Faces of drug legalization

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Edward429451,

Meth is poison and sucks the life right out of you, look at the pics.
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Badly-produced amphetamines are poison and, when combined with the lack of attention to diet and hygiene that lurking in a criminal underclass encourage, suck the life right out of you.

If amphetamines by their very nature are so toxic, why do we give them to our nation's expensively-trained, extremely fit, and hugely responsible warplane pilots?
 
As a drug dealer, you couldn't set prices based only on what buyers would pay. Competition drives down prices whether or not there's a change in the demand side of the market. Since there are plenty of chemists and horticulturists who would love to make a small fraction of what drug syndicate leaders make, it's pretty clear that if drugs were legalized, the price of drugs would crash... even if you consider that the amateur chemist/horticulturist would have more overhead due to less efficient production.
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I see... so the world will be a better place because everybody will be able to cook thier own Meth, and the prices will tumble. I don't know about you, but I really can't wait until the day the other people in my building can start up thier own Meth labs, because I'd love the overpowering urine-like fragrance in the air, the toxic residues of hazardous waste sticking to everything I own... and if the labs explodes one night and burns the building down... well hey... it's only my home, right? What's that compared to some lowlife scumbag's right to get high?
 
Atw525,

I don't know about you, but I really can't wait until the day the other people in my building can start up thier own Meth labs,
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Are the people in your building distilling their own vodka? Growing their own tobacco? Slaughtering their own hogs? No? Then why would they suddenly get all industrious, and waste their time and risk their health producing a product inferior to one that Bristol Myers Squibb will be happy to produce for them, and better, cheaper, and faster, at that?

I've noticed that since Repeal, bathtubs are more often used for bathing than gin production...
 
Are the people in your building distilling their own vodka? Growing their own tobacco? Slaughtering their own hogs? No? Then why would they suddenly get all industrious, and waste their time and risk their health producing a product inferior to one that Bristol Myers Squibb will be happy to produce for them, and better, cheaper, and faster, at that?
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But using that logic would defeat the argument for sudden crash of drug prices because everybody will be making thier own, wouldn't it? ;)

I highly doubt Bristol Meyers Squibb is going to suddenly decide to sell drugs for pennies per dose. Which means drug addicts will still need to get money for thier fix... and I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly wouldn't hire anybody who was addicted to (and actively using) drugs (or alcohol for that matter).
 
I see... so the world will be a better place because everybody will be able to cook thier own Meth, and the prices will tumble. I don't know about you, but I really can't wait until the day the other people in my building can start up thier own Meth labs, because I'd love the overpowering urine-like fragrance in the air, the toxic residues of hazardous waste sticking to everything I own... and if the labs explodes one night and burns the building down... well hey... it's only my home, right? What's that compared to some lowlife scumbag's right to get high?
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If meth production were legal and you were in an apartment building, you could complain to the property owner.

Consider that if meth production were legal, more respectable people would be producing it... people who didn't drop out before the lecture on safety in highschool chem, or even better, people who have experience synthesizing dangerous substances in a lab in, say, college.

Since there would be no need to hide production, there would be no reason not to properly vent the production area. Unless, of course, you think meth manufacturers like breathing the fumes and blowing themselves up.
 
Quick solution for drug issues?

I am probably one of the more liberal posters here, and yet I don't know if decriminalization is the answer. Holland has had relaxed drug laws for some time, but I heard at least that they were backtracking on that.

Personally, I think this is a complex issue, and one for which there is no easy answer. I think that the quick answers like - they're all scum, hang 'em high, or, hey it's no biggie - forget all about it... are both wrong.

I certainly still favor stiff penalties for those in the distribution end of things.

On the level of the individual user, I think that there should be some effective mechanisms in place to try to get the person on the right track (and I don't count hard jail time as one of those), without sending them further down the tubes is best for everyone. Yet there still needs to be some kind of sliding scale of carrot and stick for them, to discourage recidivism.

I suppose the quite radical notion of completely decriminalizing drug use, and regulating, etc. is intriguing, simply because it's so different from where we are, and has some theoretical advantages. Any move like that would best be done as an experiment, at a local level... to get some idea of what would really happen. In this way, you get some kind of answer, but reduce your risk in case the policy is disastrous.
 
Consider that if meth production were legal, more respectable people would be producing it... people who didn't drop out before the lecture on safety in highschool chem, or even better, people who have experience synthesizing dangerous substances in a lab in, say, college.

Since there would be no need to hide production, there would be no reason not to properly vent the production area. Unless, of course, you think meth manufacturers like breathing the fumes and blowing themselves up.
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Quality chemists and decent production environments drive up the overhead and signicantly narrow the competition. I still don't see how this is going to make the prices crash...
 
Atw525,

But using that logic would defeat the argument for sudden crash of drug prices because everybody will be making thier own, wouldn't it?;)
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That wasn't my argument, and I don't agree with it.

The reason prices would drop is the same reason alcohol prices dropped after Repeal: Anheuser-Busch and Seagram's can make the stuff cheaper than any shadetree distiller, and delivery-truck drivers and route salesmen are cheaper to hire than crooked judges and machinegun-toting wiseguys.

Quality chemists and decent production environments drive up the overhead and signicantly narrow the competition. I still don't see how this is going to make the prices crash...
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It's Econ 101 stuff; Economies of scale, aggressive pricing, et cetera.

I was amused to note after my rhinoplasty many years ago that the medical-grade cocaine they packed my nose with was so dang cheap compared to the going street rate at the time. Of course, the pharmaceutical company didn't have to bribe a single cop or customs agent to get it into the surgeon's hands...
 
Certainly prices on illicit drugs would fall if they were legalized. Not only is there the production cost issue that Tamara raised, but there is also the fundamental law of economics, which is cost leverage by supply and demand. If you legalize drugs, supply and availability will increase, and prices will fall. Given the large and tangled web of issues associated with drug use, the question still remains, would that be beneficial?
 
Given the large and tangled web of issues associated with drug use, the question still remains, would that be beneficial?
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The lack of shootouts between Coors and Budweiser delivery drivers hints at one fringe benefit to society...
 
Addict1.jpg
 
Are we discussing the "legalization of drug use"?

Or

Are we discussing the "legalization of the drug trade"?

Or

Are we discussing all of the above?

Trip20 said:
...if the government decided to legalize the use of all drugs tomorrow - they would still not legalize the importation, manufacture, or distribution of the same.

Laws against the importation, manufacture, and distribution of illegal drugs (or legal drugs in the above scenerio) are what clog up our prisons and suck up tax payer dollars for the prosecution and incarceration for violation of these laws.
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It's important to differentiate because they are really two different topics.

The government can legalize the use of drugs for people such as pictured in the original post. But do you really think they'll legalize the drug trade for every chemistry student and trailer-park chemist to make quick $$$?

I seriously doubt it. If it were to happen it would be government controlled to the hilt, and we'd be wasting money on another division of government which we'd need to create to manage the entire mess. I think government is big enough as it is.

I'm all for letting people have their individual freedoms. If you want to commit slow suicide by using drugs - I can't stress enough how I'll cheer you on in your quest - good riddance.

There's more involved than individual choice here. I don't enjoy how the government regulates Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms ( :rolleyes: ) so I'm sure the "Drug Economic Welfare Division" would be just as much a sham.
 
I spent 11 years fighting "The War on Drugs" and saw no headway. Drug tax stamps, no-knock warrants, MP5s in the hands of guys not smart enough to run a pencil, Wal-Mart clerks snitching on people stocking up on sinus meds when they were on sale, children crying and cussing me as I hauled their parents away in cuffs, Hueys flying overhead, Meth-heads trying to kill me one day only to wind up crying and begging for help on my back porch another time, playing up for the news media, fathers shot by accident, government sales of drug-crime-forfeiture property where costs outweighted the proceeds, multi-million dollar lawsuits usually settled out of the public eye, abandonment of unglamorous, common-sense law enforcement practices, and a bunch of fellows in every little town and county playing SWAT/TAC team games with tools they don't train with enough.

Should meth production, sale and production be legalized? I do not know.

I do know people in our nation have a spiritual affliction that more laws will never cure. We value our property and entertainment more than our children.

There is a perfect law that frees I have read about in my holy book. I don't thrust it at anyone; I share it in a free marketplace of ideas. That perfect law is love of our creator and substainer and love of neighbor.
 
I highly doubt Bristol Meyers Squibb is going to suddenly decide to sell drugs for pennies per dose. Which means drug addicts will still need to get money for thier fix...
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The market would deal with this just fine if all non-patented or patent-expired drugs were unregulated by the FDA.

People who want certified purity or safety (and absolute safety cannot be certified) could buy from a company which allows a private, FDA-like certification agency to inspect production and test the product.

You'll be hard pressed to find an instance of a reputable businessperson selling anything as impure or downright dangerous as most street drugs these days. If you buy coke or heroin, god only knows what it's been cut with.

The situation could hardly get worse with legalization and deregulation. If you still want the "guaranteed" (why do you trust the FDA anyway?) purity drug companies provide, pay the premium. If you consider drugs as something more like sugar, beef, or corn rather than as mystical potions that have to be prepared just so, you can buy from your neighborhood's amateur chemist, as long as you trust her not to synthesize aspirin in a beaker that has heavy metal salt residue in it.
Trip20 said:
The government can legalize the use of drugs for people such as pictured in the original post. But do you really think they'll legalize the drug trade for every chemistry student and trailer-park chemist to make quick $$$?
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I don't think that with the government's current mindset it'll ever legalize use of all drugs, much less sale/transfer. So what? Are you saying we shouldn't be discussing this? If the mindset changes enough so that legalization of all drug use is a possibility, I think legalization of the drug trade would be possible as well.
 
The market would deal with this just fine if all non-patented or patent-expired drugs were unregulated by the FDA.
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- I agree that the market would deal with this, just look at the cost of generic drugs (all of which are off-patent), and single source drugs - again, that's the supply and demand thing.

- I disagree that the FDA is a problem because they are government run. I think that if anything, the largest current problem is ties between the FDA and industry, and that the FDA needs to be made more independent, not replaced by a private, much more closely associated business. This issue of the need for a greater independence was also the findings of a recent independent commission from the National Academy of Sciences.

- I work in the pharmaceutical industry, I've spoken with FDA reps, so I do know a little bit about it. Even though my industry would benefit by dissolution of the FDA and replacing them with private regulators, I think this would be a grave error, and the country would lose, big.
 
I was amused to note after my rhinoplasty many years ago that the medical-grade cocaine they packed my nose with was so dang cheap compared to the going street rate at the time. Of course, the pharmaceutical company didn't have to bribe a single cop or customs agent to get it into the surgeon's hands...

When I had my septoplasty done, the surgeon used a 5% solution of cocaine hydrochloride. I had a good valium-assisted chuckle when I saw that little brown bottle on the tray next to my head.
 
- I work in the pharmaceutical industry, I've spoken with FDA reps, so I do know a little bit about it. Even though my industry would benefit by dissolution of the FDA and replacing them with private regulators, I think this would be a grave error, and the country would lose, big.

Would we lose any bigger than the people who are dying waiting for illegal drugs, their benefit definitively proven in other nations, to be legalized here in the US by the FDA?

What is "the country" but a collection of individuals? What is "the good of society" as distinct from the good of any one of those individuals?
 
The lack of shootouts between Coors and Budweiser delivery drivers hints at one fringe benefit to society...
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Which killed more innocent people, shootouts by prohibition era gangsters or drunken drivers who can readily purchase their substance of choice legally?
 
tyme said:
So what? Are you saying we shouldn't be discussing this?
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No not at all just throwing out some food for thought.

Whether it involves the governments current mindset or a future mindset we wish them to have...

The history of government behavior regarding the control of commerce is not one that lends itself to what seems to be some individuals wishes regarding this topic.

Just pointing out that if the "legalize" anything involved in this thread - it would more than likely be so restricted it might as well be illegal... and will be treated legally illegal... :confused:

Again, just food for thought............ ;)
 
What can the FDA accomplish that a private entity couldn't? Consumer Reports and various other watchdog entities do a good job with a wide variety of non-consumables. The stamp of approval by the private monitoring agency would be contractually contingent on honesty. If it turns out that the manufacturer is playing circus shenanigans supplying fake samples to the testing agency, the legal remedy would be prosecution for fraud instead of violation of the Food and Drug Act. So what? How is that less effective?

I think there might be a role for mandatory testing of patented drugs, because monopolies are dangerous; if the patent holder refuses to get the drug certified by a third party, consumers may throw caution to the wind depending on what the drug allegedly does. When the law creates constructs like patents, the law has to deal with the consequences of those things by ensuring patent (and copyright) holders don't abuse the privileges they're given.

Trip20, I disagree that legalization of all drugs is possible while legalization of the drug trade isn't. If the former is possible, so is the latter. The kind of mindset it takes to legalize crack or PCP while forbidding anyone from supplying it is misguided and twisted... wait, what am I saying? That makes it very probable that congress would do something like that.
 
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