Ethics of Varmint Hunting

lc, I fully understand your concern, but until you are the Big Boss we're gonna be living where we want to and having as many kids as we want to and we'll continue to have a growing population and occupy more of the land.

People's individual attitudes, manners, morals and mores really don't have all that much to do with the problems with interactions with wildlife. On a societal basis, yeah.

Cities grow. The greater Houston area along I-10 is now fifty miles across. forty years ago it was around twenty miles.

For all that, the populations of deer and wild turkey are greater now than at any time in history. habitat that will support those species also supports all those non-game critters.

I say societal: You can't get people to understand that feral housecats kill many tens of millions of songbirds every year. "I love poo-tats!" wins out over buntings and cardinals. The bird kill from antenna towers is much less, although appreciable. You have a cell phone? You're a bird killer. Watch TV? You're a bird killer. Want "renewable energy" in the form of wind generators? You're a bird killer.

Is it allowed for people to raise crops? Raise livestock? Make enough money to lay by for the future, eat food, have clothing, drive a car and pay school taxes? There's no socialistic subsidy for losses to pests and predation...

I've been "messing around" in this Great Outdoors for some 65 years. I spent four years in the 1970s brain-picking on the "bug and bunny boys", the wildlife biologists, as part of my professional work. I like to think I have a fair amount of understanding of eco-systems, animal behavior and people's interactions.

:), Art
 
vermin????

Never argue with <those who don't know the facts>

Its sunny and nice out for a change, think I will go see how this new 223 works on ground squirrels;)
 
This is The Firing Line. We have standards of behavior, and they apply to our comments to an Ingrid Newkirk as well as to "normal" members.

Art
 
lc,
I to, am a lover of nature, and do what I can to help save as much of it as I can. I have helped to raise several orphaned deer, and several other animals that have been hurt or orphaned.
I don't beleive in destroying animals just for the simplicity of it, but we must realize that left unchecked, the population of certain species, would eventually take over.
The problem isn't as easy as just bringing in natural predators, as they to, become a problem to humans down the line.
Australia has had problems for years because of that type of thinking.

I can't explain, nor do I except the blame for, my ancestors thinking and actions.
I have no problems with the buffalo, people of color, or the American Indian.
But I don't think it should be my burden to bare.
Like Art said, if I were the top dog , things might have been different, but since I'm not, I just try to do the best I can, and try not to repeat mistakes made by my ancestors.
 
Please understand: My point IS NOT that incidental killing or killing for food is wrong. If you build a home, it requires cutting trees, plowing over animals habitat, etc. This is impossible to avoid. If you eat anything, you're incidentally harming or killing other creatures or their food supply. Do I directly or indirectly kill creatures. Of course. We all do by our existence. I understand this and am not a naive bleeding heart...


MY PRIMARY point is that killing for the pure thrill of killing, even under the guise of 'population control' is demented and wrong, plain and simple. If you really enjoy inflicting pain, suffering & loss on some other living creature, then there is something wrong with your soul. If population control is your motiviatio, there are ethical ways to let nature handle it by small changes in human behavior. We're pretty creative and smart creatures and I find it remarkable that the answer to a "vermin" problem is simply to kill 'em. I give people more credit than that as far as ingenuity.
 
leadcounsel said:
MY PRIMARY point is that killing for the pure thrill of killing, even under the guise of 'population control' is demented and wrong, plain and simple.
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That might actually mean something if it were in fact a GUISE as you keep stating. It's not a guise at all. It is population control, and in some cases, it's an attempt to completely erradicate.
 
MY PRIMARY point is that killing for the pure thrill of killing, even under the guise of 'population control' is demented and wrong, plain and simple. If you really enjoy inflicting pain, suffering & loss on some other living creature, then there is something wrong with your soul. If population control is your motiviatio, there are ethical ways to let nature handle it by small changes in human behavior. We're pretty creative and smart creatures and I find it remarkable that the answer to a "vermin" problem is simply to kill 'em. I give people more credit than that as far as ingenuity.
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I shoot varmints. A lot. I have hunted deer ( dont like it, I enjoy seeing deer in the wild) Chamois ( dont like it, magic creatures, but perhaps unsurprisingly an enviromental disaster here), Asian Buffalo in Australia, pigs, kangaroos, wallabies, birds etc etc, and not once have I ever pulled a trigger and got a kick out of the kill. I have felt good as my skills have been up to the task, and always feel bad when any wounded animal gets away. I totally fail to see how the thrill of killing has anything to do with it.

Say I shoot one deer. How is that any different from taking out my LTR and shooting 50 rabbits in an afternoon?
 
leadcounsel, ignorance is curable; stupidity is forever. You don't come across as stupid, but you do come across as one who's not spent much time in dealing with the whole issue of predators and with pestiferous animals.

Bits and pieces of example: Along the Grand Canyon are feral burros, left from the 1800s and early 1900s. To remove them without harm, via capture and airlift via helicopter, costs some 30,000 Park Service Budget dollars per EACH. Or they can be shot as coyote, lion and buzzard food. Several per day, by a guy getting paid some $30K a year. There is no shortage of burros in the U.S. You can buy all you want for a couple of hundred bucks apiece.

Why am I supposed to care if the hired gun enjoys his work? Out of 300 million people, we know that at least one isn't holding up Mom'n'Pop gas stations.

Go out to some area where feral hogs have gotten established. Look at the damage they cause to pastures and fields. They can have two to three litters per year, with up to a dozen piglets per litter. How but by killing as well as trapping can you deal with them? For a farmer, if he traps, that takes time away from his remunerative work. Do you do hard physical labor for no pay? But the farmer can let a recreational shooter come in and shoot hogs--and he certainly doesn't care one iota if it's enjoyable pleasure or not.

Prairie dogs: I don't buy into the argument about a cow stepping into a PD hole and breaking a leg. Even horses aren't usuallly that stupid. I've owned both cattle and horse in country with various varmint burrows. Never had that problem. BUT: You can figure that roughly one-third of the land area that PDs move into won't have anything growing on it. That's hard on the billfold if you're trying to raise alfalfa.

Why am I supposed to care if somebody gets his jollies from protecting crops?

And nowhere have you read a post where anybody is talking about total eradication. Population control is the issue.

We have a pretty effective body of law established about control of predators and pests. It is not my business, it is not your business, about the emotional attitudes of those who do the work. And again, nobody expects anything near total eradication.

Art
 
Brenden says

I was taught (under threat of harsh penalties) that I should never shoot anything unless I was prepared to eat it. Because of this, "varmint" hunting has always seemed somewhat wasteful and distasteful to me. Mabey I'm just ornery because I'm missing out on some entertaining shooting. Anyway, this is a challenge to all you varmint hunters out there. Tell me why it's OK.
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I think you would have to have been raised watching Bambi, to even ask such a question. :)
 
Art said:
And nowhere have you read a post where anybody is talking about total eradication.
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For the record, Art, my post #47 spoke of eradication. To clarify my comment; I was speaking of those situations such as in New Zealand, whereby the animal (rabbit) was introduced in to the bionetwork.

Again, not eradication from the face of the earth, but elimination from a land that cannot balance the impact brought on by the animal.
 
LC---I doubt that anyone on this forum would label you as UnAmerican. But, I for one am tired of hearing that old trash of how we have been responsible for all the ailments that encompass mankind......I did not shoot any Native Americans, I did not own any Slaves, I am a REDNECK if you are only referring to the location I live in. I am a southerner and proud of it. And by the tone of your postings I would take it that you are talking about only WASPS....IMHO
 
:) From the standpoint of sound environmental practice/management, and healthy ecosystems: An introduced non-native pest SHOULD be eradicated. The context, however, had to do with such as coyotes and other animals here in the U.S.

Here, we have the Africanized honey bee, the walking catfish, fire ants, nutria and feral cats. And other such...

Art
 
Here all this talk and i thought the ethics of PD hunting was close all gates, pick up all brass and pop cans, leave the ranchers wife alone, and leave the rancher a case of beer. I have never had any trouble on the trips these rules were all followed
 
OK leadcounsel I'll bring the 11,000 prarie dogs that currently infest the pastures not far from my dads farm and let them live in your front yard yes? they destroy valuble pastureland, create a dangerous area for cattel, horses and humans to move in and oh did i mention THEY CARRY THE PLAGUE? Geez man figue it out. Go look in the dictonary and look up vermin. Wait ill do it for you.

"Vermin is a pejorative term given to animals which are considered by users of the word to be pests or nuisances, most associated with the carrying of disease. Disease-carrying rodents and insects are the usual case but the term is also applied to larger animals, on the basis that they exist out of balance with a desired environment, consuming excessive resources. Pigeons, which have been widely introduced in urban environments, may be considered vermin, or, pejoratively, "flying rats."
-Wikipedia

IF this doesnt answer your question as to why they are OFFICIALY calssed as varmints or vermin (the two terms are interchangeable) You dont understand plain old english.

SW
 
Varmit holes in the ground can cause cattle to step into the holes and break thier legs. I would much rather kill a few ground hogs than worry about the livestock. Plus I about crashed the tractor one time when I hit one of those big holes in the hay field. If I can I usually give the dead ground hogs to a man that eats them. Now crows are a different story. I don't eat crow.
Crows are varmits and have no real purpose other than to eat the corn in the garden. When the bird flu hits, those crows will be the first ones to carry it to your house.
 
"Varmit holes in the ground can cause cattle to step into the holes and break thier legs."

Y'know, I've read this on the Internet everytime the subject of prairie dogs comes up; now, groundhogs.

Maybeso our family raised smarter cows? Or cows with better vision? Lord knows we had plenty of critter burrows on the Cuero ranch and the Austin ranch, during my lifetime, not to mention the old folks' ranches.

No such busted legs.

I'll grant you that going around a tall-grass pasture on a tractor, shredding, can lead to interesting adventures. At least as long as you don't fall toward the rear, anyway. :)

ARt
 
I haven't read through all of this post, but how is shooting squirrels justified? Somehow I think if they are stealing from you're bird feeder you can afford the extra feed, over killing an endless stream of them.
 
I wouldn't consider squirrels a varmint but they can certainly be a nuisance. You'd be suprised how much bird feed a squirrel can eat, especially after he invites all his friends over.
My grandmother was an avid bird watcher. One of the things I used to do for her was fill her bird feeders. She had a hummingbird feeder by her kitchen window that squirrels totally destroyed. She had a glass sided feeder out in the middle of the yard that squirrels would empty daily. I bought a squirrel shield so they couldn't climb up the pole. They started dropping off the trees onto the top of the bird house. I moved the feeder out into the middle of the yard, away from any trees. This worked for a couple of weeks until one crazy, skydiving squirrel took about a 20 yard leap, landed on the feeder, shattered the glass and in the process, killed himself. Darwin at his finest.
My grandmother wouldn't hear of me shooting the squirrels. One day, during squirrel season, I knew she was going grocery shopping. Silence of the squirrels. This became a once a year thing until she passed.
Squirrel and pastry, yum. Squirrel stew is pretty good, too. They get nice and fat eating bird feed, btw.
 
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