Faces of drug legalization
- Thread starter TheeBadOne
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I think most of the posters on this thread have a point! Why stop at drugs, though? Let's decriminalize murder, rape and pedophilia, too, since people kill, rape and molest children anyways, despite the fat that those activities are illegal. We can never win the war on murderers, rapists and pedophiles, because there will always be more murderers, rapists and pedophiles out there.... so why try?
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Marko Kloos
Inactive
ATW525,
nice try, but a rather clumsy use of reductio ad absurdum.
There are many people on this board who advocate the decriminalization of victimless crimes like drug use, mainly because the effects of drug prohibition are far more harmful to society than the drugs themselves.
That does not mean that the same people think that actual crimes (you know, where there are victims other than the perpetrator) should be decriminalized. There's quite a big difference between ingesting or snorting a substance that the government doesn't like, and killing or raping your fellow citizens...unless you want to claim that speeding or carry without a permit are morally and legally equivalent to rape or murder.
nice try, but a rather clumsy use of reductio ad absurdum.
There are many people on this board who advocate the decriminalization of victimless crimes like drug use, mainly because the effects of drug prohibition are far more harmful to society than the drugs themselves.
That does not mean that the same people think that actual crimes (you know, where there are victims other than the perpetrator) should be decriminalized. There's quite a big difference between ingesting or snorting a substance that the government doesn't like, and killing or raping your fellow citizens...unless you want to claim that speeding or carry without a permit are morally and legally equivalent to rape or murder.
I think most of the posters on this thread have a point! Why stop at drugs, though? Let's decriminalize murder, rape and pedophilia, too, since people kill, rape and molest children anyways, despite the fat that those activities are illegal.
I know some minarchists and anarchists that would heartily agree with you, as long as we also repealed the laws that prohibit children and young adults from carrying defensive firearms or other weapons until they're 21 years old, and prohibited wounded criminals or their heirs from suing the people who inflicted those wounds in self-defense.
Did you know that most rape victims are under 21? The linked study indicates that in the 12 states with sufficiently detailed data, 51% of female rape victims were under 18.
I know some minarchists and anarchists that would heartily agree with you, as long as we also repealed the laws that prohibit children and young adults from carrying defensive firearms or other weapons until they're 21 years old, and prohibited wounded criminals or their heirs from suing the people who inflicted those wounds in self-defense.
Did you know that most rape victims are under 21? The linked study indicates that in the 12 states with sufficiently detailed data, 51% of female rape victims were under 18.
Victimless until some junky or crackhead scumbag needs money for a fix.
And why, pray tell, do they need so much money for their fix? Why can't they just hold out a tin cup on a streetcorner or collect cans from the garbage?
Because prohibition has turned an agricultural product with an intrinsic value of pennies per dose (if that) into a precious commodity with a market price ten times its weight in gold, thickly lining the pockets of the dealers and distributors and driving addicts to desperate acts of crime in order to score enough money to feed their habit.
And why, pray tell, are there so many victims of junkies and crackheads? Because they congregate in the big cities, such as DC, Chicago, San Francisco, and Boston where armed self-defense is strictly banned, where the police tell you to just hand over your wallet to them and not make a big fuss.
And why, pray tell, do they need so much money for their fix? Why can't they just hold out a tin cup on a streetcorner or collect cans from the garbage?
Because prohibition has turned an agricultural product with an intrinsic value of pennies per dose (if that) into a precious commodity with a market price ten times its weight in gold, thickly lining the pockets of the dealers and distributors and driving addicts to desperate acts of crime in order to score enough money to feed their habit.
And why, pray tell, are there so many victims of junkies and crackheads? Because they congregate in the big cities, such as DC, Chicago, San Francisco, and Boston where armed self-defense is strictly banned, where the police tell you to just hand over your wallet to them and not make a big fuss.
Of course... because we just know everybody's going to sell crack, herion and meth for pennies per dose if it gets decriminalized. I know if I was drug dealer I would stop caring about making a profit once it was legal... I mean who cares the customer base is still just as addicted? Or perhaps we can do away with dealers and trust the pharmaceutical companies to handle the distribution and sale... after all, they never mark up the price of drugs.
Marko Kloos
Inactive
How many alcohol smugglers are making sky-high profits these days?
We're talking about simple economics here. If you made chocolate illegal tomorrow, and cracked down on it the same way the DEA goes after illegal drugs, your $2 chocolate bar would turn into $200 contraband inside of a decade. It doesn't mean you'll be able to sell that chocolate bar for $200 once the chocolate ban is repealed. The price is not inherent to the product, it is determined by the market, and if you make a high-demand item harder to get, you will drive up the price. The War on Drugs is taxpayer-funded price control for drug dealers, nothing more. It guarantees that the dealers and distributors can skim a 10000% profit margin on a plant byproduct that could be had for the price of a pack of tea if it was legal, and subject to FDA control and the open market.
What do you think would happen to the crime rate if a $200-a-day habit turned into a $2-a-day habit overnight? Do you know how many burglaries, muggings, and thefts are done by addicts trying to get enough cash for their next fix?
Also, you need to address the point that alcohol not only kills more people than all illegal drugs combined (by a very wide margin), but also the fact that there are far more alcoholics out there than illegal drug addicts (again by a very wide margin).
So why aren't you using the same arguments against booze, since it is so much more damaging to society than meth, crack, pot, and heroin combined?
Whether you believe in drug legalization or not......
It's probably more likely than not, that if the government decided to legalize the use of all drugs tomorrow - they would still not legalize the importation, manufacture, or distribution of the same.
Laws against the importation, manufacture, and distribution of illegal drugs (or legal drugs in the above scenerio) are what clog up our prisons and suck up tax payer dollars for the prosecution and incarceration for violation of these laws.
It's probably more likely than not, that if the government decided to legalize the use of all drugs tomorrow - they would still not legalize the importation, manufacture, or distribution of the same.
Laws against the importation, manufacture, and distribution of illegal drugs (or legal drugs in the above scenerio) are what clog up our prisons and suck up tax payer dollars for the prosecution and incarceration for violation of these laws.
NO amount of Legislation is going to change the Free Will of people.
People are responsible for decisons made excercising Free Will. From the beginning of "Man" - Man has sought ways to escape Realities, in the form of ingesting some substance, gambling , or sex .
The brain remembers what made it feel a certain way. The physical often is the tool that provides the brain this satisfaction, be it seeing a pretty picture, touching something, viewing porn, hot bubble bath, engaging in sex, or getting a pedicure.
Even in a "Controlled" environment - say a prison, inmates will gamble with pebbles or cigarettes, have sex, sing songs, lift weights, huff gas , cleaning fluids, make shivs to feel safe, make booze from fruit, tattoos...etc..
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Now I say/type the following because " I are one" . I took my last drink in March of '84. We have folks from all walks of life, from street bums that looked like hell, to prominent Drs, Lawyers and CEOs. Some hit lower bottoms than others.
The Law says one is not supposed to drive drunk, or drive ( drunk or sober) without a license, or practice medicine while "under the influence" , fly a plane "while under the influence". I am speaking of educated folks, even lawyers that knew or are perceived to know "law" - that did fly, drive practice Professsions .
One cannot Control people, places or things. Only the individual can change Their behavior.
Anything on earth can be used for Good or Bad.
-Gasoline powers my vehicle - a kid can huff gas and get brain damage.
-Matches light a candle - burn down a house.
-Sex can be intimate pleasure, a symbol of emotion, to have kids - or brutal symbol of Control in a rape.
-Nuclear , make a bomb, provide power, or medicine.
-Hammers drive nails to build homes - or bash in the head of someone.
-Icepicks chip ice - or kill folks
.
.
.
etc.
Free will, personal responsibilty of one's personal choices are never going to be legislated one way or another.
People are responsible for decisons made excercising Free Will. From the beginning of "Man" - Man has sought ways to escape Realities, in the form of ingesting some substance, gambling , or sex .
The brain remembers what made it feel a certain way. The physical often is the tool that provides the brain this satisfaction, be it seeing a pretty picture, touching something, viewing porn, hot bubble bath, engaging in sex, or getting a pedicure.
Even in a "Controlled" environment - say a prison, inmates will gamble with pebbles or cigarettes, have sex, sing songs, lift weights, huff gas , cleaning fluids, make shivs to feel safe, make booze from fruit, tattoos...etc..
---
Now I say/type the following because " I are one" . I took my last drink in March of '84. We have folks from all walks of life, from street bums that looked like hell, to prominent Drs, Lawyers and CEOs. Some hit lower bottoms than others.
The Law says one is not supposed to drive drunk, or drive ( drunk or sober) without a license, or practice medicine while "under the influence" , fly a plane "while under the influence". I am speaking of educated folks, even lawyers that knew or are perceived to know "law" - that did fly, drive practice Professsions .
One cannot Control people, places or things. Only the individual can change Their behavior.
Anything on earth can be used for Good or Bad.
-Gasoline powers my vehicle - a kid can huff gas and get brain damage.
-Matches light a candle - burn down a house.
-Sex can be intimate pleasure, a symbol of emotion, to have kids - or brutal symbol of Control in a rape.
-Nuclear , make a bomb, provide power, or medicine.
-Hammers drive nails to build homes - or bash in the head of someone.
-Icepicks chip ice - or kill folks
.
.
.
etc.
Free will, personal responsibilty of one's personal choices are never going to be legislated one way or another.
Edward429451
Moderator
What good can meth be used for?
Unlike chocolate, junkies need herion... crackheads need crack. With alcohol, sure there are people who need alcohol (heck, I'm related to few of them). I don't have statistics and figures, but from my personal observations the ratio of people need alcohol compared to the people who drink alcohol is pretty low.... especially compared to the ratio of people who need hard drugs, compared to people who use hard drugs. Let's face it, I don't recall ever meeting anyone who shoots up socially on semi-regular basis and who could go without if the price was too high.
Look at cigarettes... they have a very high addiction rate among thier users, and as the price continues to sky rocket, people continue to pay.
Marijuana is the only drug who's price is likely to go down significantly through decriminalization, and quite frankly I don't see potheads as a menace to society regardless of how much they have to pay for thier drug of choice... it's just not the same level of addiction involved. I would concede that pot smoking is a victimless crime, so in that instance I say let them sit around and fry thier braincells for all I care... being stupid shouldn't be a crime.
Look at cigarettes... they have a very high addiction rate among thier users, and as the price continues to sky rocket, people continue to pay.
Marijuana is the only drug who's price is likely to go down significantly through decriminalization, and quite frankly I don't see potheads as a menace to society regardless of how much they have to pay for thier drug of choice... it's just not the same level of addiction involved. I would concede that pot smoking is a victimless crime, so in that instance I say let them sit around and fry thier braincells for all I care... being stupid shouldn't be a crime.
Marko Kloos
Inactive
Now ask yourself what impact it would have on society if you made tobacco products illegal, and treated tobacco plants like pot plants. All the nicotine addicts in the country would have to find ways to finance a habit that turned from a $5 pack-a-day to a $300 pack-a-day. There would be a new way for a new underworld to make obscene profits on clandestine tobacco import and cultivation, and there'd be a whole new wave of substance-related turf wars and "acquisition crime". Think your logic through, and read up on the history of Prohibition, and the effects it had on crime in this country.
Well, the military uses amphetamine to keep soldiers and pilots awake for long periods of time...the Air Force "go" pills, for example.
In the 1950s and 1960s, it was prescribed for a wide variety of conditions. It's still in use for weight control, for example.
However, it is always fallacious to look at the social utility of a substance or object when determining whether to make it illegal or not.
In the same vein, you could ask "What good can alcohol be used for?", and if you can answer that question, you have an answer for yours as well.
What I said was :
take note of the word "or " if you please.
Perceptions - To the meth maker - there is the lure of easy money, to the user there is that escape from reality. Objective Reality.
That hammer that bashes in a head, might be the 16 y/o girl fighting off a rapist, or the stone cold sober sociopath that gets satisfaction from taking a life.
I have seen the crack heads, meth heads, gas huffers, drunks, rape victims, abused signifigant others and such. Living life on life's terms is not always a pretty picture.
The Constitution never said we were promised a pretty picture. It does give one Freedoms, now what an individual chooses to with these Freedoms are his choice.
We concern ourselves with Prohibition of "substances" such as meth. What scares me are all the folks that took an oath of office to defend against all enemies foreign and domestic and are not doing so.
If just some of the energies spent of the War on "[]" were applied to those that swore to defend and do not - methinks a lot of problems would no longer exist.
My point isn't how much the price will go up if cigarettes where illegal, but that people will continue to pay the prices because for many they have no choice.
My question is why would the price of herion, crack and meth go down by any significant amount if they were legal? If people are already willing to pay the current prices, who in thier right mind would sell the drugs for less? When addiction is involved it's not a typical supply and demand situation anymore.... people need thier drugs and will pay the prices that are set for them, even if they have to steal, rob and murder to do so.
As a drug dealer, you couldn't set prices based only on what buyers would pay. Competition drives down prices whether or not there's a change in the demand side of the market. Since there are plenty of chemists and horticulturists who would love to make a small fraction of what drug syndicate leaders make, it's pretty clear that if drugs were legalized, the price of drugs would crash... even if you consider that the amateur chemist/horticulturist would have more overhead due to less efficient production.ATW525 said:
Law enforcement thins and scares the herd such that only paranoid, intelligent, borderline psychopaths end up in a position to control a drug distribution network. Drug dealers have to be more loyal and more trustworthy than employees in most other industries. Those qualities demand a salary premium. Then there are quite a number of enforcers and other "employees" hired simply to combat LE efforts and to do a little supply-side herd thinning as well. Combined with the expected loss of a good percentage of product due to drug interdiction, you have a significant mark-up resulting from LE activity alone, above and beyond any price-fixing by the drug monopoly in a particular region.
Edward429451,
Until legal amphetamines were criminalized, it was mostly used to help write term papers at the last minute.
The stuff cooked up in trailers nowadays bears about as much relationship to the clean, pharmaceutical speed that used to be popular among students, third-shift workers, and truckers as wood alcohol or bathtub hooch bears to Glenmorrangie or Guinness.
Plus, there's the added thrill of possibly getting shot on some street corner, which rarely happened to people who got their docs to write them a scrip for "diet pills"...
Until legal amphetamines were criminalized, it was mostly used to help write term papers at the last minute.
The stuff cooked up in trailers nowadays bears about as much relationship to the clean, pharmaceutical speed that used to be popular among students, third-shift workers, and truckers as wood alcohol or bathtub hooch bears to Glenmorrangie or Guinness.
Plus, there's the added thrill of possibly getting shot on some street corner, which rarely happened to people who got their docs to write them a scrip for "diet pills"...
Edward429451
Moderator
I'm not trying to stir you guys up, just trying to understand a little better.
Meth is poison and sucks the life right out of you, look at the pics.
There was a thread once (might've been on THR) about how far is reasonable for gun control. The general consensus was that society's people should probably not own nuclear bombs. Too dangerous. Isn't meth the nuclear bomb of drugs? A specialty substance.
In the same way some dont catagorize pot with drugs (agree), I submit meth the same way (opposite end of the spectrum). What the hell is recreational about meth / staying up for days or weeks at a time? I can see it (kind of) militarily. Watching for the enemy. Short term use.
Weight loss? C'mon. Take a dangerous specialty substance and give it to someone who has already shown themselves to be undisciplined? Can't see it.
Alchohol? Good for running cars? (I'm no drinker) and small amounts for certain medical benefits / health.
Maybe I am being fallacious by trying to find a societal benefit for it. I've only heard one good use for it so far.
Maybe I'm missing something and just don't get it. I'm a skinny, non drinker, non-soldier, non-doctor, love my sleep kind of guy. It doesn't hurt my liberty or feelings to not be able to own a nuclear bomb...
(I can't believe I'm more or less siding with the LEO's on this. Whoa.)
Meth is poison and sucks the life right out of you, look at the pics.
There was a thread once (might've been on THR) about how far is reasonable for gun control. The general consensus was that society's people should probably not own nuclear bombs. Too dangerous. Isn't meth the nuclear bomb of drugs? A specialty substance.
In the same way some dont catagorize pot with drugs (agree), I submit meth the same way (opposite end of the spectrum). What the hell is recreational about meth / staying up for days or weeks at a time? I can see it (kind of) militarily. Watching for the enemy. Short term use.
Weight loss? C'mon. Take a dangerous specialty substance and give it to someone who has already shown themselves to be undisciplined? Can't see it.
Alchohol? Good for running cars? (I'm no drinker) and small amounts for certain medical benefits / health.
Maybe I am being fallacious by trying to find a societal benefit for it. I've only heard one good use for it so far.
Maybe I'm missing something and just don't get it. I'm a skinny, non drinker, non-soldier, non-doctor, love my sleep kind of guy. It doesn't hurt my liberty or feelings to not be able to own a nuclear bomb...
(I can't believe I'm more or less siding with the LEO's on this. Whoa.)
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