allenomics
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In a life and death situation, the person who has firearms training and a loaded gun has a better chance of surviving. Enough said?
Ethics of Concealed Carry
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Ethics of concealed carry
When I was 21, I was commissioned as a deputy sheriff. I worked in the reserves for 6 years until I was hired full time. I worked full time for another 24 years. I had that talk with myself the first day. I decided if I wanted to do the job I had always dreamed about, I had to be able to use that firearm to save my life, or someone else. I had to take that gun out of it's holster several times during those 24 years, besides the quarterly range. I never shot it at anything but a paper target, but I know if I had to, I could. Knowing the real world, from a cop's perspective, I wanted my wife to carry a pistol in the car, and know how to use it. I asked her to think and decide if she could kill someone, other wise they would take it away from her and use it on her. After several weeks, she said she could not, so I got her pepper spray. Everyone who carries a firearm must make the decision before carrying it. It is a very personal decision, and no one should be judged for making it differently than we did.
When I was 21, I was commissioned as a deputy sheriff. I worked in the reserves for 6 years until I was hired full time. I worked full time for another 24 years. I had that talk with myself the first day. I decided if I wanted to do the job I had always dreamed about, I had to be able to use that firearm to save my life, or someone else. I had to take that gun out of it's holster several times during those 24 years, besides the quarterly range. I never shot it at anything but a paper target, but I know if I had to, I could. Knowing the real world, from a cop's perspective, I wanted my wife to carry a pistol in the car, and know how to use it. I asked her to think and decide if she could kill someone, other wise they would take it away from her and use it on her. After several weeks, she said she could not, so I got her pepper spray. Everyone who carries a firearm must make the decision before carrying it. It is a very personal decision, and no one should be judged for making it differently than we did.
Deciding whether or not to carry a gun is an individual decision. I don't feel that it's for you (the OP) to try to convince your uncle that he needs to carry a gun. If he isn't comfortable with the idea then it's plain and simple to me that he shouldn't carry a gun.
Carrying a gun is requires discipline and a great sense of responsibility. The responsibility that I speak of is in addition to knowing the laws of where and when to carry and/or shoot in defense. You are responsible for obtaining proper self-defense training and practicing. You are responsible to yourself for mentally committing to properly use the tool that you carry if/when your life is being threatened by someone intending to do serious bodily harm - even if that means killing a person. You are responsible for always keeping your firearm secure and out of reach from others. You are responsible for always checking the chamber before handling the firearm and deciding whether to carry the firearm with a round chambered or not.
The discipline I speak of consists of training to shoot with accuracy, consistancy, rapid yet safe deployment of the firearm, and care of the firearm.
To sum it up, there is quite a bit of baggage that comes with deciding to conceal carry a firearm. I am of the opinion that unless someone comes to the decision to carry a gun for reasons personal to them, that no person should try to convince another that they must carry a gun.
Carrying a gun is requires discipline and a great sense of responsibility. The responsibility that I speak of is in addition to knowing the laws of where and when to carry and/or shoot in defense. You are responsible for obtaining proper self-defense training and practicing. You are responsible to yourself for mentally committing to properly use the tool that you carry if/when your life is being threatened by someone intending to do serious bodily harm - even if that means killing a person. You are responsible for always keeping your firearm secure and out of reach from others. You are responsible for always checking the chamber before handling the firearm and deciding whether to carry the firearm with a round chambered or not.
The discipline I speak of consists of training to shoot with accuracy, consistancy, rapid yet safe deployment of the firearm, and care of the firearm.
To sum it up, there is quite a bit of baggage that comes with deciding to conceal carry a firearm. I am of the opinion that unless someone comes to the decision to carry a gun for reasons personal to them, that no person should try to convince another that they must carry a gun.
riggins_83
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Simple for me:
Me: Guy with a wife who I need to support and take care of
BG: Person crazy enough to murder a stranger or rob them to support a drug habbit, etc.
It's them or me. I'd rather have to live and pray past causing a death than have my wife hoping the PD catches the guy who killed me.
Me: Guy with a wife who I need to support and take care of
BG: Person crazy enough to murder a stranger or rob them to support a drug habbit, etc.
It's them or me. I'd rather have to live and pray past causing a death than have my wife hoping the PD catches the guy who killed me.
Frank Ettin
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From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
"2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. 'The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not.'"
"2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:..."
"2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. 'The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not.'"
"2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:..."
Baba Louie
New member
Great question and responses in the thread as I think/hope most here hold life sacred. I agree with those who wrote, the object is not to kill but to stop an aggressor from using lethal force against me or mine. Plain and simple. There are those who do not hold life sacred and would, in an instant take an innocent life. Happens every day somewhere. I am not one of those, will never be one of those and would like to die in my bed as an old man of natural causes.
Downside is I'll more than likely be reacting to that aggressor's action and be behind the power curve to begin with. Thus, practice, practice and maybe some more practice would seem to be prudent, hoping I'll never need the skillset or cross that particular bridge.
The old adage, "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it" rings true for several things (e.g., life saving first aid, fire extinguisher, etc).
Like others, I do find that carrying makes me look at issues and places with an eye to avoid with somewhat of a different level of situational awareness, than, say, my mother or sisters, who have told me more than once they could never, under any circumstances, utilize a firearm for their own self preservation or that of their family. (sad that... perhaps) Both have been in situations where they were scared witless yet hold fast to their belief. They did not, could not believe me when I told them of Warren v. DC and Gonzales v. Castle Rock. Such is life.
Chances are, whatever handgun I carry will never be needed.
I hope.
YMMV
Downside is I'll more than likely be reacting to that aggressor's action and be behind the power curve to begin with. Thus, practice, practice and maybe some more practice would seem to be prudent, hoping I'll never need the skillset or cross that particular bridge.
The old adage, "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it" rings true for several things (e.g., life saving first aid, fire extinguisher, etc).
Like others, I do find that carrying makes me look at issues and places with an eye to avoid with somewhat of a different level of situational awareness, than, say, my mother or sisters, who have told me more than once they could never, under any circumstances, utilize a firearm for their own self preservation or that of their family. (sad that... perhaps) Both have been in situations where they were scared witless yet hold fast to their belief. They did not, could not believe me when I told them of Warren v. DC and Gonzales v. Castle Rock. Such is life.
Chances are, whatever handgun I carry will never be needed.
I hope.
YMMV
imthegrumpyone
New member
To me it's vary simple, if you are not ready to stop the threat, and as far as I'm concerned that means kill. You should reconsider carrying. It's a change of life style, an extreme attitude adjustment. As I see it, it is one
hell of a decision to make to carry for protection of your love ones, yourself, your property, an to defend others in "deadly a harms way" situations. I refuse to stick my head in the sand and hope it passes by. Everyday life's a reality check, life is to short, and to have it cut shorter by some scum is even worse, are jails are full of your tax money benefactors, will we ever learn? Your government won't protect you, your local law can't, that only leaves "you"
hell of a decision to make to carry for protection of your love ones, yourself, your property, an to defend others in "deadly a harms way" situations. I refuse to stick my head in the sand and hope it passes by. Everyday life's a reality check, life is to short, and to have it cut shorter by some scum is even worse, are jails are full of your tax money benefactors, will we ever learn? Your government won't protect you, your local law can't, that only leaves "you"
The reason I carry is to protect my own life and the lives of my Wife and my young daughter. The only way I would use it is if they or I were in mortal danger. I don't see the ethical question involved in defending the lives of those I love. Will I argue that it was an ethical decision that I stood buy and watched my loved ones murdered or severely injured and did nothing because I didn't have the tools to defend them? Not likely. I've carried daily since 2004. My family is the most important thing in the world to me. It baffles me that some people will carry a weapon if they travel with money or jewels but the not when they travel with their loved ones.
One day when I was gassing up my car I noticed the lady behind me left her infant in the car and went inside to pay for her gas and buy some other things. I took my time gassing up so I could keep an eye on the little one until she came back. When I went inside the cashier said the lady made a comment that she thought it was creepy that I kept looking at her baby. I said, "I think its pretty creepy to leave your baby in the car alone with no one watching her. I wonder if she had $1000 cash in her purse if she would have left it on her seat unattended and with her doors unlocked. I doubt she would have, I guess her baby isn't worth as much to her." The point being that I believe ethically that we have a duty to defend those that we love. You have to accept there is evil in the world and people that would do you harm. I pray I can avoid them but like Colonel Jeff Cooper would say, "I would like very much to ensure—and in some cases I have—that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy."
One day when I was gassing up my car I noticed the lady behind me left her infant in the car and went inside to pay for her gas and buy some other things. I took my time gassing up so I could keep an eye on the little one until she came back. When I went inside the cashier said the lady made a comment that she thought it was creepy that I kept looking at her baby. I said, "I think its pretty creepy to leave your baby in the car alone with no one watching her. I wonder if she had $1000 cash in her purse if she would have left it on her seat unattended and with her doors unlocked. I doubt she would have, I guess her baby isn't worth as much to her." The point being that I believe ethically that we have a duty to defend those that we love. You have to accept there is evil in the world and people that would do you harm. I pray I can avoid them but like Colonel Jeff Cooper would say, "I would like very much to ensure—and in some cases I have—that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy."
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When I was 23, I was much more likely to get into a situation where I would need a gun, but probably I would have been hesitant to shoot. Now I'm 52 and much less likely to ever get into a situation where I would need one, but I still carry one every day and would be much more likely to shoot at a threat.
Only advice I can give you, don't carry a gun when you are drinking, goofing off, hitting on another guy's woman, partying or doing any kind of anti-social or reckless behaviour.
Only advice I can give you, don't carry a gun when you are drinking, goofing off, hitting on another guy's woman, partying or doing any kind of anti-social or reckless behaviour.
I'm sure at 23 you were able to run away from or fight a 52 year old. Things change over time. When I was when I was 27 i had gotten out of the Marine Corps, I was a black belt in TaeKwonDo, and I fought actively in competitions. I was also 180 lbs. Now I'm 38, haven't trained in TKD for years, but I do lift weights and keep in decent shape but its not easy with three kids. I'm now 250 lbs. I'm not outrunning too many threats and my TKD skills have definitely declined. I wouldn't have thought of carrying when I was 27, now I don't leave home without it.
inSight-NEO
New member
This goes beyond conceal carry and enters the realm of home defense as well. Frankly, I believe anyone on this earth has the right to defend his/her own life and certainly the lives of loved ones. Ethics? Such things disappear when you are confronted with either a). defend yourself/loved ones against violence or b). watch them die or be harmed by another.
How do I deal with it? I make sure that I maintain awareness of what constitutes/justifies a violent/deadly response vs. a non-violent response. If I am forced to take a life in order to protect mine or my loved ones, then I will do so justifiably...within the law and I would feel no liability in doing so. The cost of inaction, in this extreme case, far outweighs the price I would pay for inaction. Herein lies my peace.
When it comes to defending my life or the lives of loved ones against violence/death, I do not tend to think in terms of what is ethical. Rather, I tend to think in terms of what is justifiable. Yes, taking another life is no small matter and can come at a great cost. But, in the case of HD or PD, the cost of not doing anything could be much, much higher. Which bears more weight? There is simply no getting past this problem.
If one questions whether or not he/she can take another life while defending another, then this individual should not own a firearm for HD or PD...period.
How do I deal with it? I make sure that I maintain awareness of what constitutes/justifies a violent/deadly response vs. a non-violent response. If I am forced to take a life in order to protect mine or my loved ones, then I will do so justifiably...within the law and I would feel no liability in doing so. The cost of inaction, in this extreme case, far outweighs the price I would pay for inaction. Herein lies my peace.
When it comes to defending my life or the lives of loved ones against violence/death, I do not tend to think in terms of what is ethical. Rather, I tend to think in terms of what is justifiable. Yes, taking another life is no small matter and can come at a great cost. But, in the case of HD or PD, the cost of not doing anything could be much, much higher. Which bears more weight? There is simply no getting past this problem.
If one questions whether or not he/she can take another life while defending another, then this individual should not own a firearm for HD or PD...period.
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Seriously...??? There are people here that would utilize their weapon to save their or a loved one's life and then they fear they'll walk around feeling "guilty" afterwards??? Seriously? PTSD??? Come on. You protected yourself/your family. You did the RIGHT thing. If you truly think you'll be traumatized afterwards, maybe you shouldn't be carrying. Carry a cell phone instead.
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Wow, that is quite possible one of the most childish things I've every seen posted on this forum. You have obviously never been in the situation to have another man in your sights. When I was in the Marine Corps I was in two situations where I was nearly called upon to use deadly force. I remember BOTH situations vividly like there happened yesterday and its been nearly 20 years. Thankfully both situations were resolved without pulling the trigger because I know the result of that would also be seared into my memories. I have no desire to cause the death of another human and I would feel deep remorse if I was called upon to do so. I would also not hesitate in the least to do whatever was necessary to protect myself or my family. To say it would make you happy to do it is foolish to say the least.
I have to agree with Jon_in_wv here.
Taking the life of another human being is not a trivial exercise. While in the immediate aftermath you may be giddy and happy that your survived; in the short term you may be proud that your training and foresight worked out and even if you are sure you did the right thing... the long term is that you will always wonder if it was absolutely necessary.
This even happens in combat. Some guys find it easier after their first known kill. Some find it gets easier after the 3rd or 5th kill. Some are never easy with it in the long run. And it's not any easier at 20,000 ft than it is a ground level.
You wonder what the other person's life was like. You wonder why he wanted to harm you so bad. Did he have children? Would they grow up "bad kids" without a father? Who loved him and who did he love? Was he a person worth knowing with grand ambitions and dreams?
Even the guy who steps out of the shadows in a car park carrying a large knife demanding your wallet and car keys gets this kind of wondering. What happened to him that caused him to be that threatening? Was this his first try or just his last in a long career? Did someone push him into desperation or was it his own fault?
We all want to believe, on one hand, that violent criminal acts are perpetrated by evil people who deserve to to put down like rabid dogs. On the other hand, we also want to believe that people don't act this way out of choice, but are driven to them in despair or desperation. We want to understand if it's a "rabid dog" deserving of being put down or some poor soul who is probably relieved of his own suffering.
Some of you will say it doesn't matter one whit if he was a "rabid dog" or some loser always making bad choices or "forced" into crime to supply his drug habit or pay off his bookie. To some extent, that may be true. But it's only natural to want reassurance that taking his life was the right thing to do.
Taking the life of another human being is not a trivial exercise. While in the immediate aftermath you may be giddy and happy that your survived; in the short term you may be proud that your training and foresight worked out and even if you are sure you did the right thing... the long term is that you will always wonder if it was absolutely necessary.
This even happens in combat. Some guys find it easier after their first known kill. Some find it gets easier after the 3rd or 5th kill. Some are never easy with it in the long run. And it's not any easier at 20,000 ft than it is a ground level.
You wonder what the other person's life was like. You wonder why he wanted to harm you so bad. Did he have children? Would they grow up "bad kids" without a father? Who loved him and who did he love? Was he a person worth knowing with grand ambitions and dreams?
Even the guy who steps out of the shadows in a car park carrying a large knife demanding your wallet and car keys gets this kind of wondering. What happened to him that caused him to be that threatening? Was this his first try or just his last in a long career? Did someone push him into desperation or was it his own fault?
We all want to believe, on one hand, that violent criminal acts are perpetrated by evil people who deserve to to put down like rabid dogs. On the other hand, we also want to believe that people don't act this way out of choice, but are driven to them in despair or desperation. We want to understand if it's a "rabid dog" deserving of being put down or some poor soul who is probably relieved of his own suffering.
Some of you will say it doesn't matter one whit if he was a "rabid dog" or some loser always making bad choices or "forced" into crime to supply his drug habit or pay off his bookie. To some extent, that may be true. But it's only natural to want reassurance that taking his life was the right thing to do.
I do not thing someone should tote a peace until they have the true concept of what death means. When you are aquainted with the true meaning of death, you'll understand carrying a peace and it wont' be just to save your own ass.
In fact, i see many folks on forums like this one, who talk about their carrying experiences. These people are drawing their firearms for silly things, such as a crack head asking them for money. That does not require a firearm. Some folks, just don't realize what it means for someone to actually die, stop living. You do not need to point a gun at people who ask you for money or beer. I see this everywhere where people do this, according to what they say here. I hope we never meet, and i do not want my family near those people.
In fact, i see many folks on forums like this one, who talk about their carrying experiences. These people are drawing their firearms for silly things, such as a crack head asking them for money. That does not require a firearm. Some folks, just don't realize what it means for someone to actually die, stop living. You do not need to point a gun at people who ask you for money or beer. I see this everywhere where people do this, according to what they say here. I hope we never meet, and i do not want my family near those people.
I've had to "draw" exactly twice in the last 34-35 years or so and both times the situation de-escalated rapidly, which I am mightily thankful for. I never was put in a position to have to kill anyone while I was in the military and I hope I never have to do it for the rest of my life, however long that may be.
The one and only time I've had loaded guns pointed directly at my head, i did not draw my firearm. I went out swinging, grabbed one of the guns, threw it under a stove. My friend got the othergun and threw it into a hallway. If i'd have drawn the little .32 revolver from my pocket, i'd be shot dead. It doesnt matter what gun i had on me, if it was a .45 1911, or a 44 magnum python, i'd have been shot straight in the face dead by the time it would have taken to actually draw and aim the gun. It took quick desperate action, and sheer force to save my face. When this occured, just them knowing i had a gun would have gotten me killed.
A firearm is not something people can act like a cop with. It will get you shot. Someone wants your money, and you go for a gun, you are dead unless they don't already have a gun on you. Guns are guns. If someone puts a knife to your child's throat, then shoot them in the face. But in MOST cases of violence, and agression, drawing a gun can get you flat out killed. It isn't a silly cop thing where you can be omnipotent. Doesn't work like that.
A firearm is not something people can act like a cop with. It will get you shot. Someone wants your money, and you go for a gun, you are dead unless they don't already have a gun on you. Guns are guns. If someone puts a knife to your child's throat, then shoot them in the face. But in MOST cases of violence, and agression, drawing a gun can get you flat out killed. It isn't a silly cop thing where you can be omnipotent. Doesn't work like that.
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