Enough of this P99 crap
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It's just an ad slogan. This Bud really isn't for you, and Quality isn't really Job One at Ford, selling cars is.
(...and about HK's "No Compromise" nonsense; why did the precision-machined P9S and P7Mx get superceded by the injection-molded USP? )With the SIGpro and the P-99 demonstrating the possibilities of modular polymer grip frames, it's a wonder Glock hasn't followed suit already, especially considering that grip shape is the most-frequent complaint against the Austrian pistols.
Of course they've made changes; gun companies do that all the time. If the P-99 survives in the savagely competetive plastic pistol marketplace (which I hope they do; more gun choices are better gun choices) they'll make some changes over time, too. Replacing that cheesy, fragile plastic punch for drifting out the grip rollpins would be a nice start; if I had a dollar for every one of those I've seen broken, I believe I could buy a P-99.
The SW99 is a lot different. I will agree with you that it is a piece of crap. And that gun was redone to make it "politically Correct"
All I will say is sit back and watch. The P99 is being used by police forces in England, France and Germany. It is also in use with the Miami county Sheriff's department.
P99
All I will say is sit back and watch. The P99 is being used by police forces in England, France and Germany. It is also in use with the Miami county Sheriff's department.
P99
Although the P-99 is, IME, on average more accurate than a Glock, I'd be careful before taking Gun Tests' word on much of anything. Whoever said that that magazine should be called A Bunch Of Ordinary Joes Who Don't Usually Own Ransom Rests Or Chronographs Go Shootin' was pretty close to the mark.
(I'm pretty sure SIG did the modular grip thing first with the SIGpro. They were definitely first to the US market with it, although I'm not 100% which gun's gestation began first.)
P99
Want to compare the few departments you listed with the 70% of leo's using glocks. Also I owned the Walther and I own several glocks Glocks are perfection. I have owned sigs, beretta's, HK's and I have found glocks to be the best just as have most other cops. The SW99 is the same gun as the P99 only difference is the external appearance and the stamp saying smith and wesson vs walther. Get a grip you bought a pos just admit it.
PAT
Want to compare the few departments you listed with the 70% of leo's using glocks. Also I owned the Walther and I own several glocks Glocks are perfection. I have owned sigs, beretta's, HK's and I have found glocks to be the best just as have most other cops. The SW99 is the same gun as the P99 only difference is the external appearance and the stamp saying smith and wesson vs walther. Get a grip you bought a pos just admit it.
PAT
355,
If they are the same, why are they made by two different companies? (with the exception being the frame) They are not the same. They don't look alike. The slide and barrel are made from different metals and are finished differently. So to call them the same, ha. The SW99's that NJSP ordered were changed even more from the original design. Shall we put a manual safety on your Glock???
No I don't have a POS. I've also owned all those guns you've mentioned and guess what's in my safe now? None of those listed.
P99
If they are the same, why are they made by two different companies? (with the exception being the frame) They are not the same. They don't look alike. The slide and barrel are made from different metals and are finished differently. So to call them the same, ha. The SW99's that NJSP ordered were changed even more from the original design. Shall we put a manual safety on your Glock???
No I don't have a POS. I've also owned all those guns you've mentioned and guess what's in my safe now? None of those listed.
P99
"What it's for" and "What it winds up getting used for" are frequently two different things.
For instance, the little plastic hood and rod that get included with Glocks are supposed to be used for loading mags and cleaning bores, but they usually get used to collect dust or fill trashcans.
Tamara,
I let a Range Officer shoot my P-99. His first shot at 10 yards was maybe 1\8 inch off absolute dead center. That was not using a rest. That amazed me.
Your quote is probably by someone who didn't like their reviews on some type of gun. Amazing how so many people take things so personal. I trust the reviews from Gun Tests far more than any input I get off a forum.
What I read from Gun Tests and what I have seen with my own eyes are almost identical. And not just with respect to the P-99.They have reviewed most of my pistols at some point.
Ransom Rest? I don't have one of those when I am in situation on the street. Hold on Mr BG let me set up my Ransom rest, I sure don't use one at the range.
I suppose you prefer reviews in a magazine like "American Handgunner", "Combat Handguns" etc. Do you like the term "knock down power", exciting isn't it? Knock down power, sounds way too cool. Ayoob likes it too.
Now I am defending not only the P-99 but a magazine that does not take paid advertising. All that because the P-99 is a fine handgun.
I let a Range Officer shoot my P-99. His first shot at 10 yards was maybe 1\8 inch off absolute dead center. That was not using a rest. That amazed me.
Your quote is probably by someone who didn't like their reviews on some type of gun. Amazing how so many people take things so personal. I trust the reviews from Gun Tests far more than any input I get off a forum.
What I read from Gun Tests and what I have seen with my own eyes are almost identical. And not just with respect to the P-99.They have reviewed most of my pistols at some point.
Ransom Rest? I don't have one of those when I am in situation on the street. Hold on Mr BG let me set up my Ransom rest, I sure don't use one at the range.
I suppose you prefer reviews in a magazine like "American Handgunner", "Combat Handguns" etc. Do you like the term "knock down power", exciting isn't it? Knock down power, sounds way too cool. Ayoob likes it too.
Now I am defending not only the P-99 but a magazine that does not take paid advertising. All that because the P-99 is a fine handgun.
"Want to compare the few departments you listed with the 70% of leo's using glocks. "
Oh yea that's really fair. Lets see the Glock's been out since the 80's and the P99 has been out since '94-95. Didn't it take Glock a few years to get to were they are now? I will say that old Gaston is a great marketer. He knows how spin his words to sell something. Like I said, lets give it 5 more years and we'll see what happens.
Did your commanders in Bethel, AK test all makes of guns or did they go with the cheapest gun they could buy? Its my understanding that Gaston give a huge discount to departments that buy his gun. I know this to be true because my friend bought his jam-o-matic Glock for less than $400. That included his hi-caps! Like I said Gaston is a great business man.
P99
Oh yea that's really fair. Lets see the Glock's been out since the 80's and the P99 has been out since '94-95. Didn't it take Glock a few years to get to were they are now? I will say that old Gaston is a great marketer. He knows how spin his words to sell something. Like I said, lets give it 5 more years and we'll see what happens.
Did your commanders in Bethel, AK test all makes of guns or did they go with the cheapest gun they could buy? Its my understanding that Gaston give a huge discount to departments that buy his gun. I know this to be true because my friend bought his jam-o-matic Glock for less than $400. That included his hi-caps! Like I said Gaston is a great business man.
P99
It doesn't amaze me; I've seen my roommate stand flat-footed and put a full mag from his P-99 into a 1'x2' rock over 200yds away. I've fired it and watched him fire it and with the exception of a handfull of wheelguns, my P7M8, a couple of 1911's and his P-225, the Walther shot the nicest groups at the range with the least effort I've experienced in years. They're darned accurate.
No, my quote was from someone whose handgun knowledge eclipses mine, and who (like me) noticed the inconsistency of tests in Gun Tests. Some are thourough and scientific. Some seem like high school science projects. Some turn in results that accord with what I've seen over my 16 years in this hobby, and others have results that must come from a parallel universe or are caused by a massive unfamiliarity with what they're trying to study.
If it makes you happy.
When you come up with a better way of testing mechanical accuracy that removes as many shooter-induced variables as possible, let us know.
No, I prefer reviews based on my own experience and those of a handful of people I know and whose opinions have proven reliable over time.
As far as folks whose reviews you can trust on forums, I'd recommend starting by ignoring those that use the words "rules", "best", "ultimate", "sucks" and "tactical".
(Although American Handgunner is worth flipping through for the pretty pictures.
)
Once AGAIN you amaze me with your complete ignorance about the subjects that you so vehemently argue!
I am truly in awe of the depths of your ignorance!
Lets look at the SW99 and the P99.
hmmmm. externally they look different.
How about the measurements?
SW99...OAL 7.125"
P99...OAL 7"
1/8" thats not much, but it is different.
SW99...weight 25.4oz.
P99...weight 25oz.
pretty close, 1/2oz. we'll call it a draw.
How about the materials used.
SW99...slide is Melonite treated stainless steel.
P99...slide is Tenifer treated hardened steel.
Quite a bit of difference there.
Now to what really counts.
SW99...Slide and all upper internals, made by S&W in Mass. USA
P99...slide and all upper internals, made in Germany.
Why is this so important? Because Walther engineered the P99, S&W just licensed the plans. When you compare a P99 to a SW99 the superior fit and finish of the Walther are immediately apparent. If you want an even more dramatic comparison of Walther vs. S&W quality control, compare a Walther P88 with a S&W Performance Center pistol. The Walther once again beats the S&W on fit and finish, and this is comparing a "assembly line" Walther with a "factory custom" S&W.
I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with the P99, maybe you got a lemon, just like i'm sure many people are sorry that they bought a Glock that later KB'd.
But your one man crusade against anything non-Glock is just tiresome.
P-99 vs SW-99
NMGlocker: Maybe he got a first run SW99 and is trying to pass it off as a P-99. Maybe he doesn't know there is a difference.
When S&W started producing the SW-99 Walther got an example of the product. The quality was so lacking they had S&W stop production. Walther engineers actually came to teach Smith how to build it correctly. That help never made it comparable but it did get a little better. There weren't but a couple thousand made before Walther tried to help out.
Having held and shot both the SW99 and the P-99 I can only assume one thing: When Walther sold the rights to Smith they either sold the specs a little sloppier or they made Smith agree never to match the quality of the German made.
I can understand. If I was going to sell production rights of my newest model to another company who was then going to compete with me, I would make sure they did not make it better or the same. That is the only way I can figure why there is so much difference. Other than possibly that Smith isn't as good as I thought. After all, their bread and butter are Wheelers and never really been semi-auto.
It does make for an interesting story though.
NMGlocker: Maybe he got a first run SW99 and is trying to pass it off as a P-99. Maybe he doesn't know there is a difference.
When S&W started producing the SW-99 Walther got an example of the product. The quality was so lacking they had S&W stop production. Walther engineers actually came to teach Smith how to build it correctly. That help never made it comparable but it did get a little better. There weren't but a couple thousand made before Walther tried to help out.
Having held and shot both the SW99 and the P-99 I can only assume one thing: When Walther sold the rights to Smith they either sold the specs a little sloppier or they made Smith agree never to match the quality of the German made.
I can understand. If I was going to sell production rights of my newest model to another company who was then going to compete with me, I would make sure they did not make it better or the same. That is the only way I can figure why there is so much difference. Other than possibly that Smith isn't as good as I thought. After all, their bread and butter are Wheelers and never really been semi-auto.
It does make for an interesting story though.
P99er,
Agreed! I'm going to drop it now. I just can't believe it when the glucksters get all bent out of shape when you call them on their "perfection" crap. I think the Glock is a good gun, but hardly perfection. They aren't all that great and yes they do jamb, just like any other gun out there. That's why it is always wise to test a variety of ammo before settling on just one brand.
P99
Agreed! I'm going to drop it now. I just can't believe it when the glucksters get all bent out of shape when you call them on their "perfection" crap. I think the Glock is a good gun, but hardly perfection. They aren't all that great and yes they do jamb, just like any other gun out there. That's why it is always wise to test a variety of ammo before settling on just one brand.
P99
"Er, which laender use the P-99? "
Tamara,
I can't remember off hand. Maybe I'm wrong on this one. However I do know for fact that there are police forces in Portugal, Spain, Malaysia, England(Devonshire and Notinghamshire) and I believe its Miami County Sheriff's Department that are using the P99. (Actually the Notinghamshire are using the P990)
I'll see if I can figure out who it was in Germany that was using the P99.
I guess my main point is, look for the P99 to be used by more American Police forces in the near future.
P99
Tamara,
I can't remember off hand. Maybe I'm wrong on this one. However I do know for fact that there are police forces in Portugal, Spain, Malaysia, England(Devonshire and Notinghamshire) and I believe its Miami County Sheriff's Department that are using the P99. (Actually the Notinghamshire are using the P990)
I'll see if I can figure out who it was in Germany that was using the P99.
I guess my main point is, look for the P99 to be used by more American Police forces in the near future.
P99
Back to the price issue: Walthers, Glocks, and HKs are *all* overpriced. The cost of the materials in these guns and even the meager marketing is a tiny fraction of the cost. They're pieces of plastic and metal that make something shoot out the front. I would (and did) get a CZ-75 before any of these pistols.
That said, I don't think it's fair to say that the HK USPs aren't "worth more" than Glocks. They would be to me; if I were going to get a plasti-gun, it'd be a USP Compact because you can carry it cocked and locked, DA, DA with safety on, and so forth--whatever you prefer. As far as I'm concerned, DA trigger pulls stink and guns with no real manual safety stink. That's my opinion, but that's what makes a USP far more attractive to me.
Besides, where's the .45 P99?
That said, I don't think it's fair to say that the HK USPs aren't "worth more" than Glocks. They would be to me; if I were going to get a plasti-gun, it'd be a USP Compact because you can carry it cocked and locked, DA, DA with safety on, and so forth--whatever you prefer. As far as I'm concerned, DA trigger pulls stink and guns with no real manual safety stink. That's my opinion, but that's what makes a USP far more attractive to me.
Besides, where's the .45 P99?
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