perspective. Back in 1965 I sought to pay conventional deference to libertarian presumptions against outlawing any activity potentially harmful only to the person who engages in that activity. I cited John Stuart Mill and, while at it, opined that there was no warrant for requiring motorcyclists to wear a helmet. I was seeking, and I thought I had found, a reason to override the presumption against intercession by the state.

About ten years later, I deferred to a different allegiance, this one not the presumptive opposition to state intervention, but a different order of priorities. A conservative should evaluate the practicality of a legal constriction, as for instance in those states whose statute books continue to outlaw sodomy, which interdiction is unenforceable, making the law nothing more than print-on-paper. I came to the conclusion that the so-called war against drugs was not working, that it would not work absent a change in the structure of the civil rights to which we are accustomed and to which we cling as a valuable part of our patrimony. And that therefore if that war against drugs is not working, we should look into what effects the war has, a canvass of the casualties consequent on its failure to work. That consideration encouraged me to weigh utilitarian principles: the Benthamite calculus of pain and pleasure introduced by the illegalization of drugs.

A YEAR or so ago I thought to calculate a ratio, however roughly arrived at, toward the elaboration of which I would need to place a dollar figure on deprivations that do not lend themselves to quantification. Yet the law, lacking any other recourse, every day countenances such quantifications, as when asking a jury to put a dollar figure on the damage done by the loss of a plaintiff's right arm, amputated by defective machinery at the factory. My enterprise became allegorical in character -- I couldn't do the arithmetic -- but the model, I think, proves useful in sharpening perspectives.

Professor Steven Duke of Yale Law School, in his valuable book, America's Longest War: Rethinking Our Tragic Crusade against Drugs, and scholarly essay, ``Drug Prohibition: An Unnatural Disaster,'' reminds us that it isn't the use of illegal drugs that we have any business complaining about, it is the abuse of such drugs. It is acknowledged that tens of millions of Americans (I have seen the figure 85 million) have at one time or another consumed, or exposed themselves to, an illegal drug. But the estimate authorized by the federal agency charged with such explorations is that there are not more than 1 million regular cocaine users, defined as those who have used the drug at least once in the preceding week. There are (again, an informed estimate) 5 million Americans who regularly use marijuana; and again, an estimated 70 million who once upon a time, or even twice upon a time, inhaled marijuana. From the above we reasonably deduce that Americans who abuse a drug, here defined as Americans who become addicted to it or even habituated to it, are a very small percentage of those who have experimented with a drug, or who continue to use a drug without any observable distraction in their lives or careers. About such users one might say that they are the equivalent of those Americans who drink liquor but do not become alcoholics, or those Americans who smoke cigarettes but do not suffer a shortened lifespan as a result.

Curiosity naturally flows to ask, next, How many users of illegal drugs in fact die from the use of them? The answer is complicated in part because marijuana finds itself lumped together with cocaine and heroin, and nobody has ever been found dead from marijuana. The question of deaths from cocaine is complicated by the factor of impurity. It would not be useful to draw any conclusions about alcohol consumption, for instance, by observing that, in 1931, one thousand Americans died from alcohol consumption if it happened that half of those deaths, or more than half, were the result of drinking alcohol with toxic ingredients extrinsic to the drug as conventionally used. When alcohol was illegal, the consumer could never know whether he had been given relatively harmless alcohol to drink -- such alcoholic beverages as we find today in the liquor store -- or whether the bootlegger had come up with paralyzing rotgut. By the same token, purchasers of illegal cocaine and heroin cannot know whether they are consuming a drug that would qualify for regulated consumption after clinical analysis.

But we do know this, and I approach the nexus of my inquiry, which is that more people die every year as a result of the war against drugs than die from what we call, generically, overdosing. These fatalities include, perhaps most prominently, drug merchants who compete for commercial territory, but include also people who are robbed and killed by those desperate for money to buy the drug to which they have become addicted.

This is perhaps the moment to note that the pharmaceutical cost of cocaine and heroin is approximately 2 per cent of the street price of those drugs. Since a cocaine addict can spend as much as $1,000 per week to sustain his habit, he would need to come up with that $1,000. The approximate fencing cost of stolen goods is 80 per cent, so that to come up with $1,000 can require stealing $5,000 worth of jewels, cars, whatever. We can see that at free-market rates, $20 per week would provide the addict with the cocaine which, in this wartime drug situation, requires of him $1,000.

My mind turned, then, to auxiliary expenses -- auxiliary pains, if you wish. The crime rate, whatever one made of its modest curtsy last year toward diminution, continues its secular rise. Serious crime is 480 per cent higher than in 1965. The correlation is not absolute, but it is suggestive: crime is reduced by the number of available enforcers of law and order, namely policemen. The heralded new crime legislation, passed last year and acclaimed by President Clinton, provides for 100,000 extra policemen, even if only for a limited amount of time. But 400,000 policemen would be freed to pursue criminals engaged in activity other than the sale and distribution of drugs if such sale and distribution, at a price at which there was no profit, were to be done by, say, a federal drugstore.

So then we attempt to put a value on the goods stolen by addicts. The figure arrived at by Professor Duke is $10 billion. But we need to add to this pain of stolen property, surely, the extra-material pain suffered by victims of robbers. If someone breaks into your house at night, perhaps holding you at gunpoint while taking your money and your jewelry and whatever, it is reasonable to assign a higher ``cost'' to the episode than the commercial value of the stolen money and jewelry. If we were modest, we might reasonably, however arbitrarily, put at $1,000 the ``value'' of the victim's pain. But then the hurt, the psychological trauma, might be evaluated by a jury at ten times, or one hundred times, that sum.

But we must consider other factors, not readily quantifiable, but no less tangible. Fifty years ago, to walk at night across Central Park was no more adventurous than to walk down Fifth Avenue. But walking across the park is no longer done, save by the kind of people who climb the Matterhorn. Is it fair to put a value on a lost amenity? If the Metropolitan Museum were to close, mightn't we, without fear of distortion, judge that we had been deprived of something valuable? What value might we assign to confidence that, at night, one can sleep without fear of intrusion by criminals seeking money or goods exchangeable for drugs?"
 
Continued:

"Pursuing utilitarian analysis, we ask: What are the relative costs, on the one hand, of medical and psychological treatment for addicts and, on the other, incarceration for drug offenses? It transpires that treatment is seven times more cost-effective. By this is meant that one dollar spent on the treatment of an addict reduces the probability of continued addiction seven times more than one dollar spent on incarceration. Looked at another way: Treatment is not now available for almost half of those who would benefit from it. Yet we are willing to build more and more jails in which to isolate drug users even though at one-seventh the cost of building and maintaining jail space and pursuing, detaining, and prosecuting the drug user, we could subsidize commensurately effective medical care and psychological treatment."I HAVE spared you, even as I spared myself, an arithmetical consummation of my inquiry, but the data here cited instruct us that the cost of the drug war is many times more painful, in all its manifestations, than would be the licensing of drugs combined with intensive education of non-users and intensive education designed to warn those who experiment with drugs. We have seen a substantial reduction in the use of tobacco over the last thirty years, and this is not because tobacco became illegal but because a sentient community began, in substantial numbers, to apprehend the high cost of tobacco to human health, even as, we can assume, a growing number of Americans desist from practicing unsafe sex and using polluted needles in this age of AIDS. If 80 million Americans can experiment with drugs and resist addiction using information publicly available, we can reasonably hope that approximately the same number would resist the temptation to purchase such drugs even if they were available at a federal drugstore at the mere cost of production.

And added to the above is the point of civil justice. Those who suffer from the abuse of drugs have themselves to blame for it. This does not mean that society is absolved from active concern for their plight. It does mean that their plight is subordinate to the plight of those citizens who do not experiment with drugs but whose life, liberty, and property are substantially affected by the illegalization of the drugs sought after by the minority.

I have not spoken of the cost to our society of the astonishing legal weapons available now to policemen and prosecutors; of the penalty of forfeiture of one's home and property for violation of laws which, though designed to advance the war against drugs, could legally be used -- I am told by learned counsel -- as penalties for the neglect of one's pets. I leave it at this, that it is outrageous to live in a society whose laws tolerate sending young people to life in prison because they grew, or distributed, a dozen ounces of marijuana. I would hope that the good offices of your vital profession would mobilize at least to protest such excesses of wartime zeal, the legal equivalent of a My Lai massacre. And perhaps proceed to recommend the legalization of the sale of most drugs, except to minors. "
 
Trip, I agree that the government might legalize use of some drugs... pot, maybe shrooms, maybe maybe LSD. Heroin? Crack? PCP? I just don't see it, unfortunately. Unless all drugs are legalized, I'm not interested in an at-the-margins approach where use of one or a few drugs is legalized. I think the problem of universal drug use legalization is closer than you think to the problem of universal drug transfer/sale/manufacture legalization.

Caleb, for out-of-patent drugs, conflict of interest occurs because companies have to meet FDA requirements. If it's voluntary, companies only comply with testing if the test results mean something. In order to mean something, there has to be a public perception that the testing agency is ethical. Furthermore, wouldn't pressure from competing producers and the media expose any ethical lapses at the testing agency?

For in-patent, newly developed drugs, I think the public realizes the importance of some sort of reliable testing (again, media and competing drug companies serve as watchdogs). If the FDA has to exist at all, couldn't it at least be made voluntary? Sure, the stakes are high. But as you admit, the current FDA already has a conflict of interest. Would it really get much worse if the whole thing were privatized and made voluntary, such that FDA's (or an analogous agency's) stamp of approval only meant something if consumers believed in meant something, rather than being merely a stamp of government approval to avoid being sent to prison?

If there's not enough private money to run a non-profit like the FDA without resorting to handouts from drug companies, that suggests people aren't as concerned with quality or side effects as reporting by media conglomerates suggests. If you don't have faith in the economic system to handle drug safety and quality, you might as well write off economics in every area of medicine because human health is just too important to be entrusted to some invisible hand. We know how that ends: socialized medicine artificially limits quality of care and innovation, while taxes skyrocket.
 
By the same token, purchasers of illegal cocaine and heroin cannot know whether they are consuming a drug that would qualify for regulated consumption after clinical analysis.

But 400,000 policemen would be freed to pursue criminals engaged in activity other than the sale and distribution of drugs if such sale and distribution, at a price at which there was no profit, were to be done by, say, a federal drugstore.

Government regulated manufacture and distribution.

This is perhaps the moment to note that the pharmaceutical cost of cocaine and heroin is approximately 2 per cent of the street price of those drugs. Since a cocaine addict can spend as much as $1,000 per week to sustain his habit, he would need to come up with that $1,000. The approximate fencing cost of stolen goods is 80 per cent, so that to come up with $1,000 can require stealing $5,000 worth of jewels, cars, whatever. We can see that at free-market rates, $20 per week would provide the addict with the cocaine which, in this wartime drug situation, requires of him $1,000.

That's funny.
 
I don't care for Meth. Too dangerous and cut and likely to screw you up. I prefer Adderall. ;)

I hate to break it to everyone, but the legal stuff is all better than the illegal stuff. Ever heard of freebasing caffeine?
 
We can see that at free-market rates, $20 per week would provide the addict with the cocaine which, in this wartime drug situation, requires of him $1,000.

Would the addict be content with the same amount of cocaine if it only costs him $20, or would he buy 50 times the cocaine for the same $1000 he was spending?
 
ATW - that's one of the reasons I found it amusing. Anyone who would make that comment, or believe that comment has obviously had zero experience with an addictive narcotic.

Most people do not use cocaine in it's powder form - as opposed to earlier decades - which is one reason why the Mayor's scenerio is ridiculous. In fact cocaine in it's powder form is arguably not very addictive. Introduce Crack.

Crack was, according to legend, created by Yanqui drugs traffickers in the early 1970s as a way of testing the purity of South American bought cocaine.

Crack cocaine is a very powerful form of cocaine where the hydrochloride salts that form cocaine hydrochloride have been removed through a fairly simple chemical process and the resulting rocks of crack cocaine are smoked and it produces a very instant and powerful high.

FREEBASE cocaine, of which Crack is one form, takes effect within seconds of being inhaled it is a very efficient way of delivering cocaine to the brain. There is an initial rush of immensely pleasurable feelings lasting for up to two minutes This is followed by an intense high lasting for about thirty minutes. As the effects of the drug wear off there are some unpleasant after effects.

It is common for the user to feel tired, depressed, and perhaps anxious the head and body may ache and there may be increased sensitivity to light and noise. Users may feel irritable, hungry and possibly experience panic attacks. In order to avoid the unpleasant feelings crack users often take more crack as one dose wears off.

This is where the $20/week starts to lose credibility. You just don’t “budget” your drug use… especially with a drug such as this. To think this plan will work is naive.
 
If you don't have faith in the economic system to handle drug safety and quality

No, I do not have faith in the economic system to handle drug evaluation. Before the FDA exisited, there was a free market system for drugs, no heavy handed testing for efficacy and safety - just like you are advocating - so we've already been there. Consumers and physicians used drugs and decided for themselves what was best - so your innovative plan was rejected as the status quo about 75 years ago.

Before the FDA existed, it is no exaggeration to say that the penetrating oversight of the consumer market produced a situation in which the majority of medicines were completely worthless, and of what remained, many of them were also harmful. Most people recieved no benefit, many received illness and many others died from their treatments without anyone understanding why. And that situation continued, it wasn't a one time occurence - it was the status quo. If you read my posting regarding regulation of commerce in the "Tyranny" thread, I think you'll find that I do believe in free trade. I am not dogmatic, however, and I very clearly understand why we need careful, rigorous and independent testing of drugs.

To get some more mature apprecation of why drugs may be dangerous, I suggest you read a text each of molecular biology and pharmacology. Then just skim some proteomics and genetics. Then read a book on drug design, how it's done - this will begin to give you an understanding of what can go wrong, and why it's so difficult, and why it so often goes wrong.

Then, read a little bit about the testing procedures that are actually performed during the minimum 3 stages of clinical trials that are supervised by the FDA... what is done, how they are tested, what they are looking for, what sort of performance is typical, and why, how, and how often things fail.

Then read a book about the business and economic aspects of the pharmaceutical industry, as told by analysts from inside the industry.

Then, you won't know 10% of what I know about this area, but you will likely already have a very different idea about how drugs should be tested.
 
It is common for the user to feel tired, depressed, and perhaps anxious the head and body may ache and there may be increased sensitivity to light and noise. Users may feel irritable, hungry and possibly experience panic attacks. In order to avoid the unpleasant feelings crack users often take more crack as one dose wears off.

I'd like to point out that the more the addict takes in the worse this gets. Cocaine (in all it's forms) and Meth both raise dopemine levels in the brain which is what causes the euphoric "high"... to compensate for the increased levels dopemine receptors are reduced and become less sensitive to dopemine. This means the addict has to constantly intake more and more drugs just to function on the same level as everybody else, not to mention even more drugs to actually get high. It's a cycle that will continue until the addict is either detoxed or dies.
 
Yeah ATW - but Mr. Buckley seems to think the addict will just be cutting expenses and intake will remain the same. :rolleyes:

That just cracks me up. No punn intended.
 
As to the crime aspect of this whole hypothesis.

Do some here believe that crime rates will drop? I suppose that might be inevitable... since we're taking actions that were otherwise criminal/punishable (i.e. possession, intent to distribute...etc) and making them just the opposite - legal. But I wonder if violent crime and all other types of crime associated with drug use would actually drop...

Also, lets say tomorrow drugs/drug use/drug trade were all deemed legal. Would we have to grandfather it in? As in, if you were conficted on or before 6/23/05 your conviction will stand. After this date it's no longer a criminal offense?

Or would we just release hoards of insavory people from our prison systems. People from which you otherwise choose to protect yourself by carrying firearms.
 
tyme: In addition to all that I have already said, if you wish to experience first hand what your plan will do, then go to the US Clinical Trials Information Site:
http://clinicaltrials.gov/

...and register to participate in FDA supervised, phase I clinical trials - that's the first people who get the drug, so it is the best approximation of your free market solution to testing. The drug companies will even pay you to do this consumer testing - I don't understand why everyone doesn't do it professionally? What could be an easier job? Take some pills and get a check!

Do about 10 phase I trials - no big deal right, you've probably taken approved medicines hundreds of times in your life, right? How risky could it be to take unapproved medicines then? After all the FDA isn't adding any value by imposing this layer, and entire teams of PhDs at pharmaceutical companies have already spent years designing, developing and testing before they ever each this point. Drugs and the human physiology are trivial! Plus, the pharma companies have no market incentive for screwing up! So, economic theory plus your common sense as a consumer clearly dictate that phase I trials must be perfectly safe! So go and do just 10 of them - put your money where your mouth is. :rolleyes:
 
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1437727.html?menu=

Children's toys blamed for drug addiction

Children at playschool in Austria are having their toys taken away in the belief it will help them fight drug addiction and alcoholism later in life.

The project called 'toy-free kindergartens' will see groups of youngsters forced to go without their usual classroom playthings for three months to make them more independent and socially integrated.

Vienna city councillor for health, Renate Brauner, said the campaign was to prevent children from becoming addicted to drugs and alcohol in adulthood by developing their social competence.

"Pilot tests have shown that taking away children's toys encourages them to think more about how to entertain themselves. They become more social and even those on the outside of the group find a positive role," she said.

The campaign comes after recent studies in Austria found more and more children are growing up in families in which one or both parents drink too much alcohol and the number of teenagers developing problems with alcohol and drugs is growing.
====
 
Where are the Photos from

I can tell you all one thing for sure from my own personal experience. Meth is an evil drug. I have done some drugs over time. including LSD, marijuana, mushrooms, crack, cocain, ecstacy, and meth. Now it would seem to a person reading this that i am one like those pictured above. This is not the case. I am a long time marijuana smoker. I would say since i was 16 on a daily basis. I am now 25. The other drugs listed above are one that i only used three to five times. Out of all of the drugs i have tried meth is the number one evil. I have seen many friends go from being completely normal and quite intelligent to being incredibly stupid and careless. Stealing from everywhere possible to get more meth. I had to sever ties with my best friend of more than 7 years because he became addicted to meth. It makes you feel very good, even empowered. i have been told by others who used meth for a period of years that they still love the way it makes them feel. Even after having just talked about how it was ruining their lives. Females seem to use meth over other drugs, i have been told, because it makes sex GREAT. I cannot attest to the sexual part because i don't believe i would have been able to perform, even if i did want to have sex with someone. The few times i took it i just wanted to sit at home and watch movies or work on my art, and oh yeah do more meth. None of the other drugs i have taken in the past have ever made me feel like that. luckily i caught myself before it was too late. And i would partly blame it for my addiction to marijuana. Before i had tried meth i would smoke regular weed. When i started taking meth though it was like it just didn't have an effect. So i got scared and thought the only way i was going to be able to stop was to switch to more potent marijuana refered to as chronic and by doing that i would not need or want meth. And it worked i wanted to get meth for a week or two but i just kept smoking chronic and soon the cravings for meth stopped and i was able to move on. Now i am not i criminal i do have a medical card for marijuana as i live in california and have severe back issuses.

Those pics that are posted are from mug shots. These are already people who have commited some crime. I would like to see the first set of pics be from a regular family photo or something. Seeing two booking pics doesn't make me feel like those people are normal citizens. Just criminals who haen to use drugs to. And no I do not consider drugs users criminals unless they do other illegal things. Like steal or hurt people.
 
Well first off I am against Gov't Meddlin' .

I do know from MY experience with being a damned old drunk, that no matter what society "said" , or what some law "said" - I did as I damned well pleased.

This seems to mirror other addictions besides Alcohol.

Now having been sober for 21+ years, I can say "it works if you work it" - you will notice there is no mention of "society" , or "laws" - the word you is the important word. Only an individual can change themselves. Don't care if meth, crack, booze, oversleeping, or missing the toilet.

Addiction: I believe from my personal experience, If I were to start drinking after these 21+ years, it would not take long to "be" at whatever stage of Alcoholism I would have been if I had never stopped, or died . I know, see the judge and I made a deal once, I would take the anti-buse for a year [law] and in return he would not toss my butt in jail, and levy a heavier fine. About 3 weeks after I finished taking the antibuse, and not under the "law" - I was blind drunk and running as if I had never stopped for a year.

Nicotine is unique, it brings one up , brings one down - depending on what the brain wants.

I have buried folks that have been sober for a year, 5 years, to as much as 35 years - decided for whatever reason to drink and it killed them.

Michigan Monkey studies with cocaine mirrored the same results. Given a choice of cocaine, sex, food, drink or toys, they pushed the button for cocaine until they died. They even took away the cocaine option, in time allowed it again - and the monkey's chose the cocaine.

So even if the price drops, the addicts by definition - will want more meth, coke or whatever is no matter if regulated, not regulated, easy to get , or harder to get.

Education is not a bad option. I mean find a place out in the middle of nowhere, let all the meth heads do as they please- the understanding is, they stay in that area and will be left alone, they receive no help , they are self sufficient.

If they come back, they will be busted or hanged. If they reach out for help, and seriously work the program to get straight - fine.

Even sitting in a cell with other drunks, meth heads, coke brains...they get real tired of that scene.

Always wondered if all the gang bangers , dope heads, rapists, murderers and such were tossed onto an remote island, and had to make it on their own. Free will to shoot, rob, pillage and plunder - if they wouldn't change some behaviors if let to their own devices.

I don't have solution - other maybe the remote island idea. If one keep doing what they have always done - they get the same result. So the Gov't meddlin in the Wars on "[]" don't seem to be working, didn't work with Prohibition, hell I say lets find a remote island.

Some get clean and become productive again - fine. They die or kill each other off - just the natural order of things at work again.

Just they are not to depend, or recieve anything from the productive society.

One has to reach their own bottom- whatever that bottom may be for them.
 
CarbineCaleb said:
No, I do not have faith in the economic system to handle drug evaluation. Before the FDA exisited, there was a free market system for drugs, no heavy handed testing for efficacy and safety - just like you are advocating - so we've already been there. Consumers and physicians used drugs and decided for themselves what was best - so your innovative plan was rejected as the status quo about 75 years ago.
The nanny state rose to power about 75 years ago. Consumers and physicians did not decide for themselves what was best. They perpetually, and without authorization, granted Congress and the Executive the perpetual right to decide for citizens what is best for them. I'm not aware of any amendment giving the federal government the power to regulate any substance that may or may not have medical effects.

Why do I have to participate in 10 trials? You must realize that it would take a long time to participate in 10 of those trials given that volunteers generally can't do more than one at a time. Wouldn't 1 be enough to prove that I supported making treatments available without FDA approval?

I'd volunteer for a vaccine trial in a heartbeat is because I understand pretty well how they work, but there are no vaccine trials around here. I tried to volunteer for the NIAID ebola vaccine a couple years ago but you pretty much have to live near the beltway for the logistics to work. Most of the other vaccine trials are in Maryland; there are a couple in Kentucky. If I ever move to Virginia (which is a possibility), I'll be signing up for any vaccines I can.

If people aren't happy with treatment options and they want an experimental vaccine, who is the FDA to limit access to it? If someone with HIV, Cancer, and TB blindly signs up for every experimental drug for any of those conditions, sure, cumulative chances are fairly high that some of them will interact poorly or they'll have horrible side effects. Chances are even fairly good that the volunteer will end up dead quicker than they would without treatment. People who exercise no caution at all in taking drugs, even ones that have been around for 50 years but especially drugs that are brand new and newly patented, are fools. I'm confident that everyone else can handle life without the FDA mucking with the drug development process.
 
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