Alabama Shooter
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That is not an example of vigilantism at all even if he is not a police officer.
engaging the active shooter
- Thread starter W.E.G.
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That is not an example of vigilantism at all even if he is not a police officer.
Tactical Jackalope
New member
So what would you call it?
Someone not trained to assist someone who is trained and doing their job, isn't very wise unless it's life or death.
I wouldn't let a person who isn't a law enforcement officer assist me, especially armed. If they want to assist so much, join the force. I don't know them, their intentions, or anything at all.
I asked the OP that I quoted for his reasoning. As I do not know, maybe he was off duty?
Regardless to add. He was with his wife, who most likely was in the line of fire as well. For what? A breaking and entering? Is it that worth it?
Leave it to law enforcement.
Alabama Shooter
New member
In many places it is the law that if a law enforcement officer requests assistance from people in making an arrest that people are required to provide it. Texas provides an example of that with it written into the state legal code. Refusal to provide assistance can result in the arrest and prosecution of the refuser as well.
Vigilantism is working outside the law. Assisting an officer is; assisting a law enforcement officer in his duties.
I am not sure I understand. Is your post implying that his wife can not assist also? So far as "worth it" I can't really say. People need to make up their own mind about that.
Vigilantism is working outside the law. Assisting an officer is; assisting a law enforcement officer in his duties.
I am not sure I understand. Is your post implying that his wife can not assist also? So far as "worth it" I can't really say. People need to make up their own mind about that.
Tactical Jackalope
New member
Yeah, assistance was sufficient enough. Calling it in.
Personally I blame the officers on scene.
And no...I didn't see anywhere in his story of his wife assisting. Did you?
Personally I blame the officers on scene.
And no...I didn't see anywhere in his story of his wife assisting. Did you?
zombietactics
New member
I'm in Northern California, and the picture changes pretty radically depending upon which department you are dealing with. The Sheriff's deputies I know are pretty vocal about the fact that they are (mostly) grateful when an armed citizen offers assistance. This is likely because they cover a wide territory and are often on calls alone. Backup is far away. It also has something to do with the fact that they actively court a positive relationship with hunters and CCW carriers.
Some of the local PD are less inclined towards any citizen involvement, and actively dissuade it. I imagine this has to do with the fact that uniformed backup is usually pretty close by.
Some of the local PD are less inclined towards any citizen involvement, and actively dissuade it. I imagine this has to do with the fact that uniformed backup is usually pretty close by.
Tactical Jackalope
New member
^ you see. Now that makes sense. Given the area.
Here in Miami, where you said something about back up being close? Is exactly where my head is.
Good point. A city has better back up close by.
Here in Miami, where you said something about back up being close? Is exactly where my head is.
Good point. A city has better back up close by.
Perhaps a bit of clarification...
There are quite a few variables that are not mentioned here. Is the poster in active law enforcement--either full time or as a reserve/auxiliary officer? If not, are they well known to local LE?
Is the poster retired LE?
Is the poster on duty as a Security Officer?
If the answer is none of the above, then...well, let me put it to you all this way: If I am dispatched to a burg call, alarm or break in and I arrive and see you drawing a firearm--guess what? You just earned yourself some time in the prone position while I relieve you of your firearm, place you in restraints, and find out what you're doing.
Why, you might ask? After all, you are simply stepping up and trying to help...right?
Folks...I DON'T KNOW THAT. Neither I or any other officer knows that.
I do not know what you're doing. You might be a good guy. You might also be the armed lookout for those people inside. I just don't know.
And I'm sure not betting my life on you being the good guy until I find out for certain.
If it's sorted out fairly quickly, I am going to tell you to get your wife out of harm's way, and KEEP THAT DOGGONED GUN HOLSTERED for the time being.
Moreover, unless someone is in immediate danger, I am NOT going in there by myself. There are faster ways to commit suicide.
Finally, if I involve you at any stage of the process, guess what? I have now assumed full liability for your health and well being. I've also put my Department at liability.
Yeah, it stinks, but that's the way it is.
Would I ask the regular Joes and Janes for help if I needed it? Of course I will. And--if I or another officer is taking fire and someone engages the BG from defilade and takes them down, that's very well appreciated, thank you very much.
This is a building clearing scenario from another post...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5306054&postcount=49
Summary: you do NOT want to be the one standing there with a gun in your hand when we arrive on a hot call. Not a good choice...at all.
There are quite a few variables that are not mentioned here. Is the poster in active law enforcement--either full time or as a reserve/auxiliary officer? If not, are they well known to local LE?
Is the poster retired LE?
Is the poster on duty as a Security Officer?
If the answer is none of the above, then...well, let me put it to you all this way: If I am dispatched to a burg call, alarm or break in and I arrive and see you drawing a firearm--guess what? You just earned yourself some time in the prone position while I relieve you of your firearm, place you in restraints, and find out what you're doing.
Why, you might ask? After all, you are simply stepping up and trying to help...right?
Folks...I DON'T KNOW THAT. Neither I or any other officer knows that.
I do not know what you're doing. You might be a good guy. You might also be the armed lookout for those people inside. I just don't know.
And I'm sure not betting my life on you being the good guy until I find out for certain.
If it's sorted out fairly quickly, I am going to tell you to get your wife out of harm's way, and KEEP THAT DOGGONED GUN HOLSTERED for the time being.
Moreover, unless someone is in immediate danger, I am NOT going in there by myself. There are faster ways to commit suicide.
Finally, if I involve you at any stage of the process, guess what? I have now assumed full liability for your health and well being. I've also put my Department at liability.
Yeah, it stinks, but that's the way it is.
Would I ask the regular Joes and Janes for help if I needed it? Of course I will. And--if I or another officer is taking fire and someone engages the BG from defilade and takes them down, that's very well appreciated, thank you very much.
This is a building clearing scenario from another post...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5306054&postcount=49
Summary: you do NOT want to be the one standing there with a gun in your hand when we arrive on a hot call. Not a good choice...at all.
Alabama Shooter
New member
I hear you. Not everywhere is like that.
And if it was you and your family being shot at and a civilian non leo concealed carrier had a chance to stop the shooter with a single shot you would want him to keep his gun holstered and sneak out of there thereby saving himself and leaving everybody else at risk. I pray I am never in an accident and you are the first one on the scene because you are exactly the kind of guy who would turn his back and leave fearing you might get inconvenienced, your shoes might get soiled and it would take precious minutes of your time to render first aid and call for an ambulance.
Vigilantism is gearing up to punish somebody you assume is a law breaker without benefit of lawmen, judge or jury, you are the sole judge.
A man taking out a spree shooter if he is capable of doing so is a good citizen. Apparently a lot of people find that to be a hard concept to grasp.
I've served in the military. Even spent a few years as a security officer. Had some police training. My 'bearing and/or demeanor may have had something to do with his response. Backup was several minutes away. Wife was armed but stayed out of the way in the car. I offered, he accepted.
The area in question is very bad. About 50 murders within a few blocks. Several at my shop. He may even have recognized me from some other incident. My home isn't far away and once a police chase ended a block from there. The LEO in foot pursuit banged on the house as he went past and asked me to back him up. THAT ONE got complicated when 7-8 more PD showed up!
Once, we saw PD lose a footchase. I knew hte area and asked if the two LEO's wanted to ride in the back of the truck. They did and we rounded up two bad guys. A crowd of about 70-80 gathered while waiting for backup which was 30 minutes away. Some A-hole in the crowd drew on the cops and I drew on himbefore the LEO quite realized what was happening. The hole took off running as backup arrived too at the same time.
Look up Blackwell, Hillside Court, Essex Village in Richmond Va. My base of operations, FWIW.
Not a vigilante.
The area in question is very bad. About 50 murders within a few blocks. Several at my shop. He may even have recognized me from some other incident. My home isn't far away and once a police chase ended a block from there. The LEO in foot pursuit banged on the house as he went past and asked me to back him up. THAT ONE got complicated when 7-8 more PD showed up!
Once, we saw PD lose a footchase. I knew hte area and asked if the two LEO's wanted to ride in the back of the truck. They did and we rounded up two bad guys. A crowd of about 70-80 gathered while waiting for backup which was 30 minutes away. Some A-hole in the crowd drew on the cops and I drew on himbefore the LEO quite realized what was happening. The hole took off running as backup arrived too at the same time.
Look up Blackwell, Hillside Court, Essex Village in Richmond Va. My base of operations, FWIW.
Not a vigilante.
"If the answer is none of the above, then...well, let me put it to you all this way: If I am dispatched to a burg call, alarm or break in and I arrive and see you drawing a firearm--guess what? You just earned yourself some time in the prone position while I relieve you of your firearm, place you in restraints, and find out what you're doing."
From my call, PD knew a civilian was in the area. I flashed my lights, got out and said I could cover his back, and I slowly drew, palming my firearm, holding it out and above my head. He said OK. I wasn't the least bit threatening.
It seemed like a good idea at the time. PD seem to appreciate good citizens.
If I was in NYC, I'd turn my back and let them stew in their own mess.
The area is one that for years, PD was not allowed to even exit the vehicle until one or two more units arrived.
From my call, PD knew a civilian was in the area. I flashed my lights, got out and said I could cover his back, and I slowly drew, palming my firearm, holding it out and above my head. He said OK. I wasn't the least bit threatening.
It seemed like a good idea at the time. PD seem to appreciate good citizens.
If I was in NYC, I'd turn my back and let them stew in their own mess.
The area is one that for years, PD was not allowed to even exit the vehicle until one or two more units arrived.
This was a B&E? A burglary? With a witnessed subject going inside? Why would ANY LEO then enter the building? Surround the building. The guy will come out either sooner (if he doesn't know you're there) or later (if he does know you're there).
I can't see ANY situation where ANY LEO should be entering a B&E at that initial point in the scenario. Never mind the "unknown citizen covering me" aspect.
Sgt Lumpy - n0eq
I can't see ANY situation where ANY LEO should be entering a B&E at that initial point in the scenario. Never mind the "unknown citizen covering me" aspect.
Sgt Lumpy - n0eq
Anaconda1492
New member
"I've been badly injured and come very close to losing my life while at work and while enjoying the outdoors, theres some level of risk in just about anything you do. "
Life isn't perfect we must accept that with guns and people their will be shootings. The same way that we accept that if we have cars people will die in accidents or even vehicular homicide, or if we have food people will die from heart attacks, or if we have cigarettes people will get cancer. Its a fact of life, perhaps we should ban all these things? You chances of getting shoot at indiscriminately are VERY VERY LOW, which is amazing considering the amount of guns in the country. Furthermore, you can even reduce the affects of these shootings if you are armed in most situations. Again life isn't perfect sometimes the bad way will get the upper hand. With unarmed law abiding citizens we almost guarantee he will continue killing til police arrive. By the time they do arrive at that point it is likely the action will be over and you wont have to worry about being shoot at by a cop.
You do realize that "active shooting" means the period of time in which shots are being fired, right? So lots of "active shootings" have happened in gun shops, but not too many mass shootings.
Well obviously they prove that having an armed citizen could help the situation, which is the point I was really aiming for.
Life isn't perfect we must accept that with guns and people their will be shootings. The same way that we accept that if we have cars people will die in accidents or even vehicular homicide, or if we have food people will die from heart attacks, or if we have cigarettes people will get cancer. Its a fact of life, perhaps we should ban all these things? You chances of getting shoot at indiscriminately are VERY VERY LOW, which is amazing considering the amount of guns in the country. Furthermore, you can even reduce the affects of these shootings if you are armed in most situations. Again life isn't perfect sometimes the bad way will get the upper hand. With unarmed law abiding citizens we almost guarantee he will continue killing til police arrive. By the time they do arrive at that point it is likely the action will be over and you wont have to worry about being shoot at by a cop.
You do realize that "active shooting" means the period of time in which shots are being fired, right? So lots of "active shootings" have happened in gun shops, but not too many mass shootings.
Well obviously they prove that having an armed citizen could help the situation, which is the point I was really aiming for.
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Tactical Jackalope
New member
Old Grump is confused. So I shall clarify.
I was speaking in the case of Tiner666, not a mass shooting. The scenario he was involved in.
Please read up an catch up on the thread before you start blindly accusing someone over the Internet like an Internet commando. You don't know or what I would or wouldn't do. Your insults were sophomoric and again, blind. Yet slightly entertaining. No need to sum up ones demeanor in a negative way from a LE standpoint on ONE scenario. I know your username is "Old Grump" I see the "grump" part but not the "old" rather childish.
Tiner666, so you're somewhat known in the community enough so that when you call or appear on scene you're trusted I guess. From a LE standpoint.
Powderman summed up my views quite perfectly. I don't need to say anymore on that part if you read his response.
How was that conjured up into being a "coward"? Beats me. Some people have a hard time comprehending what they read.
Anyone can say anything they want here on "what they'd do". Fact of the matter is you don't know 100% unless you've been in that situation before and/or trained to be in that situation. From here it's mostly speculation and all for the sake of conversation.
I was speaking in the case of Tiner666, not a mass shooting. The scenario he was involved in.
Please read up an catch up on the thread before you start blindly accusing someone over the Internet like an Internet commando. You don't know or what I would or wouldn't do. Your insults were sophomoric and again, blind. Yet slightly entertaining. No need to sum up ones demeanor in a negative way from a LE standpoint on ONE scenario. I know your username is "Old Grump" I see the "grump" part but not the "old" rather childish.
Tiner666, so you're somewhat known in the community enough so that when you call or appear on scene you're trusted I guess. From a LE standpoint.
Powderman summed up my views quite perfectly. I don't need to say anymore on that part if you read his response.
How was that conjured up into being a "coward"? Beats me. Some people have a hard time comprehending what they read.
Anyone can say anything they want here on "what they'd do". Fact of the matter is you don't know 100% unless you've been in that situation before and/or trained to be in that situation. From here it's mostly speculation and all for the sake of conversation.
First....
Tinner, I apologize if I seemed like I was casting any aspersions toward you. I did not mean to do so.
If your local LE know you, work with you, and have come to welcome your aid ans assistance, that's a VERY good thing. My experience thus far has taught me that I would not be making a wise decision to respond to a call like that and pass someone who is not an LEO with a drawn gun.
Second...
There is a WORLD of difference in answering a burg call and an active shooter. As has been noted, the active shooter scenario means that caps are being popped and bullets are flying.
I have long maintained that a good guy or girl who is armed can put a halt to that madness really quickly, and usually with good effect.
Of course, when the call goes out and the radio is toned out, I'm doing my level best to redline that engine in the patrol unit, lights on and siren wailing. I'm headed to the scene--and when I get there the rifle gets snatched from the rack and I'm chambering a round to prepare to enter a shootout.
Unfortunately, the sad truth is this: My patrol unit will to around 135 mph, tops. A 55 grain bullet from an AR or other firearm in .223 is moving at 2045 mph. So--by the very nature of the beast, even if we are right around the corner when the balloon goes up, we STILL arrive after the fact.
Apologies to all for the thread jack....
Tinner, I apologize if I seemed like I was casting any aspersions toward you. I did not mean to do so.
If your local LE know you, work with you, and have come to welcome your aid ans assistance, that's a VERY good thing. My experience thus far has taught me that I would not be making a wise decision to respond to a call like that and pass someone who is not an LEO with a drawn gun.
Second...
There is a WORLD of difference in answering a burg call and an active shooter. As has been noted, the active shooter scenario means that caps are being popped and bullets are flying.
I have long maintained that a good guy or girl who is armed can put a halt to that madness really quickly, and usually with good effect.
Of course, when the call goes out and the radio is toned out, I'm doing my level best to redline that engine in the patrol unit, lights on and siren wailing. I'm headed to the scene--and when I get there the rifle gets snatched from the rack and I'm chambering a round to prepare to enter a shootout.
Unfortunately, the sad truth is this: My patrol unit will to around 135 mph, tops. A 55 grain bullet from an AR or other firearm in .223 is moving at 2045 mph. So--by the very nature of the beast, even if we are right around the corner when the balloon goes up, we STILL arrive after the fact.
Apologies to all for the thread jack....
I apologize, I have been reading all the posts but I speed read and miss a point here and there and I was reacting to the posters who say you should duck and run when faced with a mass shooter even if you could do something. Not the first time I messed up, and going by my past history won;t be the last but I'll try and slow down and take the context in more carefully.
Bob
Yep, I'm both old and a Grump but mostly I mean well.
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